Owls0325

!!!!0mgz!!!! Trent Williams finally showed up

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I'm only guessing, but I would think that "go get it looked at by a real doctor" would be a default answer for any team doctor in any sport. If nothing else to avoid liability. I mean, yeah, team docs need to get players on the field, but I'd bet avoiding a situation were a player can sue the team for malpractice is probably higher priority.

 

I'd say this medical claim is about either getting paid or getting out of Washington, and this was a convenient way to do whichever it is. Like someone said, the doctors can't say anything to defend themselves, per privacy laws, so we're left with vague team statements and whatever TW/his agent say publicly.

 

If it's money, pay him (within reason). I don't care, as it's not coming from my sad little bank account. haha If he wants out, make it happen and move on.

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1 minute ago, tibbidoe said:

I'm only guessing, but I would think that "go get it looked at by a real doctor" would be a default answer for any team doctor in any sport. If nothing else to avoid liability. I mean, yeah, team docs need to get players on the field, but I'd bet avoiding a situation were a player can sue the team for malpractice is probably higher priority.

 

I'd say this medical claim is about either getting paid or getting out of Washington, and this was a convenient way to do whichever it is. Like someone said, the doctors can't say anything to defend themselves, per privacy laws, so we're left with vague team statements and whatever TW/his agent say publicly.

 

If it's money, pay him (within reason). I don't care, as it's not coming from my sad little bank account. haha If he wants out, make it happen and move on.

 

I love this post except for the "pay him" mentality. You can't, in my opinion because it would:

 

  1. Set a bad precedent that popular or good players can pull this crap
  2. Be unwise given how well he's currently being paid and his career arc trajectory

 

 

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7 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I love this post except for the "pay him" mentality. You can't, in my opinion because it would:

 

  1. Set a bad precedent that popular or good players can pull this crap
  2. Be unwise given how well he's currently being paid and his career arc trajectory

 

 

 

Agreed 100%

 

They are stuck also. You can't pay him now unless more money is based 100% on performance because it opens the floodgates for other players under contract who want a bump. 

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4 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

Set a bad precedent that popular or good players can pull this crap 

Well that happens every year from every player on every team...

 

Holdouts from good or supposedly good players happens all the time. Except Trent Williams is one of the best at his position. If not the best.

 

I'm pretty sure Brucey is calling his bluff, thinking he'll report and won't pull a Bell kind of stuff, not playing for a full year.

But considering things, We have way more to lose in a Trent Williams sitting out a full year, than the opposite. He could use time to heal and recover, and likely has enough money to swallow it. The team on the other side is not good on the left side and we have huge question marks at QB...

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Just now, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I love this post except for the "pay him" mentality. You can't, in my opinion because it would:

 

  1. Set a bad precedent that popular or good players can pull this crap
  2. Be unwise given how well he's currently being paid and his career arc trajectory

 

 

 

Fair point, but I think the precedent has been set many times before in all major sports. Certain players are just treated differently in these situations because of what they've accomplished or what they are expected to accomplish in the near future. If nothing else, convert some current contract money to guaranteed money, maybe add a year or two and then the FO gets to say "See? We make it right and take care of our guys."

 

It isn't necessarily fair, but players/teams aren't in normal businesses. If I tried this approach on my job, I'd be gone. But, finding a forklift driver is a little easier than finding a possible HoF left tackle. haha

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1 minute ago, Wildbunny said:

 

 

Holdouts from good or supposedly good players happens all the time. Except Trent Williams is one of the best at his position. If not the best.

 

 

usually it's a guy in his mid-20's who has a better history of health. I'm trying to think of a good comparison for Trent's age/health/ability to stay on the field who has done this before. 

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Posted (edited)

@TD_washingtonredskins

 

So, your implying that we should all conclude that it's Trent's fault? You feel the medical staff handled this 100% correct and Trent is solely to blame? 

 

Every example you bring up makes Trent responsible for the outcome. Let's not forget, when looking at players as assets he's one of the best ones this team has. Should they be giving him the same level of service as you and I talking about my belly or a mechanic talking about a rattle? 

 

He had a tumor on his head. Thank god it was benign. Tumors on heads are not an issue to take lightly. Here's my @TD_washingtonredskins example: 

 

Most valuable client to a dealership that values his business: My car is leaking oil. What's that about? 

Mechanic: That's just the way some cars 'sweat', but it could be worse. Possibly get a second opinion? 

Most valuable client to a dealership that values his business: Might it be serious. 

Mechanic: Nah. You are good.

Edited by Unbias

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Posted (edited)

It's smart of him not to say anything. Talking to the media opens the door for misunderstanding and hurt feelings. Keeping a lid on comments, allows him to come back as if it were just like old times. I don't see it happening, though. He will be traded. Probably for less than we think he is worth.

Edited by Stadium-Armory

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4 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

Well that happens every year from every player on every team...

 

Holdouts from good or supposedly good players happens all the time. Except Trent Williams is one of the best at his position. If not the best.

 

I'm pretty sure Brucey is calling his bluff, thinking he'll report and won't pull a Bell kind of stuff, not playing for a full year.

But considering things, We have way more to lose in a Trent Williams sitting out a full year, than the opposite. He could use time to heal and recover, and likely has enough money to swallow it. The team on the other side is not good on the left side and we have huge question marks at QB...

 

Sure, holdouts happen. But if the Redskins extended Williams or converted his money to guarantees why wouldn't Kerrigan try? Then Thompson? Then any other popular or pretty good player who thinks they have leverage? 

1 minute ago, Unbias said:

@TD_washingtonredskins

 

So, your implying that the response should be it's Trent's fault? You feel the medical staff handled this 100% correct and Trent is solely to blame? 

 

Every example you bring up makes Trent responsible for the outcome. Let's not forget, when looking at players as assets he's one of the best ones this team has. Should they be giving him the same level of service as you and I talking about my belly or a mechanic talking about a rattle? 

 

He had a tumor on his head. Thank god it was benign. Tumors on heads are not an issue to take lightly. Here's my @TD_washingtonredskins example: 

 

Most valuable client to a dealership that values his business: My car is leaking oil. What's that about? 

Mechanic: That's just the way some cars 'sweat', but it could be worse. Possibly get a second opinion? 

Most valuable client to a dealership that values his business: Might it be serious. 

Mechanic: Nah. You are good.

 

What response? There doesn't need to be a response from the team, if that's what you mean. 

 

Solely to blame, no. If they called it a cyst and it wasn't, then they got that part wrong. Also, we don't know how hard they pushed him to get it checked out by a specialist. I'm of the opinion that people can always do more if they truly wanted to. 

 

But Trent Williams is an adult. He was told by people who know more than him that he should have that "cyst" looked at even though they didn't believe it was serious. If Trent Williams was my son or someone I cared about in my life, I'd sure as Hell be lecturing his ass about personal responsibility and accountability. I certainly wouldn't be fanning the flames of playing the victim card. 

 

So, no, it's not solely his fault, but I also don't believe he has a legitimate reason to be angry at the team. 

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5 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

So, no, it's not solely his fault, but I also don't believe he has a legitimate reason to be angry at the team. 

 

As opposed to trying to understanding Trent's frustration and work to find a middle ground you are disregarding it's validity? 

 

giphy.gif

 

 

Bruce, is that you? Are you actually posting on the boards of the team your the GM? 

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In the end, it’s probably not dissimilar from the Cousins strategy.  Play hardball for big money and harness fan resentment to improve your leverage.  Trent is using the “medical staff” stuff like Kirk used the “it’s God’s decision” stuff.

 

Its an effective strategy.

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@Unbias

 

I don't understand. I've formed an opinion based on what's come out to date. I don't know Trent so I don't really see how I can "try to understand" his frustration. Even beyond that, he is allowed to be frustrated (whether it's legitimate or not). But he's now acted on that frustration and is open to any criticism. 

 

What are you really trying to say...that even if he was advised to get a second opinion, didn't follow that advice, and got scared by a comment from a third-party specialist he has a reason to be frustrated with the Redskins? I just don't see it. If that's where he wants to direct his anger or frustration, it's his choice. But it's wrong. 

 

Again, more could come out. We might learn that the Redskins doctors were adamant that he not seek a second opinion. Something like that would ABSOLUTELY change my feeling. 

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1 minute ago, TryTheBeal! said:

In the end, it’s probably not dissimilar from the Cousins strategy.  Play hardball for big money and harness fan resentment to improve your leverage.  Trent is using the “medical staff” stuff like Kirk used the “it’s God’s decision” stuff.

 

Its an effective strategy.

 

From the players perspective any negotiations with the Redskins is an 'effective strategy'.

 

Remember when Bruce came out and talked about offering Cousins the most guaranteed money ever, while including the franchise tag number that is already guaranteed? People immediately knew he was talking out the side of his mouth. 

 

Trent is doing things right. Not show and eventually the Redskins will try to control the narrative, which will lead to them publicly failing and looking bad. 

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4 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

In the end, it’s probably not dissimilar from the Cousins strategy.  Play hardball for big money and harness fan resentment to improve your leverage.  Trent is using the “medical staff” stuff like Kirk used the “it’s God’s decision” stuff.

 

Its an effective strategy.

 

Yep, this feels more and more like an opportunistic play. I'm sure this team isn't fun to play for (regardless of my opinion of this specific situation). So, over 8-10 years through several mediocre-or-worse seasons, Trent probably wanted out or wanted more money to stay. This cyst/tumor scenario presented him with an opportunity to hold the team hostage. If the current reports are accurate, then it seems he needed some embellishment to do so. 

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19 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

Well that happens every year from every player on every team...

 

Holdouts from good or supposedly good players happens all the time. Except Trent Williams is one of the best at his position. If not the best.

 

I'm pretty sure Brucey is calling his bluff, thinking he'll report and won't pull a Bell kind of stuff, not playing for a full year.

But considering things, We have way more to lose in a Trent Williams sitting out a full year, than the opposite. He could use time to heal and recover, and likely has enough money to swallow it. The team on the other side is not good on the left side and we have huge question marks at QB...

 

But...the Skins could theoretically let Trent sit out for 2 seasons as they have his contract through 2020.

 

You really think Trent wants to be completely out of football for 2 years? He'd be coming back into the league being 32 years old with a previous history of injuries, and not having played a single snap in 2 NFL seasons. No way would anyone give him a huge multi-year deal; he'd get offers for 1 year "lease-to-buy" contracts where he'd have to prove that he was still good and could stay healthy. 

 

Not only that but he also wouldn't get paid for 2 years as his last 2 seasons don't have the guaranteed money. The team could continue to fine him as well and eventually take him to court over it and end up taking even more money from him. 

 

He's not in a great position unless he really has invested his money well and doesn't mind being out of football for quite a while. 

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2 minutes ago, Unbias said:

Trent is doing things right. Not show and eventually the Redskins will try to control the narrative, which will lead to them publicly failing and looking bad. 

 

I'm curious how you feel about this...because I don't disagree that what Trent is doing will likely "succeed" in that he'll either be moved to a better team or will get more money. But, do you think he's in the right here while the team is in the wrong? 

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2 minutes ago, Unbias said:

 

From the players perspective any negotiations with the Redskins is an 'effective strategy'.

 

Remember when Bruce came out and talked about offering Cousins the most guaranteed money ever, while including the franchise tag number that is already guaranteed? People immediately knew he was talking out the side of his mouth. 

 

Trent is doing things right. Not show and eventually the Redskins will try to control the narrative, which will lead to them publicly failing and looking bad. 

 

I thought Bruce handled Cousins just fine.

 

Only mistake was offering the 2nd franchise tag...but that’s where our gullible, self-loathing fanbase (you) influenced the process.

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2 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

@Unbias

 

I don't understand. I've formed an opinion based on what's come out to date. I don't know Trent so I don't really see how I can "try to understand" his frustration. Even beyond that, he is allowed to be frustrated (whether it's legitimate or not). But he's now acted on that frustration and is open to any criticism. 

 

What are you really trying to say...that even if he was advised to get a second opinion, didn't follow that advice, and got scared by a comment from a third-party specialist he has a reason to be frustrated with the Redskins? I just don't see it. If that's where he wants to direct his anger or frustration, it's his choice. But it's wrong. 

 

Again, more could come out. We might learn that the Redskins doctors were adamant that he not seek a second opinion. Something like that would ABSOLUTELY change my feeling. 

 

He did get a second opinion. That would be the group that looked deeper and immediately removed the tumor. The real gap is the sense of urgency between the medical staff and the end surgeons. 

 

Trent could also have just googled how serious a head tumor is. That would have fueled his frustration around the cyst misdiagnosis. 

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Williams and the team remain locked in a staring contest that stretches back to the spring, when Williams missed minicamp over what Coach Jay Gruden called Williams’s frustration with the way the team’s medical staff handled a growth on his head that turned into a health scare. Two people with knowledge of Williams’s thinking say that while the health issue was a factor (along with broader concerns with the team’s medical staff), it was merely one of several things that led him to the point of wanting to either be traded or receive a new contract that would provide better financial security. Williams has two years remaining on his five-year, $66 million deal, but in the final year, his base salary isn’t guaranteed.

[Trent Williams’s relationship with Redskins is fractured, and there’s no going back]

According to a person with knowledge of the Redskins’ thinking, Williams asked the team to be traded on June 1. Washington officials decided that a trade would not be practical and turned the request down. The person said Williams then asked for more money, which the team also declined, and the two sides have remained in a standoff since.

The team’s strategy, this person said, is to let the fines add up and force Williams to return, at which point the team would welcome him back.

A report in The Athletic on Wednesday said Washington is looking to trade Williams, but a person with knowledge of the Redskins’ decision-making said that the team doesn’t want to trade Williams now and is not actively shopping him to other teams.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/08/01/trent-williams-wants-out-redskins-seem-hopeful-that-fines-will-force-him-return/?utm_term=.715e6d126f01

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10 minutes ago, Unbias said:

@TD_washingtonredskins

 

So, your implying that we should all conclude that it's Trent's fault? You feel the medical staff handled this 100% correct and Trent is solely to blame? 

 

Every example you bring up makes Trent responsible for the outcome. Let's not forget, when looking at players as assets he's one of the best ones this team has. Should they be giving him the same level of service as you and I talking about my belly or a mechanic talking about a rattle? 

 

He had a tumor on his head. Thank god it was benign. Tumors on heads are not an issue to take lightly. Here's my @TD_washingtonredskins example: 

 

Most valuable client to a dealership that values his business: My car is leaking oil. What's that about? 

Mechanic: That's just the way some cars 'sweat', but it could be worse. Possibly get a second opinion? 

Most valuable client to a dealership that values his business: Might it be serious. 

Mechanic: Nah. You are good.

 

If the team doctors/trainers told him to get a second opinion, then it is 100% on TW as to what he does with that advice.  It does not matter if the trainer or team doctor told him they did not think it was serious because they are not specialists and they told him to get a second opinion.  

 

Him putting it off is 100% on him, it really is that simple.  As medical professionals they ethically should give the same level of service to every player, you, me, the homeless guy standing outside of the stadium, my 89 yo grandmother, etc.  The whole point of this is, they are not medically trained to in dermatology or oncology to make an educated guess if it is serious or not, much less a diagnosis of any growth/cyst that appears on anybody (athlete or regular Joe).  

 

And we don't know the exact details in regards to the actual conversation that took place between him and the medical staff.  Sometimes in conversation, some of what was said is lost in translation when recalling said conversation at a later time.  Sometimes people only hear what they want to hear or don't pay attention to everything and think they heard something else.

 

Tumors anywhere are nothing to be taken lightly, which is why Trent should have put on his big boy pants and got the 2nd opinion (as recommended by the team medical staff) immediately instead of waiting for months.  

 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

But...the Skins could theoretically let Trent sit out for 2 seasons as they have his contract through 2020.

 

You really think Trent wants to be completely out of football for 2 years?

 

That was Hoffman's take speaking on it last night.  That is, since Trent is under contract for 2 years the team has the leverage if Trent wants to get paid.

Edited by Skinsinparadise

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6 minutes ago, Unbias said:

 

He did get a second opinion. That would be the group that looked deeper and immediately removed the tumor. The real gap is the sense of urgency between the medical staff and the end surgeons. 

 

Trent could also have just googled how serious a head tumor is. That would have fueled his frustration around the cyst misdiagnosis. 

 

So what's your answer...if that chain of events is what occurred, where is the overwhelming frustration that Trent Williams should have with the Washington Redskins?

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Posted (edited)

All of this boils down to Trent not wanting to play for the Skins anymore. 

 

Can you honestly blame him? He's been here a decade. Would be weird if it didn't want to see what it was like to play for at least as competent organization -- or maybe even a contender.

 

That said, he has a contract. 

 

I tend to agree with Sheehan on this. Skins should see what they can get in a trade. Maybe some stud LT gets hurt during preseason and a team offers a first.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Hooper

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1 minute ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I'm curious how you feel about this...because I don't disagree that what Trent is doing will likely "succeed" in that he'll either be moved to a better team or will get more money. But, do you think he's in the right here while the team is in the wrong? 

 

Here's my thought process: 

 

- Trent, while being highly paid, has been a good soldier to the team. No drama. 

- Even through this event Trent hasn't went public. We are hearing through other people what happened. 

- Trent feels there was a misdiagnosis that could have been serious to his health. Any trust he had with this medical staff has been permanently fractured. 

- Trent is valuable enough and is at a point in his career where he can dig in on certain issues. Player safety would be a valid reason. 

- Bruce knew the truth about Trent's concerns since early June and hasn't done enough to appease him.  

- Trent's agent, who is just doing his job, will be letting him know this misdiagnosis can ultimately have him move to a contender and maximize his earning potential. 

 

For me the team hurt themselves 3 times: 

1 - The initial misdiagnosis - When it has a slight chance of being a tumor on the head don't call it a cyst. Default to the safest option for your client. 

2 - Post surgery - Team would have known about the surgery. What did they do immediately after to check on the player. 

3 - Bruce's response - What exactly did he do? It seems like he heard Trent's side and did nothing. If that's the case he didn't property measure the blow back of doing nothing. 

 

Now we appear to be reacting by signing FAs and threatening to impose fines.

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I don't question Trent has an issue over his medical treatment. That seems fairly clear.

 

But I'm not buying the notion it has nothing to do with money. He thinks we're letting his contract run down with a view to moving on in a couple of years. Getting out now gives him the chance to broker a final contract elsewhere, nice little 4 year 50/60mil deal, and that would likely come from a stronger contender than us in the near term.

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