Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 I was discussing the best offenses and defenses of the Snyder era with a pal. I made the argument that the 2000 defense was extremely good, but that has been forgotten in the lore of that season. But what also has been forgotten is how close that season was to working. Come back with me to November 5, 2000. You will find me in - of all places - a Damons in Manassas. I was working in Manassas then and had gone in on Sunday morning to catch up on work before the game. Anyway. Here's the skinny. That Redskins team had started out 6-2. It had the annual home loss on Monday Night Football the week before to an excellent Titans team. That game was a total **** show which in retrospect set the template for all Snyder Era Monday Night **** shows. Derrick Mason had a 69 yard punt return. Samari Rolle had an 81 yard pick six as time expired in the first half. Brad Johnson was picked three times total. You could very easily mark this as the day it all came crumbling down - and never really got repaired - if you wanted to. But I choose not to. Bad losses happen in a season. Even to good teams. The Patriots have a string of bizarre September losses over the past 20 years. Every good team has a "how the hell did we lose that game?" game. What they don't have is two of those in a row. The next week, Jeff George is filling in for an injured Brad Johnson (Johnson was not formerly benched until Norv was fired) against a truly abysmal Cardinals' team. This is a road game on a short week, but this is a team that finished 3-13 with the 30th ranked defense and the 24th ranked offense. This is a game that you dominate and go into the bye week at 7-3 with a monster match-up with the Rams coming up. That did not happen. For those of who you forget, this is the Aeneas Williams Game. The Redskins have a dominating opening drive and Stephen Davis is about to fall into the end zone when a linebacker strips him. The ball rolls literally 5 yards into the zone and Aeneas Williams picks it up and sets a record with a 104 yard fumble return. The Skins lose the game 16-15. The Redskins had 431 total yards. The Cardinals had 178. The Redskins had the ball for close to 40 minutes. On the other side of the coin, the Redskins missed an extra point and two field goals. The kickoff team gave up a 78 yard return. These were not two losses in a row. These were two inexplicable losses in a row. The second one was to a terrible team that played terribly. It was at this point, I think, that the belief that the Skins will always screw things up really came into being. After the bye, the actually beat the Greatest Show on Turf Rams. But that would literally be the last highlight for the team until Joe Gibbs showed up in 2004 (seemingly). Here's what happens if the team wins that game. They go into the bye at 7-3. They beat the Rams to go to 8-3 and are at that point, the team to beat in the NFC. The next week, they have the Eagles for what is essentially a game to decide the division. Maybe the result of that game is different. (That's the Eddie Murray game for those you keeping track). They win that game, and they probably end up with a bye in the playoffs and basically take the place of the Giants, who went to the Super Bowl and got gutted by the Ravens. But the Skins had already beaten Baltimore that year and were far better equipped to deal with that defense than the Giants were. I won't project a Super Bowl win, but I'm pretty comfortable in thinking that winning the Cardinals game puts the NFC title game in grasp. It almost guarantees that the team is controlling the wild card race, The Giants were inexplicably successful this year though I simply refuse to call them a "good team." Certainly, Norv doesn't get fired, Johnson is not run out of town, Coach "Robinsky" never happens, and Dan doesn't get the reputation that he is STILL living down. If anything, he looks like a genius for signing all these stars and completely changes how the NFL does business going forward. Marty certainly doesn't come in with the intent purpose of gutting the team. If anything, they spend more going into 2001 as Snyder has proven that his ideas can work. Instead, this pretty good team lost two games it had no business losing in back to back weeks. Snyder throws a late season temper tantrum. The team loses 2 of its last 3 and finishes 8-8. This begat Marty which begat Spurrier which begat Gibbs which begat Zorn. None of that happens if they win one game in November against a 3-13 team. Goodbye, dum dums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88Comrade2000 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 You are wrong. The day it went all South, was when Dan took over ownership of the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazel-Ra Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 Ahh yes good ol' Stevie Davis was always good for coughing up the rock at the worst possible time. Remember the Monday Night Battle of the 0-5s against Dallas. Davis had the 1st down that would have sealed the deal but fought more more yards while being gang tackled and coughed it up. I was over him after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 So basically the franchise turned to ass not long after Snyder purchased the team. Sounds about right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alwaysaskin Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 That 2000 team could have made a run, if it wasn’t for the kicking woes. Jacke’s Injury at the beginning of the year set the tone, I remember closing my eyes when they would go for field goals and extra points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hail2skins Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 My first thought was that obviously Ed Kleese is visiting LKB, who left himself logged into ES, allowing Kleese to type out a historical tour du force. I actually thought the Giants game, which we lost 9-7, was the Eddie Murray game. The Eagles game highlight that stood out to me was having two sets of downs inside the Philly 3 at some point in the second half on a drive and wound up with a field goal to show for it. Mainly due to Stephen Davis not playing due to injury, and thus we had to rely on Skip Hicks. Can't remember if we had injuries at wide receiver as well...….remember Andy Pollin describing Jeff George's task that day as being a "one-legged man in a butt-kicking contest." Anyway, even if we had beaten the Cardinals to be 8-3 after the win in STL (god, Arizona was a nightmare for the Skins in the 90s, even starting with Gibbs), Philly and NYG were 7-4 heading into those two games which really sealed our fate. Remember, Norv was 8-3 in 1996 after a win in Philly, and we managed to lose four straight, including the killer against the Cardinals (Kleese's favorite Redskin still remains Romeo Bandison), rendering the RFK finale against Dallas meaningless. In 2000, at 7-6, I don't think the team would've rallied to make the playoffs (although we did beat Tampa and the Rams that season, who both made the playoffs at 10-6) even if Norv had stayed. He certainly deserved to be fired after 2000, but not in the classless way Snyder did it after the Giants game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted October 2, 2019 Author Share Posted October 2, 2019 If I were Kleese, this would be a treatise about how I really enjoyed the 2000 season, because all the games were played at the time they were scheduled. Because all I ask of the Skins is that they field a team and look like they are giving it the ol' college try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skins4eva Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 2 hours ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said: Certainly, Norv doesn't get fired, Johnson is not run out of town, Coach "Robinsky" never happens, and Dan doesn't get the reputation that he is STILL living down. If anything, he looks like a genius for signing all these stars and completely changes how the NFL does business going forward. Marty certainly doesn't come in with the intent purpose of gutting the team. If anything, they spend more going into 2001 as Snyder has proven that his ideas can work. Instead, this pretty good team lost two games it had no business losing in back to back weeks. Snyder throws a late season temper tantrum. The team loses 2 of its last 3 and finishes 8-8. This begat Marty which begat Spurrier which begat Gibbs which begat Zorn. None of that happens if they win one game in November against a 3-13 team. Goodbye, dum dums. Norv was a terrible coach. He has a long and storied history of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. We always had one beautifully scripted offensive drive under Norv and then he didnt know what to do for the next 50 minutes of the game. As others have said, the day Dan Snyder bought this team is the day this franchise sunk into the abyss. The abyss seemingly is infinite. I keep thinking we've reached the bottom and then another basement level gets added on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 The issue with all of this is that since 1994, Norv was a bad coach who had undisciplined teams which lost games they shouldn’t lose every year. He took Marty’s 14-2 Chargers team and made it a 10-6 team in 1 year. His track record of coaching, and even coaching extremely talented teams was that they were undisciplined and lost games they should win. And we have that now in spades with stops with the Raiders and Chargers. A Norv Turner coached team was never going to win anything of note. Should Dan have fires him mid-season? No. Should be have been fired at some point before 2000? Yes. Should they Skins have beaten the Cards? Yes. Would it have mattered in the end? No. EDIT: I’d argue Norv being hires in 1994 was as damaging as just about anything. Because he lasted 6 years, couldn’t get along with and Dan thought he had to do something immediately because the team had been losing for 7 years when he bought the team. It empowered Dan to “do stuff.” Because the 1994-1998 Skins were between awful and terrible. So they had some success in 1999, and Dan tried to push it over the top in 2000, and then went nuts when Norv’s teams played like Norv’s teams had played like for the previous 6 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted October 2, 2019 Author Share Posted October 2, 2019 31 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said: EDIT: I’d argue Norv being hires in 1994 was as damaging as just about anything. Because he lasted 6 years, couldn’t get along with and Dan thought he had to do something immediately because the team had been losing for 7 years when he bought the team. It empowered Dan to “do stuff.” Because the 1994-1998 Skins were between awful and terrible. Norv is not exactly the Napoleon of Football, but he was over .500 in two of those awful, terrible, no good very bad years. I do think it's slightly exaggerated how bad he was. But I also don't think head coaches matter all that much except in the margins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kleese Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said: If I were Kleese, this would be a treatise about how I really enjoyed the 2000 season, because all the games were played at the time they were scheduled. Because all I ask of the Skins is that they field a team and look like they are giving it the ol' college try. This is half true. The ole’ college try actually doesn’t matter to me. The only thing I feel the Redskins “owe” me is to play the games as they are scheduled. From there it’s up to me to support, ignore, enjoy, discard, etc. At this point, anyone who claims they were “duped” or fooled into being excited... well, I don’t know what to tell you. Since 1993 I’d rank the Redskins AT BEST as the number 27th franchise in the NFL in terms of enjoyment given to fans. Browns, Bills, Bengals, Dolphins, Lions all in the bottom mix. You could rank the Redskins anywhere in there and I wouldn’t argue. But have I “enjoyed” it? Yes. It would probably take a long psychological profile to explain it, but this is ultimately a leisure activity and if I spend 25+ years pursuing a leisure activity that brings me no enjoyment, well, that’s really, really weird/sad. As for the premise of the thread. I do think the roots of our fall into the abyss began in earnest in 2000. That was a legitimately good team that just screwed it all up. Had some mix of bad luck too, but that roster wa solid. Snyder got a lot of grief for the off season spending spree, but most of it was on D and the team got WAY better on that side of the ball in 2000. The issue was that the offense regressed. Johnson wasn’t nearly as effective (and really he started to slide off as 1999 went on), Westbrook got hurt, and our kicking game was a mess. No doubt that Arizona game was a killer. But bouncing back to beat the Rams I felt at the time erased that loss. They were still in a good spot at 7-4. Basically just don’t lose BOTH home games to Eagles/Giants the next two weeks and they probably at least get a wild card. Well, they did lose both of course (by a total of five points). I’ll never forget the look on Norv’s face when he sent Eddie Murray out there to kick that last FG against the Giants. He knew, I knew it, Eddie knew it, everyone knew it. He had NO chance to make it. Yet Norv did it anyway despite the fact that the fourth down was makable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owa Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 Hmm, I don't know but I'm willing to give you credit for the current status of our toxic fan-base. Congrats! Edit: Oops thought I was quoting the R2000 guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hail2skins Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 1 hour ago, kleese said: Since 1993 I’d rank the Redskins AT BEST as the number 27th franchise in the NFL in terms of enjoyment given to fans. Browns, Bills, Bengals, Dolphins, Lions all in the bottom mix. You could rank the Redskins anywhere in there and I wouldn’t argue. But have I “enjoyed” it? Yes. It would probably take a long psychological profile to explain it, but this is ultimately a leisure activity and if I spend 25+ years pursuing a leisure activity that brings me no enjoyment, well, that’s really, really weird/sad. I think in football a lot of it is ritual and relatively scarcity. We basically only have the meaningful games (including playoffs) for five months of the year, as compared to 7-8 months in the other major sports. Plus only once per week during that five-month stretch on top of that. Its the main reason why I get quizzical when folks defend the low attendance at the live early season games or even the mid-season ones like Houston last season when the Skins were 6-3. "Well, everyone knows they've sucked for 20+ years, so why go?" Because you just never know what's going to happen, that's why. Now, the fact that the Skins probably charge too much (especially last year, even on Stubhub) for major portions of the seating bowl is a legitimate reason. This year is a different story, as the team has pretty much been relegated to spoiler status four weeks in. As for 2000, I don't think it would've mattered. As you said, the Skins bounced back after AZ to beat the Rams, but still had the injury woes and kicking problems heading into those two games. So I'm really not sure if the results of those two games turn out differently. The one that had the best chance to turn out different was the one against the Giants if Norv hadn't started Brad instead of Jeff. So they are at best 9-4 heading into Dallas, still battling both the Giants and Eagles for the division. I hate to bash Norv too much, but does anyone think he doesn't find a way to blow that game somehow and endure another ass-chewing from Dan as he did the previous season (after a loss in Dallas dropped the team to 4-2)? And then who knows what happens at Pittsburgh. Bottom line is that the 2000 team had been hyped up so much in the preseason, that I think anything short of an NFCCG appearance would've meant the end of Norv. But even though it is a good historical walk down memory lane, lets not lose sight that 18 seasons have gone by since that one. The biggest culprit in this stretch was Dan's obsession with big name coaches at the expense of a solid front office. I even include Gibbs in that...…..if you had brought him back in 2001, it might have made a bigger difference, but he was too old by 2004 that he was going to be able to stay around for any meaningful time. I do think its a bit ironic that, by finally not hiring a big name in Jay (only his last name is "big"), Snyder has the version of the coach he inherited when he bought the team. What direction he goes in next is anyone's guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KillBill26 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 I was at the AZ game. That was such a frustrating loss. Par for the course these days tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedBNG Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 With all due respect to the OP, the Norv era here was dismal no matter what would have happened in that game. He probably would have lost more games than Schott the next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volsmet Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 5 hours ago, hawgboy said: Ahh yes good ol' Stevie Davis was always good for coughing up the rock at the worst possible time. Remember the Monday Night Battle of the 0-5s against Dallas. Davis had the 1st down that would have sealed the deal but fought more more yards while being gang tackled and coughed it up. I was over him after that. Davis never failed to appear injured after a fumble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 This game does mark the turning point but not because of the loss. It was the start of the Dan Snyder decides who plays on game day era. He wanted Jeff George, the biggest punk in the NFL. Mr QBs are not responsible for leadership. The same Jeff G whose mommy literally came onto the field in Purdue to help him off after a sack (he was not injured, just had his feelings hurt) and un-enrolling him from Purdue because he was scared of getting sacked and no one liked him! The same Jeff G that ike in Oakland, Atl and Minn, before us, when he got sacked instead of helping him up, his respective Olines looked back as if to say, sucks for you. The day he signed Jeff G I sent my first letter to danny boy. I told him that for the first time in 30+ yrs of being a Redskins fan I was embarrassed, not because of wins and losses but the clear change that bringing in low class punks to the organization was now acceptable. I know in previous years they had few questionable guys, but nothing like Jeff I am a big cry baby George! It's been a painful trip down hill ever since. Each time you think the team has hit rock bottom danny boy finds and new low to hit. **** dan snyder! Little mini me piece of total ****! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RemoveSnyder Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 November 5 of 2000, pretty sure I was drunk or high at that time, or both. In college, screwing around. Back then on Madden I used Skip Hicks pretty epically. I think I got Hicks to something like a 12 year career, set records. What's the thread about? Quantum entanglement? Multiverse? Somewhere in the heavens the Washington Football Team of 2000 was successful. But ultimately, wouldn't have Dan's sizable demerits and deficiencies eventually surfaced, even if 2000 had bounced an inch in the right direction, here or there? Yes. I think so. Dan is who he is. The veil of his incompetence was pulled away then rather than disguising past the 2000 season. Time is the fire in which we burn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 Ugh. That Titans game.... Samari Rolle is still running... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RemoveSnyder Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 1 minute ago, Mr. Sinister said: Samari Rolle is still running... Right next to Bo Jackson. Proud Mary keep on burnin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 8 minutes ago, Monk4thaHALL said: Right next to Bo Jackson. Proud Mary keep on burnin. I was in 7th grade. God, I thought we were gonna be so awesome that year 🤦♂️. Dumb ass kids, man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illone Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 I missed that entire season because i was on a submarine, but ill take your word for it. I had a feeling early on that snyder was in over his head. For me it started with the drama over the sale itself as there was some weird stuff that went down. I dont recall the exact details but i just remember feeling awkward that JKC didnt keep the team in his family. I know he had his own drama going on, something about back taxes and ex-wives, but man i wish i never knew who snyder was. I wish he never bought the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88Comrade2000 Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 Dan Snyder never should guaranteed Norv's job in 1999, if he made the playoffs. Noone would've faulted Dan for letting Norv go after the 1999 season. New owner wanting his own guy. We know Jerry wanted Norv, we should've traded Norv to Jerry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hail2skins Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 21 minutes ago, Rdskns2000 said: Dan Snyder never should guaranteed Norv's job in 1999, if he made the playoffs. Noone would've faulted Dan for letting Norv go after the 1999 season. New owner wanting his own guy. We know Jerry wanted Norv, we should've traded Norv to Jerry. Yeah, because we've seen how much of Dan's "guys" have worked out here in the 18 seasons since. Short of getting Gibbs (who was unfireable) back several seasons before he ultimately did, nothing was going to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsFTW Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 7 minutes ago, hail2skins said: Short of getting Gibbs (who was unfireable) back several seasons before he ultimately did, nothing was going to work. Getting Gibbs back didn't work either. Lombardi reincarnated with Buddy Ryan running the defense wouldn't have worked either. Dumb and (alternating) Dumber > ALL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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