Owls0325

!!!!0mgz!!!! Trent Williams finally showed up

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He's worth a 1st rounder plus.... spare me the injury crap. He's a top-5 LT in this league, a premier position. They don't grow on trees.

 

if we don't get the asking price, there's no harm in keeping him at home. 

 

Sam Bradford received higher contracts and multiple first rounders from many teams.... and i'm still not sure he ever actually made it through 1 game, much less a full season. And he was never actually any good. 

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1 minute ago, Skintime said:

I'm curious what decisions you think to FO has made in the past 25 years? I've been a loyal fan since the '60s and the FO has done everything in their power to make sure I don't watch games anymore.

I've been a fan since 68. That's allot of FO's The Cerrato was a cluster F*ck in that he paid HIGH $$ for washed up talent. Everyone can agree on that. Shanahan lived and died by those mistakes and his attempt to mitigate the cap with Fat Boy. Bruce has managed the Cap well..we had a team working, then the KC debacle caused a restart. *I* don't blame Bruce for that per se (I blame him for not recognizing KC's game and trading him prior to the 2017 Draft or at LEAST 2018 Draft..I was screaming for that. Yes..he let some player go like Garcon and Desean for Cap reasons...but thats a Business decision too.

 

The problem the skins have is that they don't recognize talent well. Draft or FA..but that has changed to as evidenced by the last 2 drafts and NOT playing in the Aged FA game (except for Alex's forced hand).

 

*I* think the Skins have turned the corner. I know I am in the minority but I was in the minority about KC too in 2017 and I was right .

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3 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

This is one of the more delusional things Ive heard on here.  Thats pretty impressive!

 

Just curious what part of that seems delusional? I didn't read that as a "just trust Bruce, guys" post as much as a "you can't run a business by being strong-armed into decisions by your personnel" post. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, RandyHolt said:

 

Oh I suspect Penn was dealing directly with Jay and vice versa, likely without Bruce's knowledge. 

 

Otherwise your post stands. Jay knows his place. One of which is being the PR punching bag sent up to the podium to explain the moves of the front office.

 

Honestly it's one of Jay largest assets when looking how he fits this team. How many other coaches would accept no player control and never display frustration towards the team? It's why we are such a tough spot to get a top end coach. 

Edited by Unbias
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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Unbias said:

 

Honestly it's one of Jay largest assets when looking how he fits this team. How many other coaches would accept no player control and never display frustration towards the team? It's why we are such a tough spot to get a top end coach. 

 

You nailed it. I kind of came to my senses a little bit.  I have been down on Jay over the past 3 years, his offense has not been dynamic/unpredictable enough for my liking, after getting a tease at the end of 2015 when Kirk and Jordan Reed especially just exploded with a new approach to play calling.

 

Came to my senses... realizing the grass isn't always greener, if Jay leaves. Few can coach here effectively, and likely even fewer are even willing to come here. We may very find ourselves Zorn Dogged again; bring in a guy for an assistant position and give him the head coaching job. How telling was it, that he butchered our team colors in his first presser. I won't let down the maroon and black, and yellow?  Zorn was basically proof no one wanted to coach here. An unemployed Shanahan.... 

 

I think our next coach will be OCKOC- I call it chasing McVay. If he bolts, or if we need an interim, it will be Callahan.

Edited by RandyHolt

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Posted (edited)

Anyone who thinks Trent isn't worth a 1st rounder needs to look at the OTs drafted in the first round the last 2 years.Team are desperately trying to find a starting caliber OT and gamble on guys with huge question marks with first round picks.Trent is one of the best O-lineman of his generation without a doubt.He has several quality years left and is clearly worth a 

1st.

Edited by Ghedrick
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11 minutes ago, Unbias said:

 

Honestly it's one of Jay largest assets when looking how he fits this team. How many other coaches would accept no player control and never display frustration towards the team? It's why we are such a tough spot to get a top end coach. 

 

Not sure there’s 5 coaches in the league that have power to decide who’s on or off team. 

 

Jays situation is the norm. 

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30 minutes ago, JaxJoe said:

Back to to the medical staff. The trainer(s) who told him that should’ve,  and by law, referred the growth to the team doctor. Neither the trainer nor the team doctor (assumably a general practitioner) is qualified to diagnose a growth and should’ve immediately, and by law, referred to a dermatologist who then would’ve taken a biopsy to determine possible cancer but would’ve also determined if the tumor was near a critical blood vessel in the brain. I think that, even with a benign tumor, there was likely a bleed-out risk and the trainers and possibly the team doctor waived it off. 

 

I will speculate that this life-threatening risk was made aware to Trent in the off season by a specialist doctor and that is what galvanized TW. I cannot speculate who and when Redskin’s management was made aware of this issue but a lack of action is understandingly infuriating. 

 

Personally, I think there is just cause into firing at least the trainer in question and at a minimum, a grievance should be filed with Virginia. If the team doctor was made aware by the trainer, he too could be fired for cause. Or, at a minimum, the whole staff and the procedures be investigated by the board of health. My wife is a doctor. These things happen all the time at her hospital. If a grievance hasn’t been filed, then Trent is actually being the nice guy in this situation. 

 

From an executive point of view, I would at least sack the trainer(s) in question and possibly the team doctor not simply to appease Trent Williams, but for a legitimate reason of healthcare violations. The team is lucky that Virginia hasn’t picked this up. I also think there might be a CBA grievance. 

 

My two cents. 

 

If this has been pointed out already, forgive me (I'm not going back through all the pages to find out).  I'd imagine we will only get one side of the story, Trent's side on this issue and never the team's (specifically trainers/team doctors).  Reason being, HIPAA. 

 

I don't know 100%, but I speculate that every NFL players either signs a waiver or maybe it's language in their contracts waiving their HIPAA rights for any/all football related injuries, etc.  Otherwise, anytime the team/league released that information to the public regarding exams/x-rays/procedures/surgeries/etc., it would be a violation. 

 

With that said, this was a non-football related medical issue, which would result in a HIPAA violation if anyone on the training/medical staff (I'd imagine FO too) were to share any information about his condition and what was said or done about it (or not done).  Trent can share anything he wants, but none of the medical staff on the Redskins can.  Which leaves us with one side of the story and the team not being able to defend themselves.  That makes the most sense to me, given Bruce's response by basically saying, he talked to Trent and knows whats going on without specifically talking about any details.

 

For all we know, the trainer also told him that if he was worried/concerned about the growth that much he needed to talk to the team doctor or find a specialist and get it checked out.  It's also possible that the team doctor told him he needed to seek out a specialist.  All of that could have been said to him in addition to whomever telling him they didn't think it was anything to be worried about and putting it off until the off-season.

 

But again, we will most likely never know unless there is a leak to the press.  And as a player, the teams/league doesn't provide health insurance for players, they have the responsibility of obtaining their own coverage for them and their families.  With his growth being non-football related, he should know that he bears the majority of the responsibility of finding a specialist and getting it checked out.  

 

If there is any proven negligence on anyone on the medical/training staff, then sure, fire them.  But asking that the whole medical/training staff be fired and replaced or you're holding out and not playing again is asking too much, imo.  Regardless of how ****ty they might be, the team can't do that during training camp and Trent knows that too.  

 

At this point, I'd put him on the trade block and see what offers they can get for him.  If it's nothing but low-ball offers, let him hold out and not play.  If he misses the entire season, so be it.  And if he threatens again in 2020/21, repeat the process.  I love the guy as a player and if it went down like he said it did (though I always believe there are two sides to a story), then I get his frustration.  But his demand is ridiculous at this point, that's something he should have said back in Feb./March or right after it happened.

 

 

 

 

 

43 minutes ago, Gellnasty said:

I tried to give the Redskins the benefit of the doubt on this... There is no coming back Trent is gone and I am actually mad about it. Trent is one of the guys who should be a Redskin for life and the Redskins botched that. I am so over the front office, thought after the draft there might be better days... Nope! 

 

We have no idea if the team botched anything.  For all we know they told him to seek out a specialist to get it checked out.  But we most likely will never know the training/medical staff's side of the story due to a little thing called HIPAA.  

 

And how is this one on the front office?  For not firing and replacing the entire medical/training staff during training camp?  Give me a break.............

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13 minutes ago, Ghedrick said:

Anyone who thinks Trent isn't worth a 1st rounder needs to look at the OTs drafted in the first round the last 2 years.Team are desperately trying to find a starting caliber OT and gamble on guys with huge question marks with first round picks.Trent is one of the best O-lineman of his generation without a doubt.He has several quality years left and is clearly worth a 

1st.

 

And anyone who thinks a team is going to start throwing first round picks to the Redskins for TW is dreaming, imo.  Several quality years left?  He's played 9 seasons and missed 13 games the last three seasons.  Age is not on his side, past injuries have put wear and tear on his body, along with playing a position that requires you to weigh over 300lbs.  

 

Other teams know that the Redskins have more to lose than they do in this situation.  A disgruntled pro-bowl tackle making a ridiculous demand of not playing unless they fire and replace the training/medical staff during training camp.  Sure, there is a chance a team gets desperate if their starting LT goes down in camp/pre-season and they are a potential contender (or supposed to be).  But until that happens, if that  happens, I'd imagine they would only get low ball offers.

 

And if it doesn't happen, the offers will be even worse in the next off-season.  I'm not saying trade him for what you can get, just that I don't think we end up getting a 1st round pick for him.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, CTskin said:

SIP- that Brewer article is the only way I see this situation. I was mocking up our depth chart last week and just removed TW after we signed Penn. The situation is crystal clear, but I think many just don't want to believe it. TW and Penn are good friends and Penn was clear that he wanted to come here to play LT... there's not much reading between the lines necessary. Where there's smoke there's fire with trade rumors and I'm sure the FO is fielding calls. The good thing is that all reports are saying that we have a very high asking price. The issue is that the NFL knows TW has us by the balls and if he holds out, it just hurts us. If we can get a 2nd rounder, I'll take it. I love TW, hate that it's going to end this way, but he's no spring chicken, and his play and health have been on the decline... **** this drama, let's get everyone's head on straight going into the season, pull the trigger on the trade.

 

There seems clear evidence that Trent is upset at the medical staff so I am not challenging the point.   But there seems to be enough noise that they might be able to resolve this.  To me the one thing where there is plenty of grey area is whether he's insisting on being traded or not.    Even in Brewer's article the line he uses is he "prefers" to be traded.  

 

Most of the local beat guys think this will ultimately be resolved -- some national types don't think it will be.  I typically bet on the local beat guys over the national ones.  But yeah I am not challenging the notion that Trent is upset and some of that or maybe all is clearly about the medical staff.    I am challenging that we know whether he's insisting on being traded and a trade is inevitable.  It's certainly possible that it's the case.  But there is plenty of noise too that this will work itself out.   I like Brewer's columns but I trust Mike Jones more as a source than I do him.   

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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2 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

And anyone who thinks a team is going to start throwing first round picks to the Redskins for TW is dreaming, imo.

I don’t think it’s that far fetched to believe TW is worth a 1st rounder. I agree that his age and his injury history no doubt lowers his value. But when Trent plays, he renders obsolete the leagues best pass rushers: Aaron Donald, Von Miller, Khalil Mack, etc. I don’t think anyone would argue that these guys are worth anything lower than a first. So, I wouldn’t at all be surprised to see a team spend a 1st on TW in a division that has to play those guys twice a year and might also be the teams that are holding you back from winning your division. Another factor in TW’s value is whether or not that particular team has the Cap much less the draft capital to pull off the trade. So, I agree that the Redskins would be fortunate to get a first, but the market might only be able to bear a 2nd and some change. 

 

I hope we can still retain Trent. I think the situation is fixable. Penn seemed to have implied that there’s a possibility TW returns when he commented about his “personal” conversation he had with Trent and that he’d play swing if Trent returned. What Trent’s conditions are isn’t known to me, though. 

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

And anyone who thinks a team is going to start throwing first round picks to the Redskins for TW is dreaming, imo.  Several quality years left?  He's played 9 seasons and missed 13 games the last three seasons.  Age is not on his side, past injuries have put wear and tear on his body, along with playing a position that requires you to weigh over 300lbs.  

 

Other teams know that the Redskins have more to lose than they do in this situation.  A disgruntled pro-bowl tackle making a ridiculous demand of not playing unless they fire and replace the training/medical staff during training camp.  Sure, there is a chance a team gets desperate if their starting LT goes down in camp/pre-season and they are a potential contender (or supposed to be).  But until that happens, if that  happens, I'd imagine they would only get low ball offers.

 

And if it doesn't happen, the offers will be even worse in the next off-season.  I'm not saying trade him for what you can get, just that I don't think we end up getting a 1st round pick for him.

Tell me who you would want over the next three to  five years Trent or

one of these guys Kolton Miller, Isaiah Wynn,Mcginchey, Mcgary,Jonah Williams and Tytus Howard.Trent is worth a 1st hands down.

Edited by Ghedrick
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Posted (edited)

Per Russell the Skins have had 40 (front office?) employees quit presumed after the season. I am not sure what normal turnover rates are in the entertainment industry, nor do I know the total employee count, but if its being reported it must be a mass exodus.   What the hell is making everyone quit, and making all the incompetents stick around?

 

I have heard a few say why didn't Trent get a 2nd opinion. I read somewhere, that he did. Even if HE didn't, the team doctors should have forced him to. Its very telling that Trent refuses to let them work on him this season. Just like you or I wouldn't want to go back to an incompetent doctor we had. 

Edited by RandyHolt

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I didn't think I'd find my opinion changing on this, but if the trade value we could net is significant I think I favour moving Trent on.

 

If our true intention is to just let him play his final 2 years out without an extension, then a trade now may end up being a decent outcome. If we could snag a tackle and WR high in the 2020 draft then we'd be well set on offense in terms of an across the board core set of young talented players/prospects.

 

 

3 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

If Antonio Brown could only nab a 3rd and a 5th I’d be shocked if we get a 1st.

 

Probably some middle ground here. I'd wager Trent is very highly regarded around the league for more than just his on field performances. 

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I think one aspect to consider is what the 'Skins were planning to do with Trent regardless of this hold out.  Let's say all was good Trent was in training camp and all that.....he has two years left, and at the end of that is likely looking for one last big pay day....at the age of 33?   So there is a good chance that trading Trent was something that was going to have to be considered anyway (although probably not until next offseason).   

 

So if the front office likely wasn't going to look to extend him with a big contract in the first place, then trading him one season ahead of when you likely were going to have to isn't the end of the world.   Now the focus needs to be getting some kind of value for him.  

 

Wow that was some major 'Skins PR front office spin, wasn't it?

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7 minutes ago, JaxJoe said:

I don’t think it’s that far fetched to believe TW is worth a 1st rounder. I agree that his age and his injury history no doubt lowers his value. But when Trent plays, he renders obsolete the leagues best pass rushers: Aaron Donald, Von Miller, Khalil Mack, etc. I don’t think anyone would argue that these guys are worth anything lower than a first. So, I wouldn’t at all be surprised to see a team spend a 1st on TW in a division that has to play those guys twice a year and might also be the teams that are holding you back from winning your division. Another factor in TW’s value is whether or not that particular team has the Cap much less the draft capital to pull off the trade. So, I agree that the Redskins would be fortunate to get a first, but the market might only be able to bear a 2nd and some change. 

 

I hope we can still retain Trent. I think the situation is fixable. Penn seemed to have implied that there’s a possibility TW returns when he commented about his “personal” conversation he had with Trent and that he’d play swing if Trent returned. What Trent’s conditions are isn’t known to me, though. 

 

Don't confuse "worth" with "actual offer".  In the current status of his situation, I do not believe teams are going to be knocking on Bruce's door or blowing up his phone offering a 1st round pick for TW.  

 

I don't think we will get any offers right now that the team would pull the trigger on.  That could change over the next 4-5 weeks if a team loses their starting LT to injury in camp/pre-season.  But as you mentioned, salary cap could play a big part on them trading for TW, depending on the team and their cap situation.  

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4 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Per Russell the Skins have had 40 (front office?) employees quit presumed after the season. I am not sure what normal turnover rates are in the entertainment industry, nor do I know the total employee count, but if its being reported it must be a mass exodus.   What the hell is making everyone quit, and making all the incompetents stick around?

 

I have heard a few say why didn't Trent get a 2nd opinion. I read somewhere, that he did. Even if HE didn't, the team doctors should have forced him to. Its very telling that Trent refuses to let them work on him this season. Just like you or I wouldn't want to go back to an incompetent doctor we had. 

 

Let me preface this with from the beginning I said I believed there was a medical issue involved and that i believe Trent likely has a solid compliant. But in fairness there are still a lot of unknowns. 

 

However, regardless of what actually happened, it's his body so he owns what he does with it. In direct response to the bolded, they literally cannot do that nor should they. They can encourage him to seek a second opinion just like they can entourage him not to. But ultimately the decision to seek a second opinion is 100% Trent's, If he didn't; that is totally on him and his advisers. 

 

And if he had concerns and did not seek a second, then shame on him. And I don't care what they told him. Don't get me wrong, it would be hideous on the teams part if they tried to coerce him into not seeking a 2nd or even 3rd opinion. They own that. But ultimately it's his body, his decision. And the team has to pay for it if he decides to and they do NOT get to tell him who to see. 

 

I do agree I would not want anyone touching me if they screwed up already. You wouldn't take your car back to a mechanic who kept saying he fixed it only to have the car break down again for basically the same thing. You find another mechanic. Definitely would not go to the same doctor. 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Ghedrick said:

Tell me who you would want over the next three to  five years Trent or

one of these guys Kolton Miller, Isaiah Wynn,Mcginchey, Mcgary,Jonah Williams and Tytus Howard.Trent is worth a 1st hands down.

 

Again, y'all keep using the term "worth".  I never said he wasn't "worth" a first round pick, only I don't see teams offering a first round pick at this point in his holdout.  The only team that has anything to lose out of this is the Redskins and all the other 31 teams know that.  Could that change over the next 4-5 weeks?  Absolutely.  

 

But I'd imagine that unless a team lost their starting LT over the next 4-5 weeks, we are not going to have teams offering up a first round pick for TW anytime soon.  And then there are a lot more factors that come into play depending on who the team is (salary cap, etc.).  

 

Those guys you mention mean nothing to this situation with Trent.  Of course I would like to have Trent here, obviously, but he's holding out and making ridiculous demands at this point which leads the majority to believe he will not be starting at LT on this team this upcoming season.  That could all change when his game day checks don't come in or not.  

 

 

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Are we not less than a year removed from Dallas trading a first for Cooper? If a team thinks they are on the cusp, they will make moves. TW is healthy, under contract for 2 years, and still very effective. He is worth a 1st at the minimum. Imo, we could get more than a 1st if we were to wait until week 4. We have no incentive to rush a trade as his market and value will only increase as the season progresses.

 

Its not ideal, as Trent has been very good here... but it is most definitely time to move him just as it was time to move cousins in 2017. This season is all about getting setup for 2020. Make a trade to Houston or another team that desperately needs an elite tackle during the season. We can then lock up Sherff, go into the 2020 draft with two 1sts, rebuild the tackle position, and start the 2020 season with an entirely revamped and young offensive core.

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5 hours ago, KDawg said:

<snip for length, not for lack of value>
 

You're trying to say his leadership will be missed. I agree. I am quite happy, though, that Adrian Peterson, Alex Smith, Jon Allen are all around. The team seems to really respect them and listen to them. Don't slowly take the band-aid off because you're afraid. Rip it and get it over with.

 

 

Thanks man, I really needed to read that.  You're right on all points.  I hope it didn't come across as me saying that you're a bad fan and that you want him gone and all that, I just knew that you were right and wanted to hear some more.

Peterson and Smith, though, will be gone soon even if their cap hits aren't.  Williams was a homegrown, went through the whole Griffin debacle, and all of the dysfunction.  Pairing that loss of leadership with the totally justified thought of, "Man, TRENT wants out of here?  Mr. Redskin for the past decade?  Maybe I don't re-sign."  Or similar thoughts to the FA market.  Just piles on Bruce.

I do think we have the emergence of leaders in Allen and Guice seems like a Portis-type guy in the making.  I know nothing about Haskins other than he was at OSU and he dropped to us unexpectedly.  Simultaneously, so did Allen.  I just hope we have some continuity moving forward, but that's more for the #firebruceallen thread.

Thanks again. :cheers:

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3 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

Again, y'all keep using the term "worth".  I never said he wasn't "worth" a first round pick, only I don't see teams offering a first round pick at this point in his holdout.  The only team that has anything to lose out of this is the Redskins and all the other 31 teams know that.  Could that change over the next 4-5 weeks?  Absolutely.  

 

But I'd imagine that unless a team lost their starting LT over the next 4-5 weeks, we are not going to have teams offering up a first round pick for TW anytime soon.  And then there are a lot more factors that come into play depending on who the team is (salary cap, etc.).  

 

Those guys you mention mean nothing to this situation with Trent.  Of course I would like to have Trent here, obviously, but he's holding out and making ridiculous demands at this point which leads the majority to believe he will not be starting at LT on this team this upcoming season.  That could all change when his game day checks don't come in or not.  

 

 

 

I agree with everything except the last part that's bolded. Have you seen something that outlines his exact demands? I have not. If you have please share - I mean that honestly. I have not seen anything from Trent or his representation that has stated what exactly he wants. There has been rampant speculation but nothing from Trent or his camp. Not even anything from the Redskins in terms of specifics. 

 

Jumping to the conclusion that he is making ridiculous demands when we do not know what those demands are is not fair to him - or the team either. The only things we know is he is unhappy which is keeping him out of TC. And the team "says" they know what is going on. 

 

Literally everything else is pure speculation. Something in there will turn out to be right. But at this moment we really do not know anything for sure outside of what I outlined above. 

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29 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

If Antonio Brown could only nab a 3rd and a 5th I’d be shocked if we get a 1st.

 

Brown was also a known malcontent and a diva.  Williams is understandably unhappy but never anything but a leader.

I'm not saying he's worth a first, but I don't think they're analogous even though I can see where you're coming from.

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How can anyone give our medical staff the benefit of the doubt after the past few seasons? The most telling thing about the Brewer article is that Gruden met with Trent's personal medical team to see if they had any answers for the medical disaster that has been the Redskins.

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32 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

If Antonio Brown could only nab a 3rd and a 5th I’d be shocked if we get a 1st.

 

Antonio Brown quit on his team in the middle of a playoff bid because Juju surpassed him, let the fame get to his head, threw his teamates under the bus, and demanded a huge raise 2 years into a 5-year extension.

 

Trent is nothing like this dude. He had a falling out over a medical issue. Show me a doctor who has correctly diagnosed an illness 100% of the time, and ill show you a liar. Its unfortunate that he wants out, but its probably for the best for both parties.

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