jbird

Guice Injury and Med staff

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7 hours ago, JoeJacobyHOForRIOT said:

11. Please do not use the “Quote” feature to quote pics, gifs, vids, or any large sections of text.
It unnecessarily extends and clutters threads and is annoying. Edit them out. If you would like to respond to the contents of a particular post,you can simply highlight text, click the popup that floats over it, and it just quotes that text.  When on mobile, if you quote a post with an image in it, simply tap the image in the quote box to highlight it & hit backspace on your keyboard to delete it.

 

This is good information, but you also want to include the actual number of games lost due to injury. If someone goes on IR earlier in the season it has a larger impact than them only missing a couple games. 

 

Fooballoutsiders did some great work on breaking it down. I linked it, but the piece that's always difficult to measure is the team weighted impact of a specific player. For example, if you lose a QB it's normally more of an impact than losing a long snapper, but then again some teams do better with the backup. A good example is Philly. They lost their franchise guy in Wentz and Foles took the reigns. Despite not being as good statistically the team went 4-1 with Foles as opposed to 5-6 with Wentz. In contrast we were 6-4 with Alex Smith, then went 1-5 with the backup QB. 

 

I'm not saying QBs are only responsible for wins, but rather each team schemes differently for each position and each player has a different level of importance for their team's outcome. 

 

The math is not as simple. Not all players are equal in terms of usage, responsibilities and impact of outcome. It's also important to know teams have different opponents, so that further makes the comparisons difficult to draw accurate conclusions from. 

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1 hour ago, JSSkinz said:

How was Guice misdiagnosed?  Does anyone here know what happened in the tent, what the initial findings were by the physician who examined him?

 

These players aren't children, if something doesn't come up on the initial exam and the player lies about how he feels then he should hold himself accountable, now if the Redskins pencil whipped the initial exam in the tent when they should have taken him into the locker room for a more detailed exam/scan or whatever they do and they chose not to then that's a big fricken problem.

 

My issue is that nobody has any data to back up anything on what actually happened, and that includes Trents issue and soo on and so on.

 

After a certain point, you don't need to feel the heat of the fire if the smoke asphyxiates you first.  

 

No one has mentioned 'misdiagnosis'.  It was mishandled, just like Colt was, and like Trent perhaps was.  That's three independent situations, where the training staff erred in one way or another, in one off season. 

 

You can have the best surgeons in the world performing the surgeries (which we do)...if you're going to screw up rehabbing, and allow the team to place unrealistic timelines on players...you might not be *the reason*, but you're a part of the problem.  

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This is a Guice thread so I don't want to hijack things by bringing up Allen too much, but I will say, at least there is a hungry & angry AP waiting in the wings behind Guice......with Allen injured, out this week, and potentially missing significant time, I am less confident that there are capable players behind him. 

 

Basically, it sucks that Guice is injured again, and now we are in a "who knows about his future" situation, but I am not worried about AP stepping into the role as the feature back at this time. 

Edited by NoCalMike

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4 hours ago, desertbeagle85 said:

 

He had 10 carries all game. 3 came from the 1st drive. So 7 carries for the rest of the game. So yeah the power back was real important in there game plan. 🙄

Wonder if it had to do with possibly being injured yet again.

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1 minute ago, Koolblue13 said:

Wonder if it had to do with possibly being injured yet again.

 

Well according to Jay that had nothing to do with it. 

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I posted this in the injury thread. But it applies. 

 

So for reference - Redskins have 8 players on the injured list all week. 5 of them didn't practice at all  1 was upgraded all week (Nicholson went from Did not practice on Wed, to limited practice).  Meanwhile Dunbar went from limited practice on Wed, to did not practice Thursday, and Reed went from LImited practice Wed and Thur to did not practice Friday.  So  2 players were downgraded as week went on.  

 

As a compression - Cowboys have 12 players on the injured list. 2 of them didnt practice all week.  4 of them got upgraded during the week.  None of them got worse as the week went on.  

 

I looked other teams as well

 

Eagles - 5 players on injured report. 2 did not practice all week.  2 got upgraded as week went on, no one got worse

Giants  = 7 players on Injured report.  3 did not practice all week. 4 were upgraded during the week.  No one was downgraded   

 

Maybe the injuries just happen, but it seems only in Redskins world does no one get better and people get worse as time goes by.  

Edited by TMK9973
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Just now, desertbeagle85 said:

 

Well according to Jay that had nothing to do with it. 

Well, Mr. Slow developing run play on every first down would certainly know.

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Guice to IR?

 

wow, I do not CARE that he can come back if healty in 8 weeks.  You've basically used your one IR return spot on a guy who probably should have never even played in Preseason, could have sat on PUP for a while.

I'm sick of this crap.  If I were  ticket holder, I would put my tickets in individual envelopes, with a note that says my disgust with this team, and say forget about any money from me until you #FireBruceAllen.  1 envelope a week times how many fans?   Nuts.

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5 hours ago, megared said:

No one has mentioned 'misdiagnosis'.

People are using that word, I've seen it thrown around on Twitter and this forum, Ben Standig wrote an article earlier this week titled "The misdiagnosis of Guice".

 

5 hours ago, megared said:

It was mishandled

Break it down for me, what happened in the initial diagnosis compared to what should have happened in the instances you just mentioned, please be specific as to what was originally diagnosed or used as treatment and then tell me what should have happened if they were doing it the correct way.

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Whether or not the trend towards always being amongst the most injured is or is not due to the medical staff, what's the downside in getting shot of the lot and bringing in a whole new Med team? No one is thinking that the efforts of the current mob have kept us there or thereabouts the last few seasons.

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6 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

People are using that word, I've seen it thrown around on Twitter and this forum, Ben Standig wrote an article earlier this week titled "The misdiagnosis of Guice".

 

Break it down for me, what happened in the initial diagnosis compared to what should have happened in the instances you just mentioned, please be specific as to what was originally diagnosed or used as treatment and then tell me what should have happened if they were doing it the correct way.

 

Pretty much all of our injured players are beset by setbacks and infections.  How much the staff is to blame for that, I'm not sure.

 

McCoy - team had him do an medically unnecessary procedure on his leg (Dec 4th) to make him available, in case we made the playoffs (timeline 3-4 weeks).  Of course we didn't.  So for one reason or another, he's had 2 additional surgeries, there's no timeline for when he'll be healthy enough to return...and at this point he's occupying a valuable roster spot for no good reason*.  This is important to note, because he is not eligible to go on the PuP list, because he wasn't on it at the start of training camp.  Meaning he was brought back (cleared by our medical team) before he was physically ready to practice.  

 

Trent - we know bits and pieces of the story. Leaning toward's Trent's side on this, considering the team's reputation.  

 

Guice - had infection and setback while recovering from the ACL.  Wasn't cleared for contact until week 3 of the preseason.  Instead of him being eased back (which is something the medical staff would discuss with the coaches as part of workload management), he's given the bulk of the carries.  There's talks that he had the knee issue prior to the game.

 

Again it's doesn't matter what the diagnosis is, if you aren't going to accept or follow the recommended treatment. 

 

I've avoided questioning competence...but I'll go on record as questioning the independence this medical staff has in making decisions without the front office's influence.  Every course of action taken in all of these instances, rushed the player back and was the optimal solution for the team.      

 

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I'm not sure why the level of surprise when we draft often injured players and they get hurt.  Maybe Bryce Love will be the exception coming off a bad knee, but with the Guice injury the skins will probably rush him back before he is ready and break him too.  At some point the only ability that matters is availability and we seem to accumulate a bunch of guys that struggle with that.  I sincerely hope Guice heals and returns better than ever, but history tells me this isn't likely.  Even with a healthy Guice, a healthy scratch of AP just doesn't seem like the act of a competent staff.  I don't think we are as bad as some have prognosticaded, another middle of the pack non competitive year.  Maybe we clean house this offseason and start the long process of recovering from "Synders Synergy of Suck" or maybe we keep doing the same thing with the same results.  Without some change I am struggling with staying positive.  All that said, I think we have a chance to compete against Dallas on Sunday, Beat Dallas and everything is ok for a minute.  HTTR.

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45 minutes ago, megared said:

I've avoided questioning competence...but I'll go on record as questioning the independence this medical staff has in making decisions without the front office's influence.  Every course of action taken in all of these instances, rushed the player back and was the optimal solution for the team.  

Those are all bland details which make it frustrating because it's exactly my point.  We don't really know what's been going on and we don't have facts to back up any bold statements about who is at fault.  Is it the medical staff or the training staff, or is it both?  I think people sometimes mistake one for the other when trying to relay their points.

 

The infections aren't going to be related to either one, anyone who has had several surgeries and has talked to doctors knows that these super infections run ramped and the doctors do their best to avoid them but they happen to the healthiest of people and sometimes there is no rhyme or reason to it.

 

IMO, if you're going to bash the team focus on the fact we have drafted players with a history of injuries for years now and it's not working out.

 

Edited by JSSkinz

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10 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

 

Those are all bland details which make it frustrating because it's exactly my point.  We don't really know what's been going on and we don't have facts to back up any bold statements about who is at fault.  Is it the medical staff or the training staff, or is it both?  I think people sometimes mistake one for the other when trying to relay their points.

 

The infections aren't going to be related to either one, anyone who has had several surgeries and has talked to doctors knows that these super infections run ramped and the doctors do their best to avoid them but they happen to the healthiest of people and sometimes there is no rhyme or reason to it.

 

IMO, if you're going to bash the team focus on the fact we have drafted players with a history of injuries for years now and it's not working out.

 

 

Gruden admitted the team was at fault for McCoy:

 

 

 

If I search NFL infections...first several pages are Alex Smith and Guice. 

 

You're trying to delineate something to a level that no one operates on.  I've yet to see a VP, GM, Coach or anyone outside of medical/training staff be fired for issues related to players' health.  So even if it's the organizational philosophy to err on the side of playing guys with injuries, in the end the training/medical staff are where the buck stops when you discuss systemic failures (which is what I think this is).  You're not going to escape professional scrutiny by being a rubber stamp for the team's wishes, especially when we can easily piece together all of the less-than-desirable outcomes.      

 

I'm real interested to see how Dunbar plays out.  Hoping they take the time to figure out what's wrong with him, before they throw him back on the field.  Small steps...

 

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50 minutes ago, megared said:

If I search NFL infections...first several pages are Alex Smith and Guice

Try a different Google search like "surgical site infections" read those stats and you will see that 300,000 people per year get infections from surgery.  Several teams over the years have players who get infections after surgery and it never makes the news except for the situations in Jacksonville and Tampa because they were extreme.

 

I watch most of those Gruden pressers and I heard him say that quote you posted and it was admirable for him to once again take responsibility for something he has no control over. 

 

Colt was cleared to play, you cant play in the NFL after suffering a broken leg without being medically cleared by doctors.  So if our doctors are flat out insubordinate or the training staff is lazy or uneducated, or Colt was incorrectly informed of the risks associated with coming back too early, then why can't we get just one specific example that can expose the situation, then the team would be forced to address it.

 

 

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I still go back to that Keim podcast from several months ago where they discuss the issues with the training staff. Couple the perspectives shared there with what we've been seeing over the course of the off-season and through the end of Week 1, and it's pretty damning. Are these guys being pressured from levels above Gruden to get players back out there? Is Gruden receiving straightforward info from these guys? Sometimes during those pressers, he seems like the Dark Knight from Monty Python -- it's just a scratch, it's just a flesh wound. First, Guice might be able to suit up and play against Dallas. First, Allen just has a sore knee...................Like someone mentioned earlier (not sure if it was here or in another of the 8 million injury/medical staff threads), but it does seem like our players regress after their initial diagnoses.

Edited by skinzplay
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9 hours ago, megared said:

If I search NFL infections...first several pages are Alex Smith and Guice.

 

They occur in an estimated 2 percent to 5 percent of patients undergoing inpatient surgery

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I think he is cleared enough to play, right?

 

As our lead medical staff member looks at Bruce.

 

Doctors work for the team / nfl, but maybe in future generations they will be a separate entity.  They are not the lead dog like they are at their practice.

 

Our doctors must cross their fingers when giving green lights.

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11 hours ago, JSSkinz said:

Try a different Google search like "surgical site infections" read those stats and you will see that 300,000 people per year get infections from surgery.  Several teams over the years have players who get infections after surgery and it never makes the news except for the situations in Jacksonville and Tampa because they were extreme.

 

I watch most of those Gruden pressers and I heard him say that quote you posted and it was admirable for him to once again take responsibility for something he has no control over. 

 

Colt was cleared to play, you cant play in the NFL after suffering a broken leg without being medically cleared by doctors.  So if our doctors are flat out insubordinate or the training staff is lazy or uneducated, or Colt was incorrectly informed of the risks associated with coming back too early, then why can't we get just one specific example that can expose the situation, then the team would be forced to address it.

 

So were all three of our situations extreme then?  Are the Redskins the only team reporting that guys are dealing with infections?  I think it's damning when almost everyone that had a major surgery under the purview of this organization ends up being afflicted by infections, and setbacks.  Alex Smith was a special situation...but even then the infections were worse than what they anticipated. 

 

Remember Guice was supposed to be back for OTAs, according to the initial schedules.  Colt was as well.  

 

It seems crystal clear to me that these players are being brought back on a schedule that is more beneficial to the team, than their own recovery from the injury. 

 

They brought McCoy back and wanted him to compete for the starting job.  As a result, he can't go on the PuP list.  The guy can't even plant his foot to throw.  How did anyone believe he was ready to practice?

 

They brought Guice back in a timeline to make him the starter for the season opener.  

 

Just seems like the more involved you are as a player with this training/medical staff, the less likely you are to recover.

 

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