Owls0325

!!!!0mgz!!!! Trent Williams finally showed up

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1 hour ago, PleaseBlitz said:

I can't believe that people aren't giving Trent the benefit of the doubt when the franchise constantly implodes relationships with its employees through incompetence, contempt or ego.  Brian Lafemina, Scot McCloughan, RGIII, basically every coach except Gibbs.  I'm sure someone that actually gives a **** about this team could provide a much more comprehensive list. 

 

Yes, I'm not saying get his approval.  I'm saying give him a heads up and an explanation, just to show respect.  That's not a hard conversation if you have a shred of humility. 

No kidding. 25 years of total incompetence and still people think these idiots are going to turn it around. As long as Snyder owns the team we will be a running joke.

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1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

You are correct in that none of us know whats going on.  The point is that this is the usual course of business here - drama.  On one side, you have a seven time pro bowler that has been a leader and played hurt a lot for the team and on the other, you have well...the Redskins FO, whose track record speaks for itself. 

 

Yet it never fails, fans find reasons to vilify the player. 

 

Not looking to vilify the player here but this is also the same cat who got himself suspended for repeatedly failing drug tests. For weed no less not PED'S weed. Not to mention during a playoff push. Not super smart behavior from a team leader.

 

That being said Trent has been one of my favorite Redskins since we drafted him. Dude is a badass, I am just not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in this situation. There is probably equal blame to be spread around.

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1 minute ago, evmiii said:

He most likely has several legitimate  issues with this organization (from top to bottom), but money is the only thing that will resolve the issue.  I believe he will be back at left tackle when he is physically able with a little more guaranteed jingle in his pocket.  He has been a great Redskin, often a bright spot in a heaping pile of poo, and I hope he retires a Redskin.

 

I disagree here. Money never is the solution to an unhappy person that has issues other than money. It's a band-aid that makes things seem right. But the issues still exist. So bitterness festers.

 

I think this is pretty much a set deal where the Skins and 71 have to move on. For better or worse.

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*** Pure speculation so please don't accuse me of rumors ***

 

What if over the course of the past few months, Trent has smoked either to calm his nerves over the injury, just for fun, or whatever? What if he's searching for a reason to not report and thus not be tested? 

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2 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

*** Pure speculation so please don't accuse me of rumors ***

 

What if over the course of the past few months, Trent has smoked either to calm his nerves over the injury, just for fun, or whatever? What if he's searching for a reason to not report and thus not be tested? 

Testing doesn't work that way.  He can't skip a test, even if he isn't in camp.  You can't even miss a test if you are out of the country. 

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6 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

*** Pure speculation so please don't accuse me of rumors ***

 

What if over the course of the past few months, Trent has smoked either to calm his nerves over the injury, just for fun, or whatever? What if he's searching for a reason to not report and thus not be tested? 

 

Someone stated that holding out does not exempt you from drug testing.

And it makes sense.

It would be too easy of an escape.

 

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10 minutes ago, Nerm said:

Testing doesn't work that way.  He can't skip a test, even if he isn't in camp.  You can't even miss a test if you are out of the country. 

 

Really? So, he's not in camp and the NFL wants to test him. Do they show up at his house? How do they know where he is?

 

 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, @SkinsGoldPants said:

 

Really? So, he's not in camp and the NFL wants to test him. Do they show up at his house? How do they know where he is?

 

 

 

They've been known to show up at players' houses, yes. It's happened to Redskins' players actually.

Also, even if you're out of the country, you're not exempt.

 

In fact, you're not even safe hiding at your gramma's house...

 

https://larrybrownsports.com/football/kirk-cousins-drug-tested-grandmothers-house/179135

 

They know where you are.

Hide yo kids, Hide yo gramma...

 

 

Edited by Malapropismic Depository
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49 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I disagree here. Money never is the solution to an unhappy person that has issues other than money. It's a band-aid that makes things seem right. But the issues still exist. So bitterness festers.

 

I think this is pretty much a set deal where the Skins and 71 have to move on. For better or worse.

This is spot on.

 

I'll add though, that I think the whole $$$ portion is what fans are clinging to in an effort to make TW a villain here.  When in reality, TW and his advisors are more than aware that while he has leverage - he doesn't hold all the cards.  It makes sense to me that they would ask for more guarantees in this scenario as a band aid.  Basically, "I'll show up, shut up and play" if you guarantee the rest of my contract, because I don't feel comfortable laying it on the line without guaranteed money.  Considering he doesn't trust the training staff nor Bruce not to cut him should he get injured.

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I'm having a hard time reconciling two assumed points being tossed around in this debate:

 

1 - That Trent and other Skins players have had issues with the medical staff and have been griping about their incompetence for years.

 

2 - That Trent trusted that same medical staff's opinion that the thing on his head wasn't serious, even though they also said he should get a 2nd opinion.

 

 

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1 hour ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

*** Pure speculation so please don't accuse me of rumors ***

 

What if over the course of the past few months, Trent has smoked either to calm his nerves over the injury, just for fun, or whatever? What if he's searching for a reason to not report and thus not be tested? 

 

Or what if Bruce Allen keeps sending him D pics and he's finally sick of it?

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3 hours ago, goskins10 said:

They hold all the leverage other than him playing. And sorry, but even a pro-bowler can be replaced as is being demonstrated.

How does a hold-out affect our cap?  I think his salary will still be counted against the cap but he won’t be receiving any pay. If that’s the case, between Trent Williams and Alex Smith, thats nearly $30 million of cap for just two players who won’t play. The Redskins management needs to resolve this.

 

On the other hand, I’m hearing not-negative things about Geron Christian’s play. If Penn can be the stop-gap for 2019 and Christian can grow into the starting roll sooner than later, then the winner in this battle would be the Redskins as next year, we can have a windfall of recuperated cap and not have to expend a 1st on a LT. 

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the more comes out, the more i am placing blame on him. If all is to be believed from the last couple of days, the team did tell him to get a second opinion even if they did not think it was serious.
If he is indeed that threatened and pissy about drafting Geron Christian.. man what a disappointment. 
What does he expect? His contract is up in a couple years, his career is winding down, they make a move to draft a player that was known as a project player from the outset.. rookie contracts give teams 4 years to develop a guy like him while Trent plays. 
ASIDE from worrying over what they drafted him for, Nsehke is due for a contract a year later, and that hole also needs to be filled.
The team could have communicated with Trent better as to Christian's potential role, but good grief man, grow up. Recognize the career you're in, recognize how long the typical career is, realize you're coming up on it, realize this is the nature of the damn business and quit acting like a little hurt puppy.
If it is true that the team had no idea until JUNE,, well damn man, again GROW UP. Step up and talk to somebody.
Unless it's all about money... then by all means, springing the trap with a little warning as possible is a benefit.

So what i have is a situation that is being bandied about as "about" this and that.. but every actual move made looks to me for all the world like it's about money.
What should i believe? The obvious, or the ridiculous?
As it is, the ridiculous is gaining ground.

I may be forced to admit that yes, Trent IS that immature and stupid.

 

~Bang

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Bottom line - TW doesn't want to be here.  Does this team need a player who doesn't want to be here?  TW was indeed one of the teams premier players but as has been discussed he hasn't played 16 games since 2013.  He was still being paid handsomely (reported to be the 6th highest paid tackle at this point years after his last contract which made him the highest paid tackle).

 

The team supported him when he was suspended TWICE.  The team paid him WELL.  The team Docs told him to get a second opinion on the cyst/tumor.  He doesn't want to be here so only thing to do is move on.  No way he should get a new contract or pay raise with two years left in my opinion.   Make a trade, move on and get younger.

 

I still think this is mostly about money.  TW while possibly upset with the team docs is using the medical thing as an excuse to avoid being ripped by fans/media etc.  Bruce said he spoke to TW and knew the truth... that tells me Bruce knows its about money.  Not a Bruce fan but the team can't cave to players with two years left on their contract who have been paid WELL.  Just my opinion.  Make a trade, move on and get younger.  Good luck to Trent.  Maybe he goes to a winner and manages to play 8 games before going on IR.

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2 hours ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

This is the best post I've read on this...

 

We don't have to believe that one side is entirely correct while the other is entirely incorrect here. 

 

Quoting for emphasis. 

 

It it brings out the cravers of dysfunction in droves. And my favorite part about it is they continually emphasize there’s not really enough information to make a determination of who’s at fault yet in the same breath make it known that it MUST be something organizationally related. 

 

I agree there’s too much we don’t know, but I’d honestly bet it’s more a culmination of losing and putting his body on the line and the realization he’s getting older and has no guarantees left. It’s well within his right and I have no ill will toward a player trying to leverage himself into a better financial situation, especially since he HAS absolutely put his body on the line for this franchise. But doesn’t mean I’m going to take it as an opportunity to poop all over the organization either. 

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2 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

 

Quoting for emphasis. 

 

It it brings out the cravers of dysfunction in droves. And my favorite part about it is they continually emphasize there’s not really enough information to make a determination of who’s at fault yet in the same breath make it known that it MUST be something organizationally related. 

 

I agree there’s too much we don’t know, but I’d honestly bet it’s more a culmination of losing and putting his body on the line and the realization he’s getting older and has no guarantees left. It’s well within his right and I have no ill will toward a player trying to leverage himself into a better financial situation, especially since he HAS absolutely put his body on the line for this franchise. But doesn’t mean I’m going to take it as an opportunity to poop all over the organization either. 

 

That's my take too. And that's where I think Williams looks the worst...if he wants out for those reasons, it is a bad look to embellish a medical issue just to get this way. 

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Smoot just now on 980, saying of the people/players he's talked to...

 

Players have serious issues with the training/medical staff and have for a long time.  

 

A lot of players just don't like Bruce Allen.

 

Obviously, it's Smoot and he said a lot more than that, but that's the summary.  But something else he said that I think a lot of folks here fail to recognize...

 

"Sometimes we lose appreciation for what we're used to"

 

That Trent has single handedly been rendering defensive ends obsolete for so long, that folks tend to forget just how hard it is to do that, and even moreso...how hard it is to replace.

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4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

  

 

Regardless, this team has to lead the league in drama.  Somehow stuff keeps happening.  And it goes back a long way.  D. McNabb, AH, Cravens, just different things it seems almost every year. Why?  I am not sure.   But Trent has ironically being one of the ones continually propped up as a key leader-culture setter. 

 

Full disclosure, I have no real numbers or spectrum, but I’d say the Patriots lead the league in drama over last 15 years. 

 

Spygate

deflategate

Milloy

Murder

Brady vs Bill

Jimmy G 

Brady Trainer/Company

Gronk traded, then threatens retirement 

KRAFT soliciting sex

 

The Patriots literally have gone through murder, cheating, and sex scandals lol. 

 

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12 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

It it brings out the cravers of dysfunction in droves. And my favorite part about it is they continually emphasize there’s not really enough information to make a determination of who’s at fault yet in the same breath make it known that it MUST be something organizationally related. 

 

I agree there’s too much we don’t know, but I’d honestly bet it’s more a culmination of losing and putting his body on the line and the realization he’s getting older and has no guarantees left. It’s well within his right and I have no ill will toward a player trying to leverage himself into a better financial situation, especially since he HAS absolutely put his body on the line for this franchise. But doesn’t mean I’m going to take it as an opportunity to poop all over the organization either. 

Not that being a hypocrite is anything new for you, but isn't it ironic that you say that there is not really enough information to make a determination, yet - you have to throw your 2 cents in about what you think is going on, when you know just as much as the people you point fingers at.

 

Cravers of dysfunction....That's a new one.  But for anyone who actually craves dysfunction, the Washington Redskins are the Golden Corral.  

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2 hours ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

The guy doesn't want to play for a broken franchise that has shown that they don't care about him, their best player for the past decade.  I, frankly, don't blame him.  If the team can't or won't look out for him, he should look out for himself.  I feel bad for the guy that he's had to deal with the teams never ending bull**** for his whole career and gone out and done his job.  

 

I'll just point out that fans are fans and not professional football people that should know better.  Nobody on this board, that I'm aware of, is getting paid millions of dollars per year to do a job that very much includes managing these relationships. 

So paying someone 15 million dollars says they don’t care for him. Well if that’s the way it works I want my employer to not care for me .

 

And I have a pretty good idea what they are dealing with I manage a retail establishment with over 100 employees. I have to deal with everything from some one not liking the shifts they are scheduled to medical and family issues.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Full disclosure, I have no real numbers or spectrum, but I’d say the Patriots lead the league in drama over last 15 years. 

 

Spygate

deflategate

Milloy

Murder

Brady vs Bill

Jimmy G 

Brady Trainer/Company

Gronk traded, then threatens retirement 

KRAFT soliciting sex

 

The Patriots literally have gone through murder, cheating, and sex scandals lol. 

 

Winning... it cures all. 

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2 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

That Trent has single handedly been rendering defensive ends obsolete for so long, that folks tend to forget just how hard it is to do that, and even moreso...how hard it is to replace.

 

That's a fair point to be sure. The flip side of that is that we sometimes do overvalue our own players. I've heard a lot of fans refer to Trent as a top-5 tackle or a future HOFer. The truth is that last year he was the 24th rated tackle, per PFF. Still very good, but not exactly irreplaceable. 

 

 

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39 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

I'm having a hard time reconciling two assumed points being tossed around in this debate:

 

1 - That Trent and other Skins players have had issues with the medical staff and have been griping about their incompetence for years.

 

2 - That Trent trusted that same medical staff's opinion that the thing on his head wasn't serious, even though they also said he should get a 2nd opinion.

 

 

 

I think it's impossible to know until Trent speaks.   I try to look for what does every narrative (or close enough to it) have in common -- because the common denominator is often the part of the story that every source agrees on.  The common denominator here seems to be that Trent isn't ONLY upset about this specific health scare.   But instead this is the kicker among a series of things that has bothered him.  If so, if we focus purely on this incident and why would Trent go nuts purely about this -- we might be way off track.

 

To tackle the 2 points you mention.  If those 2 points are true:   your feelings about trusting someone can be an open ended thing where you have a strong leaning until you hit a breaking point.  I got people I don't trust where I've had a running score where I've given them leeway albeit with some skepticism until I hit a breaking point.  So maybe he was wary about their opinion but wasn't at a breaking point until this. Or maybe he told teammates about it and they then shared their own experiences with the staff.  Or whatever. 

 

The 2nd point you listed is from Sheehan's podcast.  Listening to that same podcast, he said that the training staff told Trent both that it isn't anything to worry about and at some point they said he should get a 2nd opinion.  I don't recall him making it clear the timeline as to whether the points were made simultaneously -- unless I missed it?   So maybe its the timeline for how long they took to tell Trent to get a 2nd opinion.

 

People aren't always linear as to their logic especially on medical stuff.  I recall Trent saying years back that he's fearful of having his first surgery.    I know plenty of people who are hospital phobic and heck if a doctor tells them not to worry -- the last thing they'd do is get a 2nd opinion to see if that doctor is wrong because they are comforted by thinking they are fine.  Or whatever. 

 

Trent supposedly is a really smart dude and a good person according to many.  It's believable to me -- the narratives that Trent isn't ONLY upset about this and has other issues.  It's sort of like me explaining to a friend a feud I have with someone else and confine why to just one story on that front -- and my friend says hey that's not so bad, you really don't like the dude based on that alone?  Then I say well that's just the tipping point, here are 8 other things -- then my friend would go hey I got it now.

 

I am not saying we know whether Trent truly has multiple gripes with the organization and what those gripes are.   But since multiple narratives say Trent has multiple gripes and this is just the last straw...ditto there are multiple narratives now that Trent asked to be traded.  I am gathering there is a strong reason to entertain the idea that Trent's beef isn't ALL wrapped up in this health scare.    So figuring out the logic purely on this healthcare scare -- might not explain much as for his beef with the medical staff or whomever considering we keep hearing its the last straw in a series of things as opposed to the main and only feature of the movie. 

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2 minutes ago, tomwvr said:

So paying someone 15 million dollars says they don’t care for him. Well if that’s the way it works I want my employer to not care for me .

 

And I have a pretty good idea what they are dealing with I manage a retail establishment with over 100 employees. I have to deal with everything from some one not liking the shifts they are scheduled to medical and family issues.

The difference is there are millions of people who can do your job and you can be replaced within seconds.  Not so much the same for elite professional athletes.  I say this as someone who has managed people for a long time, dealing with all the same stuff you do.  

 

 

 

1 minute ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

That's a fair point to be sure. The flip side of that is that we sometimes do overvalue our own players. I've heard a lot of fans refer to Trent as a top-5 tackle or a future HOFer. The truth is that last year he was the 24th rated tackle, per PFF. Still very good, but not exactly irreplaceable. 

No doubt, we overvalue our own players.  Ryan Kerrigan being #1.  I love the guy and pretty much everything about him.  Consistently good but never elite at his position.  Trent on the other hand has proven to be elite at his position for the majority of his career, on some sad offensive lines, with some sad offensive units.  I say that not to say Trent's trajectory is going up or the team should break the bank for him, but he has held down one of the most important positions in football, at a high level, for a long time.  Even if we do draft a tackle in the first round next year to replace him, the likelihood that he will be even 80% as good as Trent Williams is slim.

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7 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

No doubt, we overvalue our own players.  Ryan Kerrigan being #1.  I love the guy and pretty much everything about him.  Consistently good but never elite at his position.  Trent on the other hand has proven to be elite at his position for the majority of his career, on some sad offensive lines, with some sad offensive units.  I say that not to say Trent's trajectory is going up or the team should break the bank for him, but he has held down one of the most important positions in football, at a high level, for a long time.  Even if we do draft a tackle in the first round next year to replace him, the likelihood that he will be even 80% as good as Trent Williams is slim.

 

That's a fair assessment. And I'm glad you mentioned that he should be appreciated (which I think he is) while also still not paid for things he's already done. When determining how to compensate a player, you better be looking at what you believe they WILL DO moving forward. 

 

It's funny you brought up Kerrigan...he's a primary reason I would hate to see the team give Williams more money to resolve this issue. Because the second they do, if Kerrigan's agent is any good at all he would be picking up the phone and calling Bruce Allen. 

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