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Burgold

Where do you think Jay Gruden and Greg Manusky rank?

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Just now, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

 

He's also got roster talent up the ying yang.

With that roster, I think he should have done more.

Aren't they also picked to win the Super Bowl practically every year, or something close to that ? lol

Yeah, but on the flip side he manages to survive with Jerrah’s ego and ridiculousness as well.  

 

You have to give him credit where it’s due.  

 

He kept the team together last year and it surged at the end.  

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1 minute ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Yeah, but on the flip side he manages to survive with Jerrah’s ego and ridiculousness as well.  

 

You have to give him credit where it’s due.  

 

He kept the team together last year and it surged at the end.  

 

On the flip side of that, to be fair Jay has obviously had to put up with a whole lot more drama over the years, that was none of his doing.

Even though it has practically zero chance of happening, I wouldn't mind seeing Jay take on a dual role of GM and Head Coach. For a couple reasons.

One, I think he's a good evaluator of talent. And two, we'd see a lot less drama in the building, if Jay were GM.

 

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7 hours ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

...you honest to goodness think Jay ****ing Gruden is better than Mike Tomlin?

 

Tomlin is a damn good coach, I'll never understand the shade thrown his way quite often it seems. 

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Jay's last few seasons were pretty much rank, but injuries did play a big part.

Even when he HAD opportunities, he got out-coached. The Giants game, where all he had to do was win, against a Giants team that was not playing for anything, AT HOME, and Jay didn't have the team mentally ready, and they were mentally embarrassed on the field and failed to make the paloffs.

 

That game told me everything I needed to know about Jay Gruden. This is his make or break year, mediocrity is not a goal but that's all we can seem to muster up.

 

Manusky? He was more or less in the right place at the right time, with a team that had some good defenses. Win or lose, a good DC shouldn't be blown out of a stadium like what happened against the Saints, Falcons, Giants or Eagles last season.  Losing by 20+ points in multiple games tells me there's a problem.

 

Gruden is prob in the 16-20 out of 32, and Manusky is in the 24-28 out of 32.

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7 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Jon went on a run for about 4 years where he was the best coach in the nfl.  He built that Raiders team to be a SB contender, and might have won one in Oakland minus the tuck rule, then went to Tampa and took Dungy’s team and beat his old team... with freaking Brad Johnson as QB.

 

Ot really was like the Bum Phillips quote about Don Shula: (paraphrased) “He could take his and beat yours, or yours and beat his.”

 

Actually the biggest knock on Bruce is he basically unraveled everything Jon did in Tampa. 

 

Jon has just become a caricature of himself.  And seemingly forgotten how to coach.  

 

Best in the NFL?  I dont remember that conversation in 2002 when his offense couldnt get out it's own way while Dungys historically good defense won him a Super Bowl.  He also had some really good old man talent in Oakland before he left (didnt they rank number 1 the year after he left when he played against them in the super bowl?), more then enough to do damage with.  I'm almost afraid to ask your opinion of Brian Billick now.

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Jay - In Washington, I've got to give him a B.  He's getting graded on a curve for everything he puts up with here.  He consistently schemes up plays that get guys open.  He's got the right personality for dealing with the drama that regularly exists.  He has an eye for talent, in both players and coaches.  On the downside, I don't like the whole hybrid running game.  Clock/game management can use some work, but I don't think it's as atrocious as many make it out to be.  It's hard for me to hold his selections for defensive coordinators against him because I don't know what he was up against in those hires.  The water has been a bit murky in regards to just how much say/$ he had to work with.  If his gut really told him Haslett, Barry and Manusky were the best fit, then his grade drops a bit.  But we'll never know.

 

Manusky - I'll just say that I don't think you'll ever hear any OC's or head coaches naming him as a guy that frustrates them with his schemes.  The only thing I like about him is that he used to play here and he seems like a cool dude.  Nothing about his ability to coordinate defense gives me the warm and fuzzies.  C-.

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My scouting report on Jay

 

Underrated and rarely mentioned aspect about him here but its been said by multiple sources.

 

A.  It's been said in so many different ways that he is the 2nd best talent evaluator on the team and is a key ally behind the scenes to Kyle Smith.  And kyle and Jay are close.

B.  He knows how to work the FO zoo and Dan.

C.  Is a buffer to players who don't per se love everyone else.  Players love Jay.  Doug also helps on that front

D.  Makes the team more likable.  

 

Strengths

 

A.  His receivers (even the Jag ones) get open.  Many offensive film geeks including Benoit said he is one of the best play designers in the league

B.  Good talent evaluator

C.  The team bounces back usually from bad loses.  It's been the most consistently competitive team during Dan's era.  As sad as it sounds, the last three years has been the most consistent run under Dan.

D.  Likable and charismatic and IMO has some good leadership attributes.   I like his personality. 

E.  Can roll with the punches which IMO is an important attribute to survive the media and the chaos that often surrounds the team

F.  He's good at the podium.  He doesn't make the faux pas statements that Bruce, Doug, etc make.  So he can handle tough questions.

 

Weaknesses

 

A.  The sequences of play calling.  When to call a run, when to call a pass.  Too predictable on that front IMO.  If all he did is stop running on first down, that would IMO fix 80% of this.  I've not become a fan of ANY HC calling plays.  I think they have enough on their plate on a given Sunday.  So I hope he helps design the plays but then lets O'Connell call them.

B.  The team bounces back well from loses but doesn't deal with prosperity well.  That's been a problem with the previous coaches, too.  A big win is often followed by a loss.

C.  Clock management.  Shanny stunk at it too so did Gibbs on his return.  I don't get what's so hard about it?

D. When a game goes really south he can come off defeatist where it seems like he gives up

 

Overall, I'd give him a B. And i am doing it on a curve.  The dude has a lot on his plate. For example the Eagles have Howie Roseman talking about roster cuts.  The Redskins have Jay do it.  Jay can get a job as a press secretary after this gig.  He's the spokesman on just about everything.   When ESPN talked about personnel moves a year back and interviewed personnel guys from around the league -- the source actually named Jay not even Kyle as the best evaluator in that building.   How many times do we hear that about other coaches?  Some yes.  But most nope.    As Breer, Garafalo among others have said no one managed the zoo over there better than Jay.

 

I get those that are so done with Jay that think anyone would be an improvement.   I disagree.  And I am not married to Jay.  Look I'd love a dude like Lincoln Riley or name that hot shot potential HC who seems killer.  But I don't see them coming here.  I get that Dan could attract them earlier in his career but I think now with a 20 year sample size -- with the running joke that coaches come here to die -- I think likely has taken its toll.  Plus Dan doesn't really outbid for coaches anymore.  Heck we lost a defensive back coach that supposedly they wanted to keep because the Rams were willing to pay more.  Laconfora said when the team was toying with adding personnel guys (post Scot's firing) it was said to him that the Redskins don't pay anymore and they can get more money elsewhere.

 

So to me I gather its O'Connell or bust because i doubt it would be a big name that's in demand.  O'Connell has some intrigue to me but he's never even been a coordinator so we are relying on hype-hope.  Last year on a Jay thread some of us were fired up about the Vikings new offensive coordinator as the next hot thing and his star faded pretty fast.  So you never know.  Right now, I am expecting Jay to be a goner so i am thinking about the future from that stand point.    but it wouldn't shock me if we are back to the days when Spags turned down a HC job from us and we ended up with Zorn or a passe guy like a Fassel type is the target.  I think the days of us being in the running for the top HCs are gone.  Unless Dan, goes like the Raiders with a crazy 10 year contract.  

 

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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Gruden is in the "should've never been hired" rank, and Manusky's ceiling is as a LB coach. I agree with the OP that, despite the injuries, more wins could've been realized with someone else at the helm. After 5 years, if your team has no identity under the HC, then you need a new HC. It would also help to have some playoff wins and a legitimate playoff run (not just one year when everyone else in your division absolutely stunk). If both had been fired in January, you can bet your bottom dollar that not one team would've hired Gruden as HC or Manusky as DC. Not one. But this is Rasputin's Redskins; that's how he rolls.

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Jay is what his record has shown, mediocre at best.  He can take you to a certain point and that's it. Manusky is mediocre at best also.

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I'd take Jay over (including new HCs):

 

Schurmer

Quinn

Rivera

Lafleur

Patricia

Gase

O'Brien

Taylor

 

I'd take Manusky over:

 

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Things to evaluate in a head coach:

 

1. Motivator. As far as I can tell, Jay seems to do reasonably well here - there are no talks of him losing the locker room. The only weakness might be if a lack of intensity/physicality in practices and preseason has caused the team to be more vulnerable to injury and smashmouth teams. That is a criticism I have heard from armchair commanders, but I don't know if it's valid.

 

2. Strategy and Adjustments. I haven't seen anything since McVay left to suggest Gruden is better than average here. I commend him for adjusting to a run first offense last year for the weak WR Corp, but halftime adjustments have been non-existent. I also blame him for Chris Thompson's injury as he recklessly kept sending him up the gut in garbage time.

 

Hiring the best staff.  Ugh. Retaining Haslett? Joe Barry over Wade Phillips? Wtf? Only Mike Shanahan worked harder to find the worst possible DC candidates. This is his most glaring deficiency.

 

Talent Evaluation. This seems to be the only area where Gruden is above average. Tough to get a definitive read on this since personnel decision making for this team is shrouded in unaccountability.

 

Bottom line: Gruden is the offensive version of Marvin Lewis or Jeff Fisher.

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6 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 He consistently schemes up plays that get guys open. 

I've been hearing this for years, but every week I hear... Garcon disappeared and couldn't get open. Doctson was never open. Our receivers aren't good enough. How can you have it both ways? If Jay is consistently scheming up plays that get guys open how come our receivers are never open?

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37 minutes ago, Burgold said:

I've been hearing this for years, but every week I hear... Garcon disappeared and couldn't get open. Doctson was never open. Our receivers aren't good enough. How can you have it both ways? If Jay is consistently scheming up plays that get guys open how come our receivers are never open?

I've watched every quarterback under Jay miss open receivers, some more than others.  Last year for example, Alex just wouldn't pull the trigger on numerous occasions.  Whether that's lack of familiarity with the offense or just in his nature, probably a bit of both.  Some receivers simply cannot separate even if the called play should create some space.

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I’m not bs’ing.  I’d feel terrible about what’s been accomplished if I was in Jay’s position.  He’s had enough talent to do much better.  I don’t know how much better.  But he never gets the most out of his talent.  But he picks up a paycheck no matter what so I guess that makes it alright.

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On 9/3/2019 at 4:55 PM, Burgold said:

Where do our coaches rank? Why should we trust them? In short, why am I wrong? (You can also post if you agree with me, but I'm looking for reasons to look forward to this season.)

 

 

 

You're absolutely not wrong imho, although (as I was just posting in another thread) I think Jay has gotten screwed in the injury regard. He's had a disastrous roster the past 3 seasons in a row. I'm really hoping we see what he's got with a reasonably healthy offense all season.

 

I'm not crazy about Manusky. The defense looks good on paper but I'm not sold he'll have the schemes to make it shine.

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I think Jay is pretty average.  He's still employed because, IMO, he's a good company man.  He's not going to ruffle any feathers.  I don't think Shanny would have any problem with telling Snyder to **** off.  I think Jay just kinda goes along.  It's a feeling I get, no real evidence for it.

 

But if I am going the conspiracy theory route, I think Jay is also still employed because Snyder wants to prove to everyone that he's not the owner to hire/fire and get a new coach every year or two.  He's going to ride Jay for a full 5-6 years to prove to everyone he's a hands off owner.  He's essentially saying "See?  You all wanted me to hire a coach and not fire him after a year or two, well I've done it.  And the results have been average.  So you guys don't know what to do any more than I do.  And when this contract is over, I'm going back to doing things MY WAY."  I firmly believe that's part of what's going on here.  

 

I don't know what Jay does exceptionally well.  More times than not, the team comes out flat.  More times than not, it's a boring, predictable, run up the middle.  More times than not, it's puzzling clock management.  More times than not, it's conservative playcalling, especially if the team gets down early.  There's nothing that Jay does so great that makes me say..."Yeah, well, he might not be the best clock management guy but at least he does THIS..."

 

Not sure about Manusky.  

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3 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I've watched every quarterback under Jay miss open receivers, some more than others.  Last year for example, Alex just wouldn't pull the trigger on numerous occasions.  Whether that's lack of familiarity with the offense or just in his nature, probably a bit of both.  Some receivers simply cannot separate even if the called play should create some space.

 

 The biggest issue is the WRs not having good speed to get any separation, but a lot of it was actually Smith; he seemed like he was trying his best to protect his starting position by not throwing pics.  He just seemed timid, not wanting to take chances, like he did in KC, with Richardson and Kelce. But I guess its a version of what came first, the chicken or the egg.

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3 hours ago, Chachie said:

He's had a disastrous roster the past 3 seasons in a row.

That’s not true.  The 2016 team was pretty loaded offensively.  The defense lacked talent, but they were also coordinated by the literal worst DC in the history of the league.... who Jay hired.  

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For anybody who cares, this was the NFL..com power ranking from July. It’s only one dudes opinion, so take it for what it’s worth.  

 

Jay was ranked 22 out of 27 candidates.  The 5 “newbies” weren’t ranked.

 

That feels about right for Jay.  He’s a bottom 1/3 of the league coach so far through 5 seasons.  That can change this year, obviously.  

 

Jon Gruden is listed at 15.  Which is probably the biggest issue I have with the list... 

 

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001035886/article/2019-nfl-head-coach-power-rankings-bill-belichick-still-no-1

 

 

 

 

Edited by Voice_of_Reason

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5 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

IMO, he's a good company man.  He's not going to ruffle any feathers.  I don't think Shanny would have any problem with telling Snyder to **** off.  I think Jay just kinda goes along.  It's a feeling I get, no real evidence for it.

 

 

 

Well, it's your job to scoop up that evidence, ain't it ? 😉

Pop your 10 Questions on Jay !

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I put Jay Gruden into the DHall and Josh Norman Redskins category of people who are unfairly the focal point of misplaced frustration/anger. Especially DHall... the most under-appreciated player by the fans in all my years of following the team. 

 

I like Jay. Quite a bit actually. I’d stop short of saying I “love” him or calling him “great,” but I think it’s unfair to rip our FO to shreds and NOT then grade Jay on a curve. 

 

I think we all agree that the top of the FO is a mess. Very poor leadership and either a total neutral or negative in the tone-setting department. Also not good in the consistency department. So for me, a coach that can consistently win between 7-9 games here is probably equivalent to a coach that can consistently win 9-11 games with a “normal” organization. Jay is a good offensive mind and while I don’t think he is a Lombardi-like leader, I do think he has a quality that makes guys like/play hard for him. He is accountable and he treats people well, including the media. He’s never taken the bait and almost always chooses the high road despite the fact that his bosses have often left him twisting in the wind. He has a certain confidence that I like. And honestly, he also seems like a genuinely funny/good guy. I think he is a solid head coach in the NFL. Now, perhaps to succeed in Washington, it is going to take a very, very SPECIAL head coach and not merely a solid/good one. But I respect Jay and I believe he has held this together. The Redskins have not been a joke on the field under his stewardship. They’ve been middling. And middling here is above where the bar was previously set. 

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2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

That’s not true.  The 2016 team was pretty loaded offensively.  The defense lacked talent, but they were also coordinated by the literal worst DC in the history of the league.... who Jay hired.  

 

Kind of crazy that when we get our offense together, the defense is horrible.

Then when we get our defense together, the offense is in shambles.

And the pendulum just keeps swinging back and forth like that.

Probably not a coincidence though. Perhaps just proof of how hard it is to field a complete team in this league. And probably a reflection of what every team goes through - not just us.

It's also an opportunity for the half empty/half full glass ; if the only thing that an observer does is focus on our lowly offense, and ignore our defense, they'll find a way to justify us being a terrible team and going 3-13. But looking at the big picture, this defense should make the overall team at least mediocre.

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17 hours ago, Burgold said:

I've been hearing this for years, but every week I hear... Garcon disappeared and couldn't get open. Doctson was never open. Our receivers aren't good enough. How can you have it both ways? If Jay is consistently scheming up plays that get guys open how come our receivers are never open?

 

Garcon was open plenty.  Doctson struggled with press coverage, he's more of a 50-50 contested catch style receiver.  On the QB threads (nothing to do with Jay) I freezed frame after frame over the years and posted them, and yeah it was shocking how often receivers were open but conservative QB play (especially last year) precluded from the ball being thrown.

 

Jay himself talked about wanting the QBs to play more aggressive.  Cooley from time to time talked about it doing film review.  Andy Beniot too among others.   I think Jay's been wanting a more gun slinger type alas he might have that in Colt and Keenum too bad I don't think either though is very good. 

 

Jay has his weaknesses as a play caller but play design including getting guys open IMO is his strength. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise

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If we were being honest and wanted to rank Gruden and Manusky compared to the other 31 head coaches and defensive coordinators, Gruden would be around the 16-20 mark out of 32, and Manusky would be around 25-32 out of 32.  

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