Is this the worst Redskins team in the last 20 years?

[purbeast]

13 hours ago, skinfan2k said:

Also, why the f did we draft a qb this year?  This team has zero i mean zero long term plan. The only reason u draft a qb that high if you think Gruden is here 3-5 more years.  We should have cut ties with him even though i think he is a great OC

Because the FO here is a ****ing joke.  There are multiple reports that Gruden didn't want Haskins but the FO did, and since there is always a complete disconnect between the FO and HC, the FO picked him anyways.

 

This team is just a complete dumster fire cluster ****.

[carex]

2 minutes ago, purbeast said:

Because the FO here is a ****ing joke.  There are multiple reports that Gruden didn't want Haskins but the FO did, and since there is always a complete disconnect between the FO and HC, the FO picked him anyways.

 

This team is just a complete dumster fire cluster ****.

 

I've had a feeling Gruden was always a placeholder this year

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

About the penalties...do we really believe that some guy like Gregg Williams is going to come in and make everyone drop and give him 20 over penalties, or cut his nose off to despite his face and bench starters and play even worse backups in their place, is going to do the trick?

 

I don't think guys keep getting penalties because they aren't afraid of the head coach or don't want to do extra drills.  That stuff might work with kids, but not with grown men.

[SemperFi Skins]

The players these days can't handle Gregg WIlliams... they are far too soft. They'd all be demanding trades and holding out. It's a generational issue

[Warhead36]

22 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

About the penalties...do we really believe that some guy like Gregg Williams is going to come in and make everyone drop and give him 20 over penalties, or cut his nose off to despite his face and bench starters and play even worse backups in their place, is going to do the trick?

 

I don't think guys keep getting penalties because they aren't afraid of the head coach or don't want to do extra drills.  That stuff might work with kids, but not with grown men.

I think people blame coaching too much on penalties. Players commit penalties because they get beat by their opponents, because they are...inferior players. No coach tells a guy to hold or line up offside.

[Smurf3]

What is amazing is that, in order to pad stats, they obviously make no effort to win the game as the clock becomes their enemy. No deep passes, no sideline passes, only short gains that the opposing team is happy to surrender but makes the final stats look more competitive when they really mean nothing. The team literally totally gives up in order to avoid further embarrassment and pad the stat sheet. The Eagles game was blatant in that regard as the Skins had a long time consuming drive at the end of Q4 that made the score and stats look better but eliminated any chance to actually win the game.

I think the late 50s teams of Eddie Lebaron, Dick James, Don Bossler, Bob Toniff (sp), and Johnny O would beat this team because they were tougher even if less talent.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

17 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I think people blame coaching too much on penalties. Players commit penalties because they get beat by their opponents, because they are...inferior players. No coach tells a guy to hold or line up offside.

Agreed.  I just find it hard to believe, no matter how awful a coach is, that they don’t emphasize penalties and walk around like it’s all good.

 

More often then not, penalties occur because a guy is beat and/or they lack the self discipline to discontinue making the same mistakes.  Particularly when you know the guy behind you is terrible or in the training room regularly.

5 minutes ago, Smurf3 said:

What is amazing is that, in order to pad stats, they obviously make no effort to win the game as the clock becomes their enemy. No deep passes, no sideline passes, only short gains

When the opposition pins their ears back, receivers don’t create separation and/or the QB holds the ball too long, it’s kind of hard to get garbage time stats.  

[carex]

22 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I think people blame coaching too much on penalties. Players commit penalties because they get beat by their opponents, because they are...inferior players. No coach tells a guy to hold or line up offside.

 

what was very interesting to me was I listened to the Skins game, watched part of the Bears/Vikings game, the end of Jags/Broncos and parts of the Cowboys/Saints and the only game I didn't hear some pretty consistent criticism of the refs was bears/Vikings.  So lots of teams are having trouble with the refs these days

[carex]

13 minutes ago, Smurf3 said:

What is amazing is that, in order to pad stats, they obviously make no effort to win the game as the clock becomes their enemy. No deep passes, no sideline passes, only short gains that the opposing team is happy to surrender but makes the final stats look more competitive when they really mean nothing. The team literally totally gives up in order to avoid further embarrassment and pad the stat sheet. The Eagles game was blatant in that regard as the Skins had a long time consuming drive at the end of Q4 that made the score and stats look better but eliminated any chance to actually win the game.

I think the late 50s teams of Eddie Lebaron, Dick James, Don Bossler, Bob Toniff (sp), and Johnny O would beat this team because they were tougher even if less talent.

 

dude, that is not why teams do that.  You take what they give you because every play where you do that you're gaining something.  You chuck it deep to some guy who has a defender glued to him you're giving up a down and gaining nothing.  Take what they give, maybe you break a tackle and go in for the score, maybe they grab your facemask by accident and you get another 15 yards and at the very least you're that much closer to gaining another set of four downs

[Spaceman Spiff]

Still a lot of football left, that's the only caveat.  

 

That being said, this certainly has the potential to be the worst team in the Snyder era, which is really saying something.  I don't get the feeling that this team can rally no matter how many f-bombs Jonathan Allen drops in a postgame interview or how many times Gruden says "We've gotta get better."  

 

The juice just doesn't seem to be there.  I was talking to a buddy of mine earlier today, he thinks they can go 0-16.  Odds are they don't, that's hard to pull off but I can certainly see a 1 win team.  Maybe we beat the Dolphins or catch another team on an off day.  But we just got soundly thumped by a poor team that was playing without their best player.  

 

I don't see this getting better any time soon.  I don't think any of us do.

[MariusVT]

I think there's a lot of talent on the roster and some glaring holes for sure, but they aren't as bad as the record shows.  What we're seeing is coaches that have lost the locker room and players that don't care about any leadership in the building.  It's not going to get better until Snyder cleans house and puts in a real football organization top to bottom, and if what's being said about Bruce being cemented in place, it's not going to get any better for a long time.

[Idaho fan]

1 hour ago, purbeast said:

Because the FO here is a ****ing joke.  There are multiple reports that Gruden didn't want Haskins but the FO did, and since there is always a complete disconnect between the FO and HC, the FO picked him anyways.

 

This team is just a complete dumster fire cluster ****.

Exactly.  There is no plan.  There is no direction.  They drafted a QB with the first pick because they figured its what they should do.  They are lost.  They have no idea what they are doing.  There are examples EVERYWHERE of how to run a franchise but Dan simply won't do it.  He continues to think he knows better.

Hire an actual GM (assuming one would even take the job).  Let that GM decide what to do about EVERYTHING and get the **** out of the way.  Put a plan in place and follow the plan

[volsmet]

8 hours ago, skinzplay said:

This team has a lot of talent. In the Snyder era, it's arguably the youngest and most talented group of players we've had. Unfortunately, the coaches do not know how to maximize the talent at their disposal, so the results on the field are as bad as what we've witnessed, collectively over the span of Snyder's tenure as owner.

 

 

We turned a 245lb freak Olb into a 285lb dt. It really didn’t take that long either. 

[kingdaddy]

Its the worst team I've seen...Question, when Bruce said "we're close", was he talking about getting the #1 overall pick? 

[BurgundyBooger]

2 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

Its the worst team I've seen...Question, when Bruce said "we're close", was he talking about getting the #1 overall pick? 

 

He was lost in thought, was probably referring to the sale of his house.

[skinfan2k]

2 hours ago, carex said:

 

I've had a feeling Gruden was always a placeholder this year

That's even worse.  Why are you having a placeholder and not cutting every single vet?  Norman, Kerrigan and any other old trash should be out in order to have a clean house for the next coach. 

[skinny21]

2 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I brought this up in another thread, but someone said to me last week that we've had 3 secondary coaches in 3 years, yet the same "communication" problems exist with each one.  At what point do we just have dumb players?

Or perhaps we aren’t playing players to their strengths and are coaching too complex of a scheme.  Added to that, although we had some breakdowns, Fuller, Breeland, Norman and Dunbar was a good group.  With Stroman and now Moreland out there (rookies in a complex system), poor coverage backers and an inability to cover TEs... our FS seems guilty of trying too hard and getting moved from his spot easily.  

2 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

You can have all the athletic ability in the world, but if you're dumb - you will be exposed.  We are regularly exposed.  Some want to say that it's just poorly coached, but it seems they've given it the old college try with different guys and none of them can get through.

 

Add on top of that, our middle linebackers always look lost, slow or both....for several seasons now.  And from a talent perspective - of those who actually play on offense, this is the least talented group they've fielded in some time.  It's just a perfect ****tail of unaddressed or poorly addressed issues most of us could see coming a mile away.  

 

2 hours ago, skinsmania123 said:

Is this the most penalized team in Redskins history?  If not, it surely is in the top 5.  What I have noticed for 10 years and my best friend was reminding me of this yesterday, is the lack of discipline on this team.  My friend always says that he cannot get over what he sees as the staple of the Skins teams regardless of who the players are, or who the coaches are and that is how undisciplined the team is as a whole.  Then the discussion is always the penalties and missed tackles that keep our D on the field.  The false starts, missed open receivers, and sometimes the drops which we have gone through that essentially stalls drives.  The are the nuts and bolts of this team. How it seems to be built and operating.   It will be Groundhog Day until the lesson is learned.  It is very much what @BurgundyBooger wrote.  Is Dan listening?  You almost need, hate him if you want, a dude like Gregg Williams to come in here and run it like a bootcamp for wayward boys....lol!

Yeah, the discipline is a glaring problem.  It’s an interesting dilemma to try to solve that I’ll get to later.  

2 hours ago, skinsmania123 said:

 

And then another mainstay is of course our secondary playing 5-10 yards off guys (sometimes it is a fear of getting beat long more then scheme), and then of course actually getting torched no matter what they do.   This year Norman is the patsy, or designated target they pick on successfully.  Collins, similar to Norman looks like another overpriced investment from FA.  Funny how Gettleman passed on both of them.  

Or playing tight man but not trying to put a hand on the receiver.  Drives me nuts.  

2 hours ago, skinsmania123 said:

 

And other mainstay is when the RB gets through our D line, rarely, if ever, do the LB's wrap them up.  They might as well be turnstiles.

I’ve also noticed that when we stand up a back, our D seems to relax while the opponent’s oline often pushes the back for an extra yard or 3.  I do like our backers a bit better this year, but I think our dline is letting runners through the line too often considering our dline talent.  That, to me is at least partly a coaching issue, though I think Ioannidis and Allen’s knee have (I believe) been issues as well.  

 

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

About the penalties...do we really believe that some guy like Gregg Williams is going to come in and make everyone drop and give him 20 over penalties, or cut his nose off to despite his face and bench starters and play even worse backups in their place, is going to do the trick?

 

I don't think guys keep getting penalties because they aren't afraid of the head coach or don't want to do extra drills.  That stuff might work with kids, but not with grown men.

I think getting benched for a series (if/when you commit the same penalty for the second time for example) is pretty good motivation.  It’s not an outright benching, but it is embarrassing and would send the msg that it’s not acceptable.  I’d have caveats though... like Moses going against Khalil Mack.

I wouldn’t discount the practice punishments either.  Having the individual or even unit run sprints or what have you is gonna put the clean play at the forefront of a player’s mind.  I don’t think, psychologically, that people fundamentally change all that much in a sports setting moving from College to Pros.  They don’t want to be punished, don’t want to be embarrassed, don’t want to let their teammates down, and don’t want to be beat.  Some guys might handle each aspect differently though, so you have to find that balance.  This, IMO, is one of the hardest things to find in a coach - the ability to understand your players.  

As a teacher (a big part of coaching of course), you need to explain the desired behavior, model it, and explain the consequences.  Then you have to execute the consequences without malice.  Again, I don’t think that really changes with age.  

59 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I think people blame coaching too much on penalties. Players commit penalties because they get beat by their opponents, because they are...inferior players. No coach tells a guy to hold or line up offside.

I’m of two minds about this.  Or maybe I’d say it’s a combo of factors.

 

There is a noticeable difference between disciplined and undisciplined squads, and I have trouble believing it’s all because the scouts are picking ‘smart’ players or all around better players.  With that said, I do agree that you’re more likely to commit certain penalties if you’re having trouble matching up with your man.  As I touched on above, Moses is a great example of this.  OTOH, if coaches are putting you in a tough spot (like not chipping Mack, putting a slower db on a speedy receiver, or not manufacturing pressure on qb and therefore setting dbs up to fail), that player is more likely to commit penalties.  I don’t feel like our coaches do enough to plan for the individual matchups... though I admit that I could be wrong about that.  

 

Sidenote:  gotta love how Moses jumping early into his pass set is a tell for the DE (and maybe the DT next to them and ILB behind them both) before they’ve even come out of their stance.  

[Warhead36]

1 minute ago, skinfan2k said:

That's even worse.  Why are you having a placeholder and not cutting every single vet?  Norman, Kerrigan and any other old trash should be out in order to have a clean house for the next coach. 

The FO doesn't believe in true rebuilding. Never have in the Snyder era.

[skinfan2k]

2 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

The FO doesn't believe in true rebuilding. Never have in the Snyder era.

Dude I know.  This might be the closest we have this year and still Danny Boy hasn't come out to apologize to the fans.  Zero Accountability by him to the fans. 

[carex]

13 minutes ago, skinfan2k said:

That's even worse.  Why are you having a placeholder and not cutting every single vet?  Norman, Kerrigan and any other old trash should be out in order to have a clean house for the next coach. 

 

because it would actually be cheaper and the next coach may want some veteran leadership

[skinsmania123]

2 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

About the penalties...do we really believe that some guy like Gregg Williams is going to come in and make everyone drop and give him 20 over penalties, or cut his nose off to despite his face and bench starters and play even worse backups in their place, is going to do the trick?

 

I don't think guys keep getting penalties because they aren't afraid of the head coach or don't want to do extra drills.  That stuff might work with kids, but not with grown men.

Look your probably right about this man, but some of this is pure lack of discipline and focus.  The saying, "desperate times call for desperate measures" is certainly coming to mind.  Or maybe there is a lack of intelligence as you mentioned.  

 

I don't know but i do know the D side of the ball may have exceeded expectations, or were certainly much better when Gregg "bounty" Williams was here.  I don't agree with the bounty stuff and hopefully he wasn't doing that here, because that is cheating, but this team really needs some discipline.    There is almost a laziness.  They do not play to the whistle.  I watched Moses give up on Mack on one play, thinking it is over, and looked surprised when Mack continued and took Keenum down.   

 

I am sure Danny and Bruce are in the situation room - Coors at noon - trying to figure it out and they won't.  

[illone]

I feel like Zorn's team was worse, but that would be a fun matchup.  2009 vs 2019, a decade of flatulence.

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

7 minutes ago, skinsmania123 said:

Look your probably right about this man, but some of this is pure lack of discipline and focus.  The saying, "desperate times call for desperate measures" is certainly coming to mind.  Or maybe there is a lack of intelligence as you mentioned.  

 

I don't know but i do know the D side of the ball may have exceeded expectations, or were certainly much better when Gregg "bounty" Williams was here.  I don't agree with the bounty stuff and hopefully he wasn't doing that here, because that is cheating, but this team really needs some discipline.    There is almost a laziness.  They do not play to the whistle.  I watched Moses give up on Mack on one play, thinking it is over, and looked surprised when Mack continued and took Keenum down.   

 

I am sure Danny and Bruce are in the situation room - Coors at noon - trying to figure it out and they won't.  

I don't disagree that the penalties are a problem - they almost single-handedly kill everything.  I've had to explain to the wife on numerous occasions that there is no script or play call for the situations many of our penalties create.

 

That said, I'm just not sure what the answer is.  And I know you didn't mean that Gregg would change it all, so this is just going off your post not against it: I can see Gregg as a guy that players would easily tune out but for whatever reason there's this urban legend that everyone will run through a wall for him.  I'd gather his style is one you either love or hate.  

 

Personally, I just think talent is a term too often used in a wide open sense.  You can be the fastest hardest hitting dude on the field, but are you an idiot? undisciplined? hard to get through to? etc.  I just find it strange that there are moving parts here yet many of the issues we run into remain the same.  

[skinzplay]

2 hours ago, volsmet said:

 

We turned a 245lb freak Olb into a 285lb dt. It really didn’t take that long either. 

 

Oops. responded to the wrong post here, @volsmet

[JoeJacobyHOForRIOT]

1 hour ago, illone said:

I feel like Zorn's team was worse, but that would be a fun matchup.  2009 vs 2019, a decade of flatulence.

 

The Jim zorn/Jason Campbell era was for me the worst in all my years following this team. Just the time investment we put in to both QB & coach was obscene and a indictment of Dan Snyder's incompetence as a owner.  Anyone with half a brain or a ounce of football knowledge could see the level of mediocrity both brought to the table from the get go.