By Destino in ES Coverage

[dballer]

19 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

This team hasn't consistently won with any coach under Dan.  The last 4 years have actually been the high water mark for consistently under Dan, ironically.  Is Dan just a terrible picker of head coaches and that's always been the operative point, and we all have faith that this time he will get it right?  New coach = new culture = all will finally be OK?

 

I am ok with Jay, I don't live and die with him though.  But count me out of the idea that the new spanking shiny new coach changes the culture here.    Don't get me wrong I understand the thought, I used to buy into it, too.  I worshipped Shanny for example when he came and others, too.   To me the culture change has to start at the top and its not even close.   As Sheehan is saying on the air now (and he ironically is far from in love with Jay) that every coach leaves here worse off then what they are capable of and there is a reason for it. 

 

I've gotten to the point where I believe it will take a special coach. Not just a great coach but a coach that can convince the FO to change as well. Or at least trick them into changing. Coaches like that probably wouldn't come here. So you have to find one before they even know how good they are. Basically, we need a miracle. 

 

 

Edited September 11 by dballer

[skins island connection]

 The culture starts at the top.

 Success starts at the top.

 The Pats are an example. If the FO and coaching staff came here, they would have this team turned around within a couple years. They take JAGS from around the league, put them in a quality environment, and tell them this is how you do your job, and they do it, no denying they're the best team over the last 20 years.

 

Bruce Allen is the festering problem with this organization. He is a bacteria that spreads around, slowly infecting others, directly or indirectly, and eventually the effects show up on the scoreboard.

I'm not high on Gruden but I don't think he is terrible. But he takes on too much responsibilities on-field, and that takes away his ability to really focus on situational problems in-game. Question is, why won't he let a real OC take over play calling or other duties? Does he not trust others? Does he not want praise going to someone else? Is he trying to fortify his resume' when he leaves?

 

Respect is something earned, and given. The problem is, I do not believe that most in the organization has an idea what respect is. The organization wants a winner; the players want a winner; the fans want a winner; a winning culture is badly needed with this team, but most do not believe in the people running or coaching the team, and now this problem has gotten to the players.  They can't continue treating the symptoms, they need to find the cure, but in this age of "win now" it is pretty much impossible.

[goskins10]

Nothing will change as long as Dan Snyder owns the team. He is the problem. And people can talk all they want about him backing out of things. Of him giving more control. The fact is everyone that comes to this team underachieves from the FO all the way down to players.

 

The one common denominator to all this underachieving is one person and one person only - Dan Snyder. He is the cancer. He sets the culture. He forms the leadership. They reflect his ideals, goals and beliefs. They foster the culture he wants. I can't even blame Bruce as he is doing what he is being told to do by his boss. In that light he is good at communicating and fostering the culture Dan wants. That's why he is still here despite an abysmal record with no PO wins in 9 seasons. Now it doesn't help that he apparently also likes this type of culture. But as much as a despise Bruce, it all starts at the top. If Dan did not like this type of culture he would moved on from Bruce very quickly if he even hired him at all. 

 

The culture Dan prefers to work in is counterproductive to a successful football team. It may work in business - although there are clearly questions about that too - but it just does not work in football. We have > 20 yrs of data that prove this point. So until he leaves nothing will significantly change. 

[Alexa]

It all starts with the owner and his loser President. They will never hire a hard ass coach. Look at how they treated Greg Williams. They were scared of him, didn't want to deal with someone who's a hard ass. Instead they hire a total wuss like Jim Zorn over Greg Williams.  Snyder will never hire a Marty type ever again. IMO the players need to somewhat fear the head coach.

 

You'd figure that when Snyder looks at his stadium that is filled with other teams fans that he'd do something about it. That he'd change the direction of the franchise. That he'd at least come out and look the fans in the eye and say something. But all he does is hide like the weasel that he is. 

 

 

[dballer]

33 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

Nothing will change as long as Dan Snyder owns the team. He is the problem. And people can talk all they want about him backing out of things. Of him giving more control. The fact is everyone that comes to this team underachieves from the FO all the way down to players.

 

The thing about backing away, if he has actually backed away, is who are you leaving in charge? Bruce Allen? And what, just back away for ever and let Allen do what he wants, whether successful or not? That is not how it works. The owner can never fully back away because they ARE the boss. It is up to him to make decisions on the other bosses when they need to be made. I do think they can be successful under Dan if he takes a hands off approach. But you have to hire the right President/GM. And after a few years, when it is painfully obvious that you don't have the right people, you try again. 

 

 

Edited September 11 by dballer

[goskins10]

42 minutes ago, dballer said:

 

The thing about backing away, if he has actually backed away, is who are you leaving in charge? Bruce Allen? And what, just back away for ever and let Allen do what he wants, whether successful or not? That is not how it works. The owner can never fully back away because they ARE the boss. It is up to him to make decisions on the other bosses when they need to be made. I do think they can be successful under Dan if he takes a hands off approach. But you have to hire the right President/GM. And after a few years, when it is painfully obvious that you don't have the right people, you try again. 

 

 

 

In theory this should be correct and is for many people/organizations. But hands off or not, it's the culture he fosters. So it's the type of people he hires. As soon as someone tries to instill a different culture in the organization they get fired or allowed to leave the organization to go somewhere else and be successful. So Ok, he stops making day to day decisions - which I believe he did a long time ago. It really does not matter because the culture he fosters does is not conducive to getting the best out of his people. 

 

So no matter who you hire, they will underachieve which is really my point. I am pretty sure that were BB to come here (never going to happen, just making an point), he would under achieve here too. Could be wrong but so far 20+ of Dan have proven my theory to be accurate.  

[dballer]

34 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

In theory this should be correct and is for many people/organizations. But hands off or not, it's the culture he fosters. So it's the type of people he hires. As soon as someone tries to instill a different culture in the organization they get fired or allowed to leave the organization to go somewhere else and be successful. So Ok, he stops making day to day decisions - which I believe he did a long time ago. It really does not matter because the culture he fosters does is not conducive to getting the best out of his people. 

 

So no matter who you hire, they will underachieve which is really my point. I am pretty sure that were BB to come here (never going to happen, just making an point), he would under achieve here too. Could be wrong but so far 20+ of Dan have proven my theory to be accurate.  

 

I hate going this route, because there is no light at the end of the tunnel here. I have to leave open the possibility that we can bring someone in that can change all of that. I think most believe that Bruce is at least a little better than Vinny, so maybe the next guy will be a little better than Bruce. I can't lose that hope, it is the only thing to keep me going with this franchise! 

[goskins10]

7 minutes ago, dballer said:

 

I hate going this route, because there is no light at the end of the tunnel here. I have to leave open the possibility that we can bring someone in that can change all of that. I think most believe that Bruce is at least a little better than Vinny, so maybe the next guy will be a little better than Bruce. I can't lose that hope, it is the only thing to keep me going with this franchise! 

 

I am with you in terms of hope. I always hope I am wrong and Dan finally gets it right. But with each total **** up by Dan comes a little less optimism. The fact is I do now believe there is no light. That as long as Dan owns the team this is who we are and will be. 

 

I honestly feel bad for fans who started rooting for this team starting in the 1990s. At those of old folks have seen what a truly classy and winning franchise looks like. We have seen the good times. They have seen nothing but garbage. I commend them for sticking with it. I have been with them since the late 1960s. And even I have had moments of **** this, maybe I should start watching more tennis. 

 

[brettstr]

Does anyone here believe O'Connell is the best choice?

 

Great thread

[Alexa]

Dan is the only one that can change the culture. When he goes out to Fed Ex Sun and sees it filled w/ Cowboys fans I wonder what he thinks? Or maybe he really just doesn't care all that much. The Redskins have made him a ton of money. He can go out and hide on his mega boat.

[goskins10]

24 minutes ago, Alexa said:

Dan is the only one that can change the culture. When he goes out to Fed Ex Sun and sees it filled w/ Cowboys fans I wonder what he thinks? Or maybe he really just doesn't care all that much. The Redskins have made him a ton of money. He can go out and hide on his mega boat.

 

The sad part is that i pretty certain he really cares. In fact I think he cares a lot. Both from a business standpoint and a personal standpoint. Most of his life before buying the team he was just like us - a rabid fan. 

 

But he is too inflexible to do what it actually takes to build a winning culture. It goes against how he likes to run his businesses and what he at least believes has been successful in the past. So far, his desire to be comfortable with the people around and his ego that he knows better than everyone else has prevented him from doing the right thing.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, goskins10 said:

Nothing will change as long as Dan Snyder owns the team. He is the problem. And people can talk all they want about him backing out of things. Of him giving more control. The fact is everyone that comes to this team underachieves from the FO all the way down to players.

 

The one common denominator to all this underachieving is one person and one person only - Dan Snyder. He is the cancer. He sets the culture. He forms the leadership. They reflect his ideals, goals and beliefs. They foster the culture he wants. I can't even blame Bruce as he is doing what he is being told to do by his boss. In that light he is good at communicating and fostering the culture Dan wants. That's why he is still here despite an abysmal record with no PO wins in 9 seasons. Now it doesn't help that he apparently also likes this type of culture. But as much as a despise Bruce, it all starts at the top. If Dan did not like this type of culture he would moved on from Bruce very quickly if he even hired him at all. 

 

The culture Dan prefers to work in is counterproductive to a successful football team. It may work in business - although there are clearly questions about that too - but it just does not work in football. We have > 20 yrs of data that prove this point. So until he leaves nothing will significantly change. 

 

I agree with all of this. My only perhaps slight different twist is I do think Bruce is his own unique problem.   Based on what's been reported behind the scenes (granted there is no way to know for sure) Bruce brings his own unique brand of dysfunction.   It's Batman and Robin but the sad version of it.   The Prince of Darkness label was foisted on Bruce before he got here.  One of his former co-workers who worked with him in the Raiders thinks he's an incompetent boob.  I do buy that he's put his own stamp on the craziness. 

 

Some (not you) seem to take me at times when I slam Bruce that its a backhanded complement to Dan since I take the focus off of him in that moment.  Actually though it's the reverse.  To me the fact that Dan is the most dysfunctional and incompetent owner in the NFL AND he's attracted to likeminded people to me makes him even more pathetic.  It's one thing to get in your own way and not know what you are doing.  But for someone to be so incompetent that he can't hire good people as well -- makes his ineptness reach epic levels.  Ditto that he seems to miss that IMO his eroding fan base is directly correlated to this issue i lay out.    I don't think it's a coincidence that Dan's last buzz came with the Scot hire.  And it wasn't that people per se were excited by Scot but that they for a fleeting amount of time thought their owner understands what it takes to win.

 

Some say they are disappointed that the fan base has checked out so much and cited the Browns among other examples of fans hanging in there.  One difference though to me is the Browns owners (they have had multiple so that in itself gives some hope that you aren't always stuck with the same one) kept trying new things with their FO, they came off like they get at least that they got a problem and were trying to fix it.   They hired the analytics guys, tried this, tried that.  Yeah they fumbled their way on some of it but they tried and kept trying.   

 

Different scene here.  I can't think of an organization that has had both a maligned owner and a lieutenant almost equally despised.  Back to back ones.   And for almost every year of the ownership.    It's a unique situation.   The Browns for example have come off at least in recent years with a bear with us, we are trying something new, we hear you approach.   The challenge Dan poses to Redskins fans as opposed to other teams is that for us  -- Dan doesn't just challenge hope for the present but also challenge hope for the future.  That is, you feel like it's never going to change.

 

I am a diehard fan and Dan can't chase me away.  But I get why the more casual fans check out.  Some think I am too rough on Bruce.  And look I've said many times, I don't think he's awful at his job but so so.  And I don't blame Bruce for hiring himself.  Dan did.  Dan put him in that position.   But the fact that Bruce is not likable IMO is a problem considering the owner already has the same issue.   And yes Dan has improved on some fronts.  Yes this team doesn't stink -- I probably am one of the biggest leaders of that chorus.  Yet, why do I get so negative about Dan and the FO structure?  I just can't get that excited about a C level operation that still has the air of sleaze and dysfunction attached to it.  Simple as that.   And I can't celebrate an owner who can help fix his PR issues pretty quickly in my view if he can get off being so stubborn and insistent that he can show the world that he will finally win HIS way. 

 

The more i read and hear things mentioned about Dan, the more it paints a picture that he comes off like a dude who has slightly improved but otherwise is still an emotionally high strung dude, who is immature in some sense yet he is old school and behind the times in other ways.  And his weird desire to use his ownership to fuel his social life has led to weird trips that have brought us Jim Zorn, the RG3 saga, Vinny, Bruce and I am sure more to come. 

 

 

Edited September 11 by Skinsinparadise

[goskins10]

28 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I agree with all of this. My only perhaps slight different twist is I do think Bruce is his own unique problem.   Based on what's been reported behind the scenes (granted there is no way to know for sure) Bruce brings his own unique brand of dysfunction.   It's Batman and Robin but the sad version of it.   The Prince of Darkness label was foisted on Bruce before he got here.  One of his former co-workers who worked with him in the Raiders thinks he's an incompetent boob.  I do buy that he's put his own stamp on the craziness. 

 

Edit

 

 

 

i agree with you here. I should have made that more clear. My point was that it's too hard to blame Bruce overall as he is not only enabled, he is encouraged by Dan. And they both share similar ideas of how they want the team to operate. 

 

So when i say I don't blame Bruce it's only from the standpoint that he is doing what Dan wants and Dan is the only one who can change that. Dan is the ultimate problem. Bruce to me is more a by product. But I was in no means taking Bruce off the hook for his contributions to the ignorance and dysfunction. 

Edited September 11 by goskins10

[Chachie]

On 9/10/2019 at 12:22 AM, wtfskins said:

Awesome topic!  I believe every word DJax said.  The Redskins get rid of their best players every year.  Antonio Pierce, Kendall Fuller with us was playing lights out, swearinger, and many more fan favorites. Brian Orakpo, Thomas Robinson, this organization is a dumpster fire! 

 

 

 

 

The organization was a dumpster fire when all of those players were here. This dumpster never burns out.

[SkinsFTW]

43 minutes ago, Chachie said:

 

 

The organization was a dumpster fire when all of those players were here. This dumpster never burns out.

 

It was also a dumpster fire years before they were here.

 

You are correct in stating the fact that it seemingly never burns out. In another generation no one will remember anything else.

 

I think it requires it's own grand title at this point.

 

I hereby proclaim the Washington Redskins The Dumpster Fire of Perpetual Warmth.

 

Maybe someone else can come up with something better.

[skinzplay]

3 hours ago, brettstr said:

Does anyone here believe O'Connell is the best choice?

 

Great thread

 

I do not, and am still waiting to see some kind of rationale for the high level of confidence many on the board seem to have of him as an imminent HC for the Skins. Nothing against the guy......it just doesn't seem like he has much of a pedigree in terms of having accomplished anything anywhere else, or having shown any kind of leadership skills that you look for in a potential HC. I also wonder if it was actually Gruden's idea to hire him. Don't know that it wasn't.....I'm genuinely curious because he came out of nowhere.

[brettstr]

2 minutes ago, skinzplay said:

 

I do not, and am still waiting to see some kind of rationale for the high level of confidence many on the board seem to have of him as an imminent HC for the Skins. Nothing against the guy......it just doesn't seem like he has much of a pedigree in terms of having accomplished anything anywhere else, or having shown any kind of leadership skills that you look for in a potential HC. I also wonder if it was actually Gruden's idea to hire him. Don't know that it wasn't.....I'm genuinely curious because he came out of nowhere.

 

Wow. Something to think about. Maybe they should use the team of professionals or database that the Capitals used to find a new coach that is up and coming. As a matter of fact, do just what the Capitals did,. Reboot the entire management teams except Kyle Smith

[dballer]

On 9/10/2019 at 12:22 AM, wtfskins said:

Awesome topic!  I believe every word DJax said.  The Redskins get rid of their best players every year.  Antonio Pierce, Kendall Fuller with us was playing lights out, swearinger, and many more fan favorites. Brian Orakpo, Thomas Robinson, this organization is a dumpster fire! 

 

 

 

Wait...is this satire?

 

Who the heck was Thomas Robinson? 

 

Edited September 11 by dballer

[Skinsinparadise]

Some beat guys think Jay has had enough and is a bit burnt out from working with the FO.  It could be an interesting soap operaish kind of season on that front

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

The article below illustrates my point.  For being one of the youngest owners during his own reign, Dan oddly isn't an innovator of squat outside of making money.    When do we recall reading about how the Redskins are the first to do such and such?  They seem to be catching up with trends as opposed to setting them.  Maybe an exception (but its purely coaching - not ownership driven) was in 2012 with the RO driven offense. 

 

 

The relationship between analyst and coach is melding further with the dawn of league-wide player-tracking data. Eagles owner Jeffrey Lurie predicted in 2016 that this radio frequency identification (RFID) technology would "revolutionize the sport in the long run" and made sure his team was well-positioned to handle the flood of information that hit the NFL as the league released two years' worth of game data last spring.

 

Since 2014, the NFL has worked with Zebra Technologies to outfit its stadiums with RFID technology that tracks and records the real-time position and movement of all players using a chip embedded under their shoulder pads.

 

The Eagles were first in line to have the corresponding technology installed in their practice facility in 2014 -- only a third of the league has followed suit in the five years since -- and built up an already-robust analytics department to decode and weaponize the information that has been captured. The Eagles are one of only a few teams applying that information to help shape game plans and strategy, according to Zebra vice president of sports business development John Pollard.

 

"The Eagles have long been at the forefront of using technological advances and information and trying to utilize that to the best of their advantage," Pollard said. "They're a model organization in terms of considering the use of information and how they actually apply it day in and day out."

Edited September 11 by Skinsinparadise

[dballer]

16 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Some beat guys think Jay has had enough and is a bit burnt out from working with the FO.  It could be an interesting soap operaish kind of season on that front

 

I am still pulling for a successful season, and I think there is a chance of it. BUT, if it goes bad, I hope it goes ALL the way bad. I hope Jay lights it on fire on his way out. I don't think it'll hurt him in the future if he goes napalm on this FO. He will get an OC job right away. No one will think bad of him if he trashes this Owner/GM. 

[LightningBuggs]

16 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Some beat guys think Jay has had enough and is a bit burnt out from working with the FO.  It could be an interesting soap operaish kind of season on that front

 

 

My immediate reaction to the AP situation on Sunday was that it was Jay's "Norv sending Eddie Murray out to kick a 49 yd GW kick vs the Giants that was WAY out of his range" moment.  Meaning it was Jay telling the FO, "Please fire me.  I'm done here."

[veteranskinsfan]

Jay knows where all of the bodies are buried.  He can go work for the Raiders too as offensive coordinator.

[GoDeep81]

On 9/10/2019 at 2:27 AM, skinzplay said:

Snyder is aware of what needs to be done. He's being hoodwinked with the "keep me around to get this stadium deal" jedi mind game;

 

I live out of state (not much DC sports news) and have heard this ^^ numerous times. Why is it that Dan thinks Bruce is the only one that can get a stadium deal done? 

 

* also read some twitter thread about Desean saying something along the lines of - I know that team, they probably went in at half time thinking the game was over- Sounds about right.. 

[jbird]

53 minutes ago, GoDeep81 said:

 

I live out of state (not much DC sports news) and have heard this ^^ numerous times. Why is it that Dan thinks Bruce is the only one that can get a stadium deal done? 

 

* also read some twitter thread about Desean saying something along the lines of - I know that team, they probably went in at half time thinking the game was over- Sounds about right.. 

Maybe DJack was right, and hopefully this iights a fire under the team to give it 110% every play, every quarter until the clock runs out in the 4th or overtime. 

 

Maybe we blow out the Cowboys? "sigh"