The Skins Can't Win With These Coaches

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Yeah but so what?  It’s part of the coach’s job to fix this.  This is one area where I just don’t see a lot of influence by Dan and Bruce.  

 

 

I apologize for bringing up other points in this mix, that don't really even defend Jay but since you take it that way - then sorry back on point.  😀

 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

40 minutes ago, skinsmania123 said:

I can't disagree but seems what with other coaches, even Gibbs 2, if I remember correctly the complete fall happened in the 4th quarter.  With Shanny, you got the same flat performances coming into the 3rd quarter.  

 

I remember being at the infamous Buffalo game post the tragedy with Sean and a fan a row ahead of me started joking in the 2nd half let the 2nd half collapse begin.  Everyone within earshot laughed then because we all knew exactly what he meant because they were so famous for it.   And alas it indeed happened.

 

My point there wasn't to defend Jay on this front but to pile on with Snider's point which is there seems to be weird voodoo with this club.  There are weaknesses with this club that have oddly gone from one coaching regime to another and that includes the 2nd half losses and embarassing performances on prime time TV especially MNF.  

 

[RandyHolt]

I heard Galdi saying that Callahan is Bruce's guy.  I never really thought about that. 

 

But one thing i realized, Bruce inked AP to a 2 year contract, the same total years remaining as Jay Gruden (i had previously thought his contracted ended at the end of this season). So if Jay truly doesn't think AP is a good fit for the offense, that 2 year contract tethering Jay to AP may help explain him inactive week 1.  Not that AP cannot carry the ball, its possibly just Bruce getting players and ignoring Jays input.

 

I think Jay is starting to get pissed.  Galdi had a clip of him being asked "3000 times about concussions."   

 

A loss this sunday with our stadium overrun as per usual, is going to be very demoralizing.  Jay needs a win. Hopefully Casey AP and TMC can carry us to victory.  If we lose, I want to see Jay fired up. **** this Droopy bit "I need to check the tape". Its time to get pissed and fire up the team.

 

Make sure to catch Callahan at :55 seconds. He is not nearly made enough to make the top 10.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

23 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

I heard Galdi saying that Callahan is Bruce's guy.  I never really thought about that. 

 

But one thing i realized, Bruce inked AP to a 2 year contract, the same total years remaining as Jay Gruden (i had previously thought his contracted ended at the end of this season). So if Jay truly doesn't think AP is a good fit for the offense, that 2 year contract tethering Jay to AP may help explain him inactive week 1.  Not that AP cannot carry the ball, its possibly just Bruce getting players and ignoring Jays input.

 

 

 

Russell was talking about this during the off season saying Jay and Callahan don't always see eye to eye and Jay wouldn't hate to see him leave.  Callahan is the play call designer for running plays.  Cooley likes to say that Callahan has too many different types of run plays in the mix which makes it difficult for the running backs and the O line to execute and it doesn't mesh well with Jay's passing game.

 

This week Russell said that Jay couldn't get rid of Callahan from what he knows even if he wanted to because he is Bruce's guy.  Though Sheehan said today that he heard that Bruce is with Jay though on the Guice-Peterson dynamic.   But overall according to Sheehan, Jay's on edge just in general.  

 

All of this is obviously rumor stuff.  But I find it ironic that multiple beat guys predicted this in the off season saying Jay has had it and is in a WTF mood where he feels like he has nothing to lose.

 

I am not swearing that this all must be true.  You got me.  But add it to the pile of strange narratives if it is true or at least part of it is true.

 

I know Callahan is a legend and is untouchable to some.  But if he had any other name I think he'd been challenged some.  His unit gets hurt a lot and some say he wears them down by overworking them in practice.  They led the league in O line penalties.   And he is the dude who is in charge of the running game -- which has their share of critics. 

[RandyHolt]

FWIW Tim Brown's bizarre comments post super bowl loss regarding Callahan changing the game plan at the last moment, is not something we see every day.   But if true, it may lend credence to Bill overloading his players mentally.  Callahan came out with an immediate and detailed defense of it, but it to this day still strikes me as a very odd moment on super bowl history.   Jerry Rice backed Brown. These are 2 VERY respected players we are talking about.  And apparently Callahan hated Oakland.

 

I think most turned a blind eye to this but I stumbled upon it, when he was hired by us.

 

" Brown said that when the Raiders got the game plan on the Monday before the Super Bowl, it was a run-heavy attack taking advantage of Oakland's size advantage on the offensive line. However, Brown said Callahan scrapped the plan on Friday to the shock of the team.  "We all called it sabotage ... because Callahan and Gruden were good friends. And Callahan had a big problem with the Raiders, you know, hated the Raiders. You know, only came because Gruden made him come. Literally walked off the field on us a couple of times during the season when he first got there, the first couple years."   Rice said the Raiders' game plan did change on the Friday before the Super Bowl and the team was surprised by that, "because you worked all week long on running the football." On Friday, Callahan put in a new plan that had the team throwing the ball more than 60 times.

 

"Why would you wait to the last second to change the game plan?" Rice said.  He echoed Brown's theory that Callahan might have been willing to let Gruden win the game."

 

So Bruce pairs up Bill with Jay, because Bill and Jon were buds. its a no brainer, what could go wrong.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I apologize for bringing up other points in this mix, that don't really even defend Jay but since you take it that way - then sorry back on point.  😀

 

 

 

 

 

I didn’t really read it as a defense of Jay.  It’s just looking for reasoning.  There are things where Jay, and ALL of the coaches are effected by Bruce and Dan.  

 

Then there are other things which they do to themselves for a variety of reasons.  

 

I was simply pointing out that I think this trend is more coincidence than it is a organization thing.  

[Skinsinparadise]

49 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I didn’t really read it as a defense of Jay.  It’s just looking for reasoning.  There are things where Jay, and ALL of the coaches are effected by Bruce and Dan.  

 

Then there are other things which they do to themselves for a variety of reasons.  

 

I was simply pointing out that I think this trend is more coincidence than it is a organization thing.  

 

OK to me I think its mostly a function of having bad teams whether its about coaching, the FO, or a combination of both.  When they were ahead of the Eagles, it ran through my mind that at half time the Eagles probably told themselves hey we are letting these runts beat us, how pathetic -- lets take this game over.  Good teams can take over games.  Bad teams lose leads.  I think its all part of the soup.  But yeah the Redskins seem even worse than the typical bad team on this front. 

 

Desean Jackson is the mix of what he said implied that the Redskins and Bucs had losing cultures and it was refreshing to be in a winning culture.  The Eagles FO is kick butt and known for their innovation.  The coaches respected, too.  Loaded rosters, etc.

 

I get part of your point is there could be multiple problems.  I don't live and die with Jay.  It wouldn't bother if he stays, wouldn't bother me if he goes.  There are upsides and downsides to both.  But regardless, I see him as a dead man walking so the point is close to irrelevant to me.  Hence i bring up then what's next?  I think the odds that Bruce makes the next call at HC is actually good with the stadium situation supposedly still in limbo for at least a year.

 

I like the profile of O'Connell.  But for me a head coach isn't all about X's and O's.  A team's culture is partly personality driven.  O'Connell strikes me a nice guy-players coach type.  Can someone like that override the FO culture?  I don't know.  If feels like to override a bad culture you need a Marty-Parcells type.  A dude that just takes over everything and with a balls to the wall type personality.  Would someone like that want to come here?  Would Dan or Bruce want a dude like that?  I don't know.  And yeah I am much more focused on what's next because it seems inevitable that a change will happen.   But if so then what?  i am not in the camp then anything new will beat what we got now. 

 

One of the reasons why I am so Bruce focused is because he seems the dude that is potentially entrenched and is difficult to dislodge.  If somehow he can be pushed out, that would give me some hope.  If my concern was Jay, then I'd be relaxed because I don't see how that's not happening -- unless Haskins ends up playing and shining at some point. 

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

@Skinsinparadise Probably the most frustrating thing about this whole Adrian Peterson thing is that Jay was wrong, and it is making Bruce look good.

 

 I have wanted Jay to stand up for himself, but I was really hoping he would do it when he was right about something.  So Bruce would look like the idiot he is. 

 

So far, that isn’t happening. Jay picked the wrong thing to stand up for himself about, and it is making Bruce look good.

[megared]

5 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

@Skinsinparadise Probably the most frustrating thing about this whole Adrian Peterson thing is that Jay was wrong, and it is making Bruce look good.

 

Agreed. 

 

Find it hard to believe they're working this hard to manage the roster, when they're currently wasting a roster spot on Colt McCoy.  Are they really that worried about another team signing him, while he's still injured?  

[skinsmania123]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I remember being at the infamous Buffalo game post the tragedy with Sean and a fan a row ahead of me started joking in the 2nd half let the 2nd half collapse begin.  Everyone within earshot laughed then because we all knew exactly what he meant because they were so famous for it.   And alas it indeed happened.

 

My point there wasn't to defend Jay on this front but to pile on with Snider's point which is there seems to be weird voodoo with this club.  There are weaknesses with this club that have oddly gone from one coaching regime to another and that includes the 2nd half losses and embarassing performances on prime time TV especially MNF.  

 

 I think voodoo is actually a good word for it.  It made me laugh reading Snider's comments.  No I understand that you are not defending Jay but pointing out a history that sadly enough that looks like a diseased franchise.  The injury pileup the last two years certainly seems to indicate that there is no level of abatement.

[Burgold]

I find myself hesitating before typing every post. I think that may be the most damning thing of all.

 

So many moves lacking foresight. I don't think I blame Gruden for Guice's injury, but I do blame him for not thinking through things and making a back up available. I do blame him for losing Holtz by cutting him before Reed has been cleared to play.

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, megared said:

 

Agreed. 

 

Find it hard to believe they're working this hard to manage the roster, when they're currently wasting a roster spot on Colt McCoy.  Are they really that worried about another team signing him, while he's still injured?  

First, I'm convinced he would have started Colt if Colt had been healthy..

 

When he wasn't healthy, he is insurance for Case playing poorly, or getting hurt.  During the competitive part of the season, there's no way Jay is going to go with Haskins unless both Case and Colt are hurt.  

 

The real question, and this is complete and total gross negligence on the part of somebody is why in the hell Colt didn't START training camp on the PUP list if he wasn't healthy.  Because if he started on PUP, they could have kept him on PUP, and not had to IR him and then use a "return from IR" spot on him.  

 

There seemed to be more emotion and hope involved in the decision not to PUP Colt rather than logic and reason.  And again, I have NO IDEA who's call that is.  Medical? Coaching?  FO?  All? I'm not callign anybody out, I have no idea.  

 

However, with the benefit of hindsight, Colt should have been on PUP since day 1 and should probably still be on PUP.  

 

[Burgold]

9 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

The real question, and this is complete and total gross negligence on the part of somebody is why in the hell Colt didn't START training camp on the PUP list if he wasn't healthy.  Because if he started on PUP, they could have kept him on PUP, and not had to IR him and then use a "return from IR" spot on him.  

Wasn't thinking about it in this direction, but makes me wonder about both Trent's complaints about the 'skins and their medical staff and whether Guice needed to held out too. After all, I think it turns out there was a reason they never wanted to play him in the preseason and said he wasn't even cleared for contact until game 3. Are the coaches making calls against their players' interests?

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

OK to me I think its mostly a function of having bad teams whether its about coaching, the FO, or a combination of both.  When they were ahead of the Eagles, it ran through my mind that at half time the Eagles probably told themselves hey we are letting these runts beat us, how pathetic -- lets take this game over.  Good teams can take over games.  Bad teams lose leads.  I think its all part of the soup.  But yeah the Redskins seem even worse than the typical bad team on this front. 

I get some of this.  But at some point, if you're good enough to build a 17-20 point lead, you should be good enough to hold it.  If you have a 3 possession lead, and there are what, and average of 5-7 possessions in a half, you really should be able to keep your nose ahead even against a good team.  

 

You're going to have SOME occurrences when a good team just turns it on and storms back.  The issue is that it's not an every now and then thing, it's a repeatable trend for this coaching staff for 5 years. 

 

In the AFC Championship game the Colts won over the Patriots before they won the SB over the bears (2006 season I think?) the Pats had a 19-0 lead just before the half.  The Colts stormed back and won the game. Both teams were exceptional in just about every way.  Exceptionally well coached, with 2 first ballot all-time QBs.  Belichick might be the best coach in NFL history. So, comebacks happen. To everybody.  And you can forgive them if they happen occationally.

 

It's when it becomes a trend over years to the same coach, even with different players and staff members when you point to the coaching and say, "what could we do differently to stop this from happening?"

 

I'm not even killing Jay for losing to the Eagles or letting the Eagles back into the game on Sunday.  It happens.  The Eagles are good.  

 

What is troubling is the trend.  And all of the trends.  Blown coverage.  Trend.  Holding penalties.  Trend.  False starts.  Trend.  Blown lead.  Trend.  

 

If it was something new, that would be different. 

 

I also think Jay is probably gone.  I hope Bruce goes first.  Or at the same time.  If Dan REALLY gets upset, he could do what he did in 2009, and ninja Vinny while getting Shanahan and Bruce on board without anybody knowing anything about it, and then BANG, all of sudden it's regime change.  There's no reason he couldn't do that.  I don't think it will happen, but it could.

 

I still say the perfect person is Peyton Manning.  But I doubt that anybody has considered it.

 

 

1 minute ago, Burgold said:

Wasn't thinking about it in this direction, but makes me wonder about both Trent's complaints about the 'skins and their medical staff and whether Guice needed to held out too. After all, I think it turns out there was a reason they never wanted to play him in the preseason and said he wasn't even cleared for contact until game 3. Are the coaches making calls against their players' interests?

It's impossible to tell, and I don't want to speculate.  I don't think Jay would, or even COULD, go against the medical.  If a player isn't cleared, he isn't cleared.

 

But there's no question there's something not quite right in Denmark here.  Somebody had to know Colt was hurt and shouldn't be practicing. Somebody should have decided Guice probably needed to be eased in a bit.  

 

I would NEVER accuse Jay or the coaches of doing something which would not be in the players best interest.  

 

But Colt should have been on PUP.  That's as much of a strategic decision as a medical decision.  

 

I don't know if less carries would have helped Guice or not.  I do know that the 'Skins are a better team with AP and Guice active, and that a good coach figures out how to use that to his advantage.  Rather than being stubborn about it and wanting to do things in the same way he's been doing which have produced mediocre results.

[Burgold]

2 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I still say the perfect person is Peyton Manning.  But I doubt that anybody has considered it.

 

 

Peyton Manning could be a really interesting OC or QB coach for Haskins. It would certainly be a risk, but Haskins is a cerebral not very mobile QB and might play well in the Peyton style of analyzing defenses and diagnosing how to beat them.

 

Be a big gamble as he's never coached before, but one could argue he has been an OC in Denver and Indi.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

@Skinsinparadise Probably the most frustrating thing about this whole Adrian Peterson thing is that Jay was wrong, and it is making Bruce look good.

 

 I have wanted Jay to stand up for himself, but I was really hoping he would do it when he was right about something.  So Bruce would look like the idiot he is. 

 

So far, that isn’t happening. Jay picked the wrong thing to stand up for himself about, and it is making Bruce look good.

 

According to Sheehan today, Bruce was actually aligned with Jay on Guice and how it played out.   If so then the disagreement came elsewhere.  

 

But again I don't get the sense that Jay has any beef about Adrian.  Hoffman's theory is if anything it was out of respect for Adrian because if they ride with Guice then Adrian wouldn't get much playing time and that would cause some tension with the dude and figured he deserved to play more.   Again there was a lot of focus on the Junkies report but their report wasn't just about releasing him -- they also mentioned trading Adrian.  I love Adrian but I got no issue with trading him considering they are likely 2 years away from being competitive. 

 

But I get the impression that Jay is far from simply standing up on Adrian and that's it but instead there is much noise behind the scenes.  The Adrian thing I gather just got exposed because of the Junkies report coupled with the deactivation.   But the vibe Russell and others have given isn't that Jay is just generally happy as a clam but if it weren't for that pesky situation with the RBs but instead there are multiple things going on.  Who knows if it ends up true but Russell seemed to suggest that Jay needs to watch it otherwise he might be canned during the season. 

[megared]

41 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

First, I'm convinced he would have started Colt if Colt had been healthy..

 

When he wasn't healthy, he is insurance for Case playing poorly, or getting hurt.  During the competitive part of the season, there's no way Jay is going to go with Haskins unless both Case and Colt are hurt.  

 

The real question, and this is complete and total gross negligence on the part of somebody is why in the hell Colt didn't START training camp on the PUP list if he wasn't healthy.  Because if he started on PUP, they could have kept him on PUP, and not had to IR him and then use a "return from IR" spot on him.  

 

There seemed to be more emotion and hope involved in the decision not to PUP Colt rather than logic and reason.  And again, I have NO IDEA who's call that is.  Medical? Coaching?  FO?  All? I'm not callign anybody out, I have no idea.  

 

However, with the benefit of hindsight, Colt should have been on PUP since day 1 and should probably still be on PUP.  

 

 

I can understand wanting Colt there as insurance. 

 

But what happens right now if Case is injured while Colt's unavailable?  We have to go to Haskins anyways. 

 

Unless Colt is back in the next week or two, there's no reason why he wasn't placed on IR (with a return designation) when final rosters were set.  Or they could've reached an injury settlement and told him to stay near his phone.  In the meantime, you pick up a capable backup that would prevent us from having to throw the rookie in if Case goes down.

[Sonny9TD]

Just saw press conference with Manusky and Gruen. Manusky didn't know what he was talking about other than "yea we have to communicate better and were getting there'. They should already be there. No freaking wonder. These coaches would struggle at the high school level.

[JoggingGod]

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I like the profile of O'Connell.  But for me a head coach isn't all about X's and O's.  A team's culture is partly personality driven.  O'Connell strikes me a nice guy-players coach type. 

Culture has literally nothing to do with coaches acting tough. Sean Payton isn't a hardass and he's still one of the best coaches. Same with Doug Pederson.

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, JoggingGod said:

Culture has literally nothing to do with coaches acting tough. Sean Payton isn't a hardass and he's still one of the best coaches. Same with Doug Pederson.

 

Agree but the culture challenge IMO runs much deeper here than the run of the mill situation because of Dan-Bruce.

 

I am cool with Jay.  But I don't live and die with his longevity here one way or another.  My focus is on changing that FO.  Dan is by a mile the biggest issue so all I can do is hope that he stumbles on a BFF that is more competent and classy than Vinny or Bruce.  

 

Frankly i am not sure how to override a bad culture from above.   So my stab in the dark at it is a strong personality who usurps control and is willing to battle with the FO.  A guy like a Saban type.  I am not saying it would work out or for that matter Dan would hire a person like that and stick with them.

 

But count me out of the crowd that thinks if we get rid of Jay happy days are in the offing. 

[kingdaddy]

Don't know if this was suggested by anyone, but wouldn't it make sense to interview Alabama's d coordinator to see if we'd and he'd be interested in reuniting him with his alums?

Just a thought. 

[Captain James]

14 hours ago, Sonny9TD said:

Just saw press conference with Manusky and Gruen. Manusky didn't know what he was talking about other than "yea we have to communicate better and were getting there'. They should already be there. No freaking wonder. These coaches would struggle at the high school level.

For realz. EVERY game counts at this point. This isn't a dress rehearsal anymore. It's annoying when a team is still struggling with the basics when the real games begin. Instead of just letting the team with the better players and best performance win, we end up just giving teams a head start.

[illone]

I didnt read every post in here, but I dont see very people defending the grudes.

 

Who should be the next HC/DC?

 

We missed the boat on McVay/Bowles so who else is out there?

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I love the complaint of "can't adjust." No one ever says what that means.

 

"Things were working for a while and then they didn't. It was those damn adjustments again."

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

1 hour ago, illone said:

I didnt read every post in here, but I dont see very people defending the grudes.

 

Who should be the next HC/DC?

 

We missed the boat on McVay/Bowles so who else is out there?

If it were me..I'd ask Gregg Williams for HC. Attitude is what we are missing...just devoid of aggression..everything if soft..playing probabilities like Madden. Not trying to scare people into mistakes. Rushing 3 for ANY REASON is soft play. A good QB with good receivers with enough time can make a completion as we saw 13/14 times. Most people would get a clue 3 outa 4. 13 outa 14 is just plain STUPID