Next Coach?

[Skinsinparadise]

18 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

 

This is interesting because if I look at out coaches since Gibbs, I'd say that leadership has been lacking

 - Petitbone (yeah but not given a chance)

 - Norv (offensive guru, not a leader)

 - Shottenhimer (leader)

 - Spurrier (offensive guru, not a leader)

 - Gibbs (leader)

 - Zorn (blah, not a leader)

 - Shahahan (leader)

 - Gruden (offensive guru, not a leader)

 

So it'd be interesting if Roman is a leader. If I get time I may look into him in particular. but how do you measure a leader? Is it if people call them a leader? I thought Gruden was a leader when we hired him because of his playing days and the stuff he did in arena football as a QB. He was a legend there and could really rally his teams. But how did that translate? Was it more of him just getting tuned out as time passed? Did he ignore defense? 

 

As far as assistants go I'm more in the camp of a Robert Selah or Eric Bieniemy, but I wonder if there's anything behing defensive guys being better leaders? I think in general you have three units on defense (DL, LB, Secondary) and you have to get those units to work in cohesion. Many offensive coordinators are just guys who came up with a gimmic and set the league on fire. But that doesn't explain the lack of success of either side. I think that like most QBs, most coaches will fail so its probably a good bet to just bet against any coach and hope that your bet loses here. 

 

To me you can be a player's coach and still be a leader.  It's not a one size one style type.  I think the whole hard practice drill versus softer practices is more about a philosophy than anything else.  Bill Walsh and Shanny were known for soft practices.  Gibbs and Marty for hard practices.  There is a method to the madness for both.   They were all leaders.

 

I am looking for a coach who can take things up the next level.   Take a mediocre roster and overachieve.   Some love to knock Belichick's personality as proof that a motivational type leader isn't needed.  But if you read about Belichick (I've read two books about him) he's actually obsessed with motivation. He just doesn't do it with fire and brimstone speeches.  He scours the media for any nugget that he can use to fire up the troops.  He's obsessive about not giving opponent's bulletin board material.  He motivates his players via fear.  I can expound.

 

Leaders to me have multiple qualities.  They can motivate, know how to bring out the best of each player with a tailored made approach, strong organization skills, works in synch with the FO, has an overriding vision, understands strategy, invention, etc.  And yeah I do like some X's and O's as a bonus.  Belichick tends to surround himself with people who are outside the box thinkers.  Based on the books I've read about him, he's the opposite of Bruce and Dan in this way -- he hates conformity as to his assistant coaches and personnel guys.  He likes to be challenged and is open to changing approaches.  He encourages dissension and wants people who are open minded and flexible.  Now that's now what he wants from his players for them he just wants them to execute. 

 

But also he spends time explaining why the game plan is what it is so he gets his players vested in the game plan as opposed to just performing it robotically. 

[Thinking Skins]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Based on the books I've read about him, he's the opposite of Bruce and Dan in this way -- he hates conformity as to his assistance coaches and personnel guys.  He likes to be challenged and is open to changing approaches.  He encourages dissension and people being open minded.  Now that's now what he wants from his players for them he just wants them to execute. 

 

Isn't that what Dan and Bruce (or at least Dan) likes? A committee type approach where they discuss a player's strenghts and weaknesses and can have a conversation about a player? I didn't believe that this was happening but that's what was sold to me under Vinny (before he got the GM title).

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

Isn't that what Dan and Bruce (or at least Dan) likes? A committee type approach where they discuss a player's strenghts and weaknesses and can have a conversation about a player? I didn't believe that this was happening but that's what was sold to me under Vinny (before he got the GM title).

 

The difference is the decision at the end isn't made by the committee but by the smartest football person in that room which isn't Robert Kraft, or the best backroom political guy in the organization but by Bill Belichick.

 

Yeah for example I don't mind Kyle Smith listening to a slew of opinions before he makes his moves.  But it should be his call.  Not Bruce.  Not Dan.

 

The idea that the owner or politician would have the final call on draft picks and FAs would be comical for someone like Belichick and he'd resign if that was how it worked there.  On rare occasion if there are extenuating circumstances, I am sure every owner weighs in.  But rare is the operative word. 

 

None of the other NFL operations are ones where a politician and perhaps owner are the ultimate decision makers.  Adam Caplan said the other day and I quote "the weird FO structure" that the Redskins have is turning off some of the coaching candidates he's spoken to. 

 

[Thinking Skins]

I am less interested in "leadership" and more in roots. Like, coaching tree. We saw in the 90s and 2000s that the Bill Parcells coaching tree was the most important way to turn a team around. Even right now with Sean Payton we're seeing that tree. We saw the same thing with the Bill Walsh tree. And now we're seeing it with the Shanahan tree and the Reid Tree. Are the guys getting hire offensive gurus? Sure, but they've also seen good organizations run over a long period of time and learned how to build and sustain successful organizations. 

 

I didn't think I'd find this article, but bleacher report (whoda thought) had a great article on the greatest coaching trees of all time. There's another analytic that looks up a given coach's coaching tree. 

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1058677-power-ranking-the-greatest-coaching-trees-in-nfl-history#slide4

 

 

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Yeah for example I don't mind Kyle Smith listening to a slew of opinions before he makes his moves.  But it should be his call.  Not Bruce.  Not Dan.

 

Yeah this is the problem I had with this approach at the time, or even now. Its that Vinny and Bruce aren't the ones to break ties. So it means that scouts and coaches have to be EVEN BETTER to overcome the ignorance at the top. 

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I am less interested in "leadership" and more in roots. Like, coaching tree. We saw in the 90s and 2000s that the Bill Parcells coaching tree was the most important way to turn a team around. Even right now with Sean Payton we're seeing that tree. We saw the same thing with the Bill Walsh tree. And now we're seeing it with the Shanahan tree and the Reid Tree. Are the guys getting hire offensive gurus? Sure, but they've also seen good organizations run over a long period of time and learned how to build and sustain successful organizations. 

 

I didn't think I'd find this article, but bleacher report (whoda thought) had a great article on the greatest coaching trees of all time. There's another analytic that looks up a given coach's coaching tree. 

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1058677-power-ranking-the-greatest-coaching-trees-in-nfl-history#slide4

 

 

 

I get the point but IMO  the individuals still matter.  There are some lemon coaches IMO coming off of the Walsh coaching tree.    Some are better assistant coaches than HCs.  I think leadership skills are often inherent in that person's personality versus it rubbing off from someone else.  Look at Jimmy Johnson for example and Norv.  Norv watched Jimmy plenty but he was a totally different dude. 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

This has now become an "Ok, Boomer" thread.

 

All of you seem to think being a red-faced yeller is the same thing as being a leader.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

I don't think we got a single yeller being pushed in this mix of people unless I am missing one.  Maybe Kris Richards?   Gregg too but he doesn't seem like one of the most coveted coaches on this thread at least. 

[Skinsinparadise]

@Thinking Skins

 

The article you posted on the Bruce thread actually ramps up someone like Greg Roman.  If the QB and passing game is the #1 thing then a dude who supposedly is a wiz on that front would do more for the organization than any other type.

 

I am not saying its the be all and end all but I don't see the choice as being one versus the other.  Historically speaking you can find good leaders who are also good strategists like a Joe Gibbs, Sean Payton, Bill Walsh, etc.  I am not saying Roman is that guy.  But that article brings home that it helps to have a dude who knows offenses and QBs.  And yeah you can find an offensive coordinator who can do it but ultimately if they are very good at their job, their tenure will be short lived.  

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

When asked Thursday if he thinks Allen will return for another season or if Redskins owner Daniel Snyder goes in a different direction, Clayton said, "I think he might go a different direction."

"I think right now there's such a clamoring for change. And of course, there's gonna be change obviously with the coaching staff and all that, because I'm pretty doubtful that Bill Callahan's gonna be able to get the job, (Snyder) is gonna want a bigger name and try and build some of the fanbase back," Clayton told 106.7 The Fan. "So if that's gonna be the case, yeah, I think there's a chance that could happen, but I don't think Dan wants to do it."

 

https://thefandc.radio.com/could-this-be-end-bruce-allen-redskins-reign

[Est.1974]

Still think he'd like to get Tomlin away from Pitt. Not sure how viable that really is though.

[Thinking Skins]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001083916/article/rb-index-week-14-rungame-gurus-who-deserve-a-promotion

 

With the final month of the NFL regular season often come coaching changes. Just this week, we saw the Carolina Panthers part ways with Ron Rivera, making him and Jay Gruden, formerly of the Washington Redskins, the two coaches that have already lost their jobs this year.

That's two teams now in need of a new head coach for the 2020 season, with more likely to come by the end of the month. Naturally, if I were conducting a coaching search, I'd look at hiring a person who will emphasize the run game. And not just because I played running back, but because the best teams at the end of the season tend to have a good, if not great, ground attack. If you look at the top eight rushing offenses right now, seven of those teams hold a playoff spot. So today, I'm here to point out some run-game gurus who deserve a promotion. Here we go:

[Skinsinparadise]

Just now, Thinking Skins said:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001083916/article/rb-index-week-14-rungame-gurus-who-deserve-a-promotion

 

 

 

 

If you want a running game, Roman would be that guy. too.  

 

I was listening to Keim who said his sense is they want a HC who has been a head coach before.  Though in the same conversation he mentioned Bieniemy so that confused me a bit.  I'll re-listen to it to see if I missed something. 

 

He said he was told by some in the league that there are good coaching candidates who won't even consider this team because of the FO structure. 

 

 

 

[88Comrade2000]

23 hours ago, Wyndorf25 said:

 

It's been quiet on the Mike Tomlin front. Would the Redskins have to actually trade for him?

Tomlin isn't going anywhere.  The Steelers are currently the 6th seed in the AFC.   Steelers are probably making the playoffs; they aren't changing coaches.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Not that Michael Phillips is that plugged in but for what its worth he said there is no future HC for Callahan here that doesn't also include Bruce Allen.  He thinks this game is the be all and end all for both of their futures.   So that somewhat echoes Sheehan. 

[88Comrade2000]

5 hours ago, Blue Collar Skins said:

 

Because you have a chance of taking a team and going from dud to stud. A lot different than taking an alright team and making them marginally better. I believe competitors welcome a challenge and rise up to it, and that is what we have here in Washington, a huge challenge. 

 

I think you meant to say Kyle Smith

If you have options, the Skins are near the bottom of the list.

 

Cowboys- They just need the right coach and they are superbowl contenders.  If Jerry goes the non-puppet route; this job is better than us.

Giants-  They got their QB, probably and a franchise RB. Better owners.  NY market.  Giants job is better than us.

Panthers- New owner ready to get the right people in.  Need to decide on Cam Netwon's future.  Even with the question mark at QB, I think this job is better than us.

Falcons- Matt Ryan still has something left in the tank.  Maybe a new coach can have them make one last superbowl run before the window closes.  This job is better than us.

Lions- Patricia has failed.  How much does Stafford have left in him, after his back injury.  This is probably push.  Probably, in the same level of attractiveness as us. 

Chargers- If they move on from Lynn, this is interesting.  How much does Rivers have left.  No fan support in their new home, L.A. You want a challenge, there's a challenge there.

Jaguars-  Is Minshew the guy?  Foles was a bust. Khan will probably blow up the whole thing.  This seems like a push.  Probably on the same level as us.

Bengals-  If Taylor is one and done, this job is worse than us.

Browns- Kitchens needs to go, will he?  If he does, this job is way better than us. Browns just need a real coach and they can be contenders for years.

 

We aren't beating out Dallas, New York, Carolina, Atlanta, Cleveland and San Diego should they have openings.   If Detroit, Jacksonville and Cincinnati have openings; we may have a shot against them.  If Bruce is here, then no quality coach will touch this job.  If Bruce is gone, does Dan hire a gm?  Does the GM do the hiring?  Does Dan?  Given Dan's past, any quality coach will have to have contractual guarantees from Snyder meddling.   We know Rex Ryan would love the job- Rex isn't a quality hire.

5 hours ago, PlayAction said:

 

I don't want Allen to start the process.  Snyder needs to hire, or promote, someone else to GM.  The GM then should hire his own guy as coach - someone who shares the same philosophy of building a team.  I'm tired of Allen picking the assistant coaches for the HC or Snyder signing free agents that don't fit the scheme.  If the new HC is a scheme coach then the player acquisition group must focus only on the appropriate players.  No more of the "here's a really good player that can do so many things" and then he's put in a position the minimizes his unique talents because the team doesn't have the ability for all other players on defense to adjust.

 

Every fan would like to have truly flexible HC, OC and DC for the Skins.  I don't think that's likely to happen.  There's enough on the defense for a quality DC to work with.  Offense is another matter.  The GM has to build around Haskins' strengths if he's convinced that Haskins has a good chance to become a starting QB.  IMO a north south offense (noted by Koolblue13) is probably a better fit for Haskins than the WCO.  

Snyder should be interviewing people now.  Allen should be gone now.  As I've posted in another post; they are options.  The Skins aren't one of the attractive openings available.

[RandyHolt]

Knute Rockne

 

Oh wait never mind, we already have him.

[88Comrade2000]

Washington Times: SNYDER: Redskins a hard sell for top-tier candidates like Rivera

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

8 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Not that Michael Phillips is that plugged in but for what its worth he said there is no future HC for Callahan here that doesn't also include Bruce Allen.  He thinks this game is the be all and end all for both of their futures.   So that somewhat echoes Sheehan. 

‘If’, and it’s still a big ‘IF’ as I type, he finished with a winning record at 6-5. Or even better won out and he went 7-4. (And by association the week-on-week development in many aspects in this young team had continued as they grow together under him.). Which, all things considered, IMHO would be one of the best coaching jobs we’ve ever seen here in our entire storied history (not least given the absolute 0-5 carnage he inherited), and he wasn’t given the gig on merit regardless of what happens with Allen ..... 
 

That would be to our detriment and an absolute disgrace IMHO and make this organisation even more of a league wide joke than its fallen to already. 
 

Hail.

[Skinsinparadise]

5 hours ago, Gibbs Hog Heaven said:

‘If’, and it’s still a big ‘IF’ as I type, he finished with a winning record at 6-5. Or even better won out and he went 7-4. (And by association the week-on-week development in many aspects in this young team had continued as they grow together under him.). Which, all things considered, IMHO would be one of the best coaching jobs we’ve ever seen here in our entire storied history (not least given the absolute 0-5 carnage he inherited), and he wasn’t given the gig on merit regardless of what happens with Allen ..... 
 

That would be to our detriment and an absolute disgrace IMHO and make this organisation even more of a league wide joke than its fallen to already. 
 

Hail.

 

This team finished 9-7, 8-7. 7-9, 7-9, the previous 4 years.  They got off a rough start this year but it's not like that start typified recent history.  If we went 2-14, 3-13, 4-12 previous years, and then we went 6-5 for a run I'd see the point a bit more.  We've had two 6-3 stretches in the mix in recent years.  We find our way to mediocrity in recent years,   My point is I wouldn't see a 6-5 run as one of the best coaching stints in history here.    He didn't inherit the bad news Bears.  Peterson and Guice might be the best RB tandem in the league or at least in conversation.  The defense is talented but has been grossly underachieving this season.   

 

But I'll give this if they go into GB and beat them impressively, it would get my attention.  It would certainly make me like Callahan more.  Right now, I can take him or leave him.  Because for me I do care who they are playing when they win.  Why?  Because for years we've had stretches of winning especially against mediocre clubs and on rare occasion a really good team -- ironically twice that good team has been the Packers. 

 

I do think Bruce even has it in him to build a mediocre team.  They've mastered mediocre.  I'd like to see good to very good.   But yeah its hard for me to envision a scenario where I'd take Bruce in a package with any coach save Belichick or Gibbs.  

 

 

 

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Well mate, we'll have to continue to agree to disagree on this (not least the carnage we were 5 weeks in) and let it play out. 

 

Hail. 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, Gibbs Hog Heaven said:

Well mate, we'll have to continue to agree to disagree on this (not least the carnage we were 5 weeks in) and let it play out. 

 

Hail. 

 

I want a head coach who reminds me more of Klopp stylistically, ironically.   Younger-hungry-more modern--inventive-energetic leader type.  When the Carolina owner explained what he wants that doesn't sound that far away from what I want.   I like some aspects of Callahan but a dude pushing mid 60s, old school, with a checkered record as to dealing with players internally - doesn't float my boat.  I don't hate it but don't love it. 

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I want a head coach who reminds me more of Klopp stylistically, ironically.   Younger-hungry-more modern--inventive-energetic leader type.  When the Carolina owner explained what he wants that doesn't sound that far away from what I want.   I like some aspects of Callahan but a dude pushing mid 60s, old school, with a checkered record as to dealing with players internally - doesn't float my boat.  I don't hate it but don't love it. 

 

Well as I see the young guys, in particular, responding to Callahan, and I don't see the type of football he wants to play as particularly outdated the more Haskins grows and adds pass options off the run game, I can see a situation where he's the perfect option going forward for them to continue to develop under him. The Klopp analogy is apt to me as regards his detail in preparation and his openness with the media. I'm more impressed every time he speaks and, just personally speaking if he's genuinely the same behind closed doors he's a Coach that would get my full motivation. 

 

And there's very few that's been floated that would either come here or change things to any significant degree to me.  

 

But it's all relative as there's still the season to play out so we'll have a better picture to reflect just where we are on the playing side after Dallas. 

 

Hail. 

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, Gibbs Hog Heaven said:

 

Well as I see the young guys, in particular, responding to Callahan, and I don't see the type of football he wants to play as particularly outdated the more Haskins grows and adds pass options off the run game, I can see a situation where he's the perfect option going forward. The Klopp analogy is apt to me as regards his detail in preparation and his openness with the media. I'm more impressed every time he speaks and, just personally speaking if he's genuinely the same behind closed doors he's a Coach that would get my full motivation. 

 

And there's very few that's been floated that would either come here or change things to any significant degree to me.  

 

But it's all relative as there's still the season to play out so we'll have a better picture to reflect just where we are on the playing side after Dallas. 

 

Hail. 

 

 

Klopp and Callahan strike me as two totally different cats.  Klopp is aggressive, inventive, fiery, energetic, obvious leader. 

 

As for whether we can attract an actual coach like that or Dan has the foresight to do it, I agree that might be a problem.  

 

 

on another note:

 

 

 

[PlayAction]

16 hours ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

Still think he'd like to get Tomlin away from Pitt. Not sure how viable that really is though.

 

If Snyder were to trade away draft picks to get a HC it would be the last nail in the coffin.  Just box up your Redskins memorabilia and put it away in the attic.  

[Riggo#44]

34 minutes ago, PlayAction said:

 

If Snyder were to trade away draft picks to get a HC it would be the last nail in the coffin.  Just box up your Redskins memorabilia and put it away in the attic.  

 

I thought the league put a stop to that after Tampa "traded" for Jon Gruden?