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Is There a Tipping Point for China and Human Rights Violations???


Is there a point where the International Community has to get more involved such as Sanctions or even War with China over Human Rights Violations???  

30 members have voted

  1. 1. Is there a point where the International Community has to get more involved such as Sanctions or even War with China over Human Rights Violations???

    • War and Sanctions should be on the table in regards to human rights violations
      4
    • Sanctions, but war won't be worth it over human rights violations
      22
    • I don't support war or sanctions on China over human rights violations
      0
    • I don't know
      2
    • I don't care
      0
    • It doesn't matter, we wouldn't win anyway
      2


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I'm waiting to cast my vote before seeing some more responses.  This is the story I just read that prompted this thread, but is China the bully know one wants to punch square in the mouth, not even us?

 

If this is the line, what is it? 

 

 

 

 

China is harvesting thousands of human organs from its Uighur Muslim minority, UN human-rights body hears

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/china-harvesting-organs-of-uighur-muslims-china-tribunal-tells-un-2019-9

 

The UN Human Rights Council heard on Tuesday that China is engaged in widespread harvesting of human organs from persecuted religious and ethnic minorities.
The China Tribunal made the accusation at the council's meeting in Geneva, Switzerland. It said Uighur Muslims and the Falun Gong religious group were affected.
The China Tribunal is a group backed by an Australian human rights charity that's investigating the issue.
A lawyer for the group said China was "cutting out the hearts and other organs from living, blameless, harmless, peaceable people," describing the situation as an atrocity.
China has denied
large-scale harvesting of organs. It has acknowledged using executed prisoners' organs in the past but says it stopped in 2015, according to Reuters.

China was accused on Tuesday of harvesting human organs from persecuted groups in the country.

 

The China Tribunal, a group that's investigating the organ harvesting, said at a tense meeting of the United Nations Human Rights Council that the Chinese government was taking hearts, kidneys, lungs, and skin from groups including Uighur Muslims and members of the Falun Gong religious group.

 

The China Tribunal describes itself as an "independent, international people's tribunal, and was backed by the International Coalition to End Transplant Abuse in China, an Australian human rights charity made up of lawyers, academics, and medical professionals.

 

China has denied carrying out mass harvesting of organs in any circumstance.

 

Addressing UN representatives, a lawyer for the China Tribunal, Hamid Sabi, said the group had proof of the organ harvesting.

 

Sabi said the group had found that China was committing "crimes against humanity" by harvesting organs from religious minorities like the Uighurs and members of Falun Gong, which has been banned and widely persecuted by the Chinese government.

 

"Forced organ harvesting from prisoners of conscience, including the religious minorities of Falun Gong and Uighurs, has been committed for years throughout China on a significant scale," Sabi said in a video published on the China Tribunal website.

 

Sabi was presenting evidence from the tribunal's final report, published in June, which found that a "very substantial number" of prisoners were "killed to order" by the Chinese government.

They were "cut open while still alive for their kidneys, livers, hearts, lungs, cornea and skin to be removed and turned into commodities for sale," the report said.

 

The body parts were then used for medical purposes, it said, citing extremely short wait times for organ transplants in Chinese hospitals as evidence of the practice.

The report was led by Sir Geoffrey Nice, a British lawyer who was the lead prosecutor in the trial of Slobodan Milosevic, the former Yugoslavian president.

Edited by Renegade7
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1 hour ago, Xameil said:

Didnt this come out a few years ago? I swear I heard the same report before...

 

 

 

It has been out there for a while. I wrote a report during graduate school on the Chinese government harvesting organs from Falun Gong practitioners, so their engaging in this practice is at least many years old now. 

 

Rumors were abundant at the time that Uyghurs were being targeted as well, but the evidence was minimal. 

 

Anyways, China will continue to get away with this because for multi-national corporations, access to Chinese markets is far more important than human rights violations. 

 

Take Google for instance. Google loves posturing and refuses to work with the Pentagon on AI programs, but they have no problem developing a highly censored search engine for the Chinese gov. This is Silicon Valley in a nutshell. Somehow the US military bad, but developing high tech programs and hardware for the worlds most repressive technocracy is cool. They can all get bent.

 

The strongest resistance to this kind of stuff will almost entirely come from within China. If the mainland wasn’t so horribly repressed, scenes throughout China would resemble what’s happening in Hong Kong right now.

Edited by No Excuses
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They are a super power, control a huge (and growing) portion of the world's economy, and the west is really only interested in talking about how the west is the root of all evil in the world.  There is no interest in challenging China.  They will do whatever the hell they want and begin exporting their style of government eventually, because that's what super powers grow to do. 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

All of the major powers are in engaged in human rights violations. China is just up front and unrepentant with there’s because they know the other major powers can’t talk.

 

China is not upfront and how you arrive at this conclusion is beyond my understanding. We barely know the scale of atrocities happening in Xinjiang because reporters aren’t let in and the entire region is under surveillance lockdown. 

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10 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

 

China is not upfront and how you arrive at this conclusion is beyond my understanding. We barely know the scale of atrocities happening in Xinjiang because reporters aren’t let in and the entire region is under surveillance lockdown. 

When I say upfront, I mean it’s being discussed by the international community.

 

Are human right violations by the US, UK, or Canada even discussed?

 

 

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2 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

 

Are human right violations by the US, UK, or Canada even discussed?

 

 

 

Yes and regardless they are not remotely even on the scale of what happens in China, as much as you want to draw false equivalencies and turn this discussion into how much you hate the west. 

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I mean I would certainly hope that there's  a line where military intervention is warranted.  I personally feel China has crossed it to a point where the international community can give an ultimatum on their crimes against Uighurs (which I understand also includes forced boarding and marriages as a means of cultural genocide aka as government sanctioned rape.  There's also concentration camps).  I think the international community can start with sanctions and lead all the way up to war.  It's slow motion genocide (and not even that slow) and has to be stopped.  

 

But the appetite for military action is severely diminished if we have to go at it alone.  I don't know that it should be, but it is.  Whereas I feel a united international community could achieve clear victory and concessions based on even the threat alone, US v. China?  To do what?  Create a separate nation for the Uighurs?  Oh boy....

 

I have no doubt as to what the right thing to do would be.  But I honestly don't know that I could stomach US paying the price alone.  I tend to think it's not right to choose inaction due to cost in situations like this, but I also wouldn't be the one running into enemy fire on the battlefield.  I hope the international community can at least muster the gumption for sanctions and hope that does the job in this case.

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1 hour ago, No Excuses said:

 

Yes and regardless they are not remotely even on the scale of what happens in China, as much as you want to draw false equivalencies and turn this discussion into how much you hate the west. 

A) need proof

2) Bad is bad. I don’t care about who is “more bad.” This is how a lot of you comfort yourselves. “Well we don’t do as much bad as....”

 

51 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

Yes.  

 

But only by loons and trolls.  

Indeed. The loons and trolls are the ones pointing out police violence. Are pointing out the over incarceration of Americans. Are complaining about kids being separated from their families through deportations and concentration camps. Us loons and trolls.

 

 

And please don’t take anything I am saying as absolving China. They have surpassed the US as a surveillance state the last decade along with what they are doing to the Uyghur people. My only point is no one is putting the pressure on China because the big western powers have and are engaging in their own human rights abuses as well, and they prop up apartheid states like Israel.

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3 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Indeed. The loons and trolls are the ones pointing out police violence. Are pointing out the over incarceration of Americans. Are complaining about kids being separated from their families through deportations and concentration camps. Us loons and trolls.

 

Thank you for listing all of the US human rights problems that are not being discussed.  

 

In fact, I hadn't heard of them, till you mentioned them.  

 

4 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

And please don’t take anything I am saying as absolving China.

 

Gee, why would anybody think that?  

 

I mean, all you did was come into a thread which was created for the purpose of discussing human righta abuses in China, Point out how China is actually better than the people you want to talk about.  And then continue to make post after post about the things you want to talk about (but can't discuss in other threads.  Because they just aren't even discussed.)  

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11 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

A) need proof

2) Bad is bad. I don’t care about who is “more bad.” This is how a lot of you comfort yourselves. “Well we don’t do as much bad as....”

 

You need proof that internationally there isn’t coverage of migrant detention camps, mass incarceration etc in the US? Feel free to turn on Al Jazeera, BBC etc at any point and see how the US is discussed around the world. 

 

Our abuses are well known, with the difference being that as citizens we have the right to criticize our governments abuse of power, our domestic press and the international press can document abuses and citizens have the ability to do right and make corrections through self-governance. 

 

You don’t care who is more bad because you are an ideologue pure and simple. Introducing nuance would mean that you can’t make blanket statements and bull**** equivalencies between democratic societies and totalitarian surveillance states.

Edited by No Excuses
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2 hours ago, Destino said:

They are a super power, control a huge (and growing) portion of the world's economy, and the west is really only interested in talking about how the west is the root of all evil in the world.  There is no interest in challenging China.  They will do whatever the hell they want and begin exporting their style of government eventually, because that's what super powers grow to do. 

 

My feelings in a nutshell.  How Saudi Arabia has given the gi ahead makes me further question our relationship with them, and Pakistan is a perfection example of not needing to be threatened militarily but economically 

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/islamic-world-stopped-calling-out-chinas-muslim-persecution-2019-4?r=US&IR=T

 

This is probably the single greatest threat the world has every seen, there are some serious differences we are going to have to put aside to deal with this, and whataboutism is the wrong way to do it.  Theres no way the US can do it by itself, and we have to convince ourselves however this effects the global economy will be worth more then just letting this get to the point its too late to step in.

Edited by Renegade7
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Proposal:  

 

How about keeping this thread about discussing whether China's well known human rights abuses will ever be punished by anybody?  And anybody who wants to discuss American human rights abuses that aren't being discussed can go discuss them in the clearly labeled threads where they aren't being discussed?  

 

I seem to remember reading a rule about that, somewhere.  

 

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1 minute ago, Larry said:

Proposal:  

 

How about keeping this thread about discussing whether China's well known human rights abuses will ever be punished by anybody?  And anybody who wants to discuss American human rights abuses that aren't being discussed can go discuss them in the clearly labeled threads where they aren't being discussed?  

 

I seem to remember reading a rule about that, somewhere.  

 

 

I agree that this should at minimum force the conversation on an internationally response economically first, and never take war off the table with a country that has preparing itself for a war to stop them. 

 

But if we try to stop belt and road, how is it supplemented?  US does a terrible job investing in its own infrastructure.  Can we really get the world to sign off on an the level economic isolation we are doing to Russia, Iran, or even as far as North Korea? Will that backfire with more then a likely recession doing that to the second kargest economy in the world? 

 

War sounds inevitble unless something drastic changes the equation.

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7 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

But if we try to stop belt and road, how is it supplemented?  US does a terrible job investing in its own infrastructure.  Can we really get the world to sign off on an the level economic isolation we are doing to Russia, Iran, or even as far as North Korea? Will that backfire with more then a likely recession doing that to the second kargest economy in the world? 

 

War sounds inevitble unless something drastic changes the equation.

 

Our leverage against belt and road is economic and we can potentially block US businesses from operating in countries that are increasingly relying on Chinese infrastructure on national security grounds.

 

More likely than not, we are entering a world that will be divided between a US and Chinese digital firewall, with some grey zones in between. 

 

Although I still think there is a small possibility that the foundation for Chinese Communist Party is not that strong internally. Both Hong Kong and Taiwan are becoming more disobedient and opposed to one country, two systems governance. And it may be the case that dissent spills over into the mainland at some point.

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2 hours ago, Larry said:

I mean, all you did was come into a thread which was created for the purpose of discussing human righta abuses in China, Point out how China is actually better than the people you want to talk about

When did I do that?

 

”China is up front and unrepentant about their human rights problems,” is not me saying China is better about it. I shouldn’t have taken you serious when you said “only loons and trolls” bring up the USA’s human rights abuses but then you decided to misrepresent my words, lol. Boy, bye.

 

2 hours ago, No Excuses said:

 

You need proof that internationally there isn’t coverage of migrant detention camps, mass incarceration etc in the US? Feel free to turn on Al Jazeera, BBC etc at any point and see how the US is discussed around the world. 

 

Our abuses are well known, with the difference being that as citizens we have the right to criticize our governments abuse of power, our domestic press and the international press can document abuses and citizens have the ability to do right and make corrections through self-governance. 

 

You don’t care who is more bad because you are an ideologue pure and simple. Introducing nuance would mean that you can’t make blanket statements and bull**** equivalencies between democratic societies and totalitarian surveillance states.

I also need proof the USA’s police violence, treatment of the homeless, and over incarceration of its citizens is seen as human rights violations. Does our media call it that or is just an accepted part of living in America?

 

And I don’t care who is more bad because from where I live, bad is bad. Just because my knife only went three inches into someone’s back while yours went six inches doesn’t mean I get to stand on a higher ground. But to you, that means it’s only three inches.

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22 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

I also need proof the USA’s police violence, treatment of the homeless, and over incarceration of its citizens is seen as human rights violations. Does our media call it that or is just an accepted part of living in America?

 

And I don’t care who is more bad because from where I live, bad is bad. Just because my knife only went three inches into someone’s back while yours went six inches doesn’t mean I get to stand on a higher ground. But to you, that means it’s only three inches.

 

Interesting moving of the goalposts. Yes, US human rights violations are discussed worldwide. They are even discussed internally in the US. Have you ever read a court briefing written by ACLU? FFS.

 

Here is one of many links you will find, where an organization like the ACLU will call flaws in our system as human rights violations: https://www.aclu.org/other/abuse-human-rights-prisoners-united-states-solitary-confinement

 

Here is another link for when NPR covered the findings of a UN human rights investigator about poverty in the US: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/12/12/570217635/the-u-n-looks-at-extreme-poverty-in-the-u-s-from-alabama-to-california

 

“Bad is bad” is the kind of dumb thinking that spawned out of right wing policing philosophy that itself led to gross human rights violations in the US. All bad is not equal and being able to make distinctions is the cornerstone of fairness and justice. 

 

The horseshoe theory really fits here like a tee. You again have more in common with right wing fascists who not only avoid nuanced considerations, but find them antithetical to social issues. 

 

 

Edited by No Excuses
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5 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

All of the major powers are in engaged in human rights violations. China is just up front and unrepentant with there’s because they know the other major powers can’t talk.

This is what I was talking about.  Post anything about China on the net and people show up to remind you that no one should criticize China because whatever western country is just as bad.

 

people have lost perspective.  

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3 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

I also need proof the USA’s police violence, treatment of the homeless, and over incarceration of its citizens is seen as human rights violations. Does our media call it that or is just an accepted part of living in America?

 

And I don’t care who is more bad because from where I live, bad is bad. Just because my knife only went three inches into someone’s back while yours went six inches doesn’t mean I get to stand on a higher ground. But to you, that means it’s only three inches.

4

 

Please just get the hell out this thread if that's how you feel.  This "every sin is equal" **** is something i expect from an evangelical christrian, the police are not ripping the organs out of black people while they are alive to sell them on the black market.  Stop this ****, stay on topic, or make your own damn thread.

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2 hours ago, Zguy28 said:

I don't know. War would likely escalate to thermonuclear.

 

This is one of those situations where we may need to be serious about finding away to get ahead of that, either cyber or lasers in space, to deal with the fact if someone wanted to be pre-emptive about that, we couldn't stop them, either.

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