Owls0325

!!!!0mgz!!!! Trent Williams finally showed up

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45 minutes ago, Xameil said:

Where else can you find a thread that has reached this many pages of manic, polarizing discussions and people's certainty of a situation just based on speculation from not even 3rd party sources...

 

But it's fun!!!

 

The only thing I do know is that no one knows. Nothing escapes that building anymore, it's pure speculation and gossip at this point. But if Trent really does have a huge problem with the organization due to the medical treatment (understandable) and isn't going to report I say pull the trigger on a trade. There's no way we can't get at least a 2020 1st from him, and I think we could pull something off where we get multiple picks with one being a little later. Coach Christian up this year and maybe he's the future at one of the tackle spots, and then grab WR/OT with our 2 1's next year. Don't sit on it. Don't let it fester. Either make amends and maybe slightly restructure his contract and have him be the starting LT for the next 3 years. Or trade him while his value is still very high. Do NOT give him some huge guaranteed deal. 

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Posted (edited)

I agree with Galdi's sentiment, plenty of time on the Scherff contract.  I agree with those that it's high stakes because of his youth/ability but at least we got time.  The Trent thing is more immediate.   Listening to the beat guys they are saying that Trent's camp aren't taking thus far so its impossible for them to know what's fully going on -- but suggest the FO people they talk to think it will work its way out.   I guess will see. 

 

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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Posted (edited)

Haha I forgot Zorn applied to be our QB coach and he walked out as our head coach.

 

You cannot make this stuff up.   I think its safe to say our next coach will be a step back from Jay, unless we blind squirrel stumble upon the next McVay.   One thing Jay has that a  noob will not, an understanding of how to function at 7-9ish amid the chronic dysfunction here. 

 

I wish former coaches would write tell all books more often than they do.  I would like to hear Callahan's stories too. Maybe he will be our next coach.

Edited by RandyHolt
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40 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

 I think its safe to say our next coach will be a step back from Jay, unless we blind squirrel stumble upon the next McVay.

 

O'Connell has already been crowned that title

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Posted (edited)

This I've noticed is getting some play on radio talk.   I know you can't keep everyone.  But hopefully we can hold our cornerstones, Scherff, Allen, Payne, etc.  The Ionnaidis signing was good.   Also IMO they've drafted better in recent years so that should have some uptick in holding players.  Sharp said in a radio interview that the Scherff contract was his impetus to study it.   The out of the NFL stuff doesn't faze me -- late round picks typically don't make rosters or make it period in the NFL that's not a uniquely Redskins thing.

 

But Sharp to me brings up a point.  I like getting comp picks, etc.  But I gather you have to have a balance too where players who are drafted here don't think they are one and done and there is a chance that they can be long term players here.   How to balance that?  Not sure.  

 

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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10 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

Haha I forgot Zorn applied to be our QB coach and he walked out as our head coach.

 

You cannot make this stuff up.   I think its safe to say our next coach will be a step back from Jay, unless we blind squirrel stumble upon the next McVay.   One thing Jay has that a  noob will not, an understanding of how to function at 7-9ish amid the chronic dysfunction here. 

 

Yeah, its feeling more and more like that 2009 year,where you kinda hope something good will hapen, but deep down, you feel a sense of foreboding. No doubt he gets ****canned if things go south, and im not sure where the next even halfway decent coach is going to come from. I fully expect a Davey Martinez- like situation.

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I've noticed it over the years..rookies come in play out there contract than gone..maybe a little extension and that's it..its horrible..I'd still like to have crowder here..Allen's got to go!!

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1 hour ago, Mr. Sinister said:

 

Yeah, its feeling more and more like that 2009 year,where you kinda hope something good will hapen, but deep down, you feel a sense of foreboding. No doubt he gets ****canned if things go south, and im not sure where the next even halfway decent coach is going to come from. I fully expect a Davey Martinez- like situation.

Im sorry you feel that way.  Remember this was a team that was 6-3 in first place with AS playing very mediocre.  We will win some games this year.  

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2 minutes ago, NeverSurrender said:

Im sorry you feel that way.  Remember this was a team that was 6-3 in first place with AS playing very mediocre.  We will win some games this year.  

People who think like that really ought to look at that 2009 roster and realize how much more talented and deeper we are now. Not to mention you think there’s a circus in town now? It’s nothing compared to back then when we were undermining the head coaches authority and bringing in bingo callers mid season. Were absolutely too talented and have too many respected coaches on the staff to flat out crash and burn. 

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2 hours ago, NeverSurrender said:

Im sorry you feel that way.  Remember this was a team that was 6-3 in first place with AS playing very mediocre.  We will win some games this year.  

 

Yup. We'll lose some too 👍

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2 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

People who think like that really ought to look at that 2009 roster and realize how much more talented and deeper we are now. Not to mention you think there’s a circus in town now? It’s nothing compared to back then when we were undermining the head coaches authority and bringing in bingo callers mid season. Were absolutely too talented and have too many respected coaches on the staff to flat out crash and burn. 

 

I want you to be right.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

But Sharp to me brings up a point.  I like getting comp picks, etc.  But I gather you have to have a balance too where players who are drafted here don't think they are one and done and there is a chance that they can be long term players here.   How to balance that?  Not sure.  

 

 

 

 

It may sound bad, though I suspect most teams have similar track records. I could also quibble how much to attribute to Allen from 2012-2013 as those are clearly Shanahan years. But the real issue is most of the players got cut before the first 4 years were up. It's not like the team wasn't signing bona fide starters on the whole. Most of the list involves players cut long before 4 years for one reason or another. Looking at that tweet (which may be cutoff), I count 9 guys that played out a 4 year deal and were good enough to earn a second contract (Grffin, Preston Smith, Crowder, Ryan Grant, Breeland, Long, Murphy plus the three guys they did sign in Thompson, Reed, and Moses). So they effectively signed one third (3/9). And the ones they didn't sign look like smart moves (Long already cut, Grant and Breeland actually had their contracts nullified for physical issues, Griffin probably should have moved on anyway and wasn't wroth the money Cleveland gave him). So not sure this is a bad thing. It's not like they've really let good players just walk. Even Cousins got a few extra deals.

Edited by Jericho
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36 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

 

Yup. We'll lose some too 👍

I see where your going with this.  I will not follow.  Enjoy the season if you can. 

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19 minutes ago, NeverSurrender said:

I see where your going with this.  I will not follow.  Enjoy the season if you can. 

 

I'll try really hard

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2 hours ago, Jericho said:

 

It may sound bad, though I suspect most teams have similar track records. I could also quibble how much to attribute to Allen from 2012-2013 as those are clearly Shanahan years. But the real issue is most of the players got cut before the first 4 years were up. It's not like the team wasn't signing bona fide starters on the whole. Most of the list involves players cut long before 4 years for one reason or another. Looking at that tweet (which may be cutoff), I count 9 guys that played out a 4 year deal and were good enough to earn a second contract (Grffin, Preston Smith, Crowder, Ryan Grant, Breeland, Long, Murphy plus the three guys they did sign in Thompson, Reed, and Moses). So they effectively signed one third (3/9). And the ones they didn't sign look like smart moves (Long already cut, Grant and Breeland actually had their contracts nullified for physical issues, Griffin probably should have moved on anyway and wasn't wroth the money Cleveland gave him). So not sure this is a bad thing. It's not like they've really let good players just walk. Even Cousins got a few extra deals.

 

Yeah I agree. The context in this situation matters. It’s not like the Redskins were letting pro bowlers walk for cheap contracts elsewhere. The failure has been in selecting the players more than in retaining them or not retaining them. A better argument would around the lack of development of these players. To make the argument that Sapp and others are making that not resigning players is a failure, is a pretty poor one based on the players. This past year notwithstanding (since we don’t know how Crowder and P. Smith will perform), there is not one name on that list of players you mentioned that would have made a difference on this team. So the real problem is in selection and development of players not in letting mediocre players walk out the door.

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On 7/17/2019 at 9:36 AM, RandyHolt said:

If we were not afraid to go after Reuben Foster mid season, we should go get OT Desmond Harrison. We wanted him a month ago, and he is a free man. For now.  Assault charge assault smarge.

I find NFL locker rooms are a lot like teenagers. If they surround themselves with bad people then it shouldnt be a suprise when bad things happen. 

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In regard to the twitter post, Bruce has been mostly correct regarding extensions for drafted players (except cousins imo).

 

If you can find replacement level players via the draft to substitute for drafted players that are approaching free agency... you do it. End of story. 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 7/19/2019 at 1:52 PM, Jericho said:

 

It may sound bad, though I suspect most teams have similar track records. I could also quibble how much to attribute to Allen from 2012-2013 as those are clearly Shanahan years. But the real issue is most of the players got cut before the first 4 years were up. It's not like the team wasn't signing bona fide starters on the whole. Most of the list involves players cut long before 4 years for one reason or another. Looking at that tweet (which may be cutoff), I count 9 guys that played out a 4 year deal and were good enough to earn a second contract (Grffin, Preston Smith, Crowder, Ryan Grant, Breeland, Long, Murphy plus the three guys they did sign in Thompson, Reed, and Moses). So they effectively signed one third (3/9). And the ones they didn't sign look like smart moves (Long already cut, Grant and Breeland actually had their contracts nullified for physical issues, Griffin probably should have moved on anyway and wasn't wroth the money Cleveland gave him). So not sure this is a bad thing. It's not like they've really let good players just walk. Even Cousins got a few extra deals.

 

the slotted rookie contract is the gold standard these days.. now you essentially get a 4 year try and buy and a set price, and once that is up, you can decide if you want to make that player one of the elite 5 or so guys who will get most of the money on the cap. 
if they won't be in our upper echelon contract club,  ie: Doctson, cut bait. We now have a try and buy on McLauren.

It is how you manage the cap, and rather easily. it makes planning for the future easier, too.

 

what the downside is is it creates teams of haves and have nots, and mid-to upper level talent that just aren't elite will bounce around the league like a Super Ball. 3 yr deal here, 1 yr deal there. (Course, this also creates a seller's market for maybe-not-elite guys like Landon Collins who fills a need, and gets paid elite type money in free agency. (Preston smith.. hey, he's worth it to the packers, not really elite money, but a good chunk.. upside for us: now we get Sweat on a rookie deal for a four year test drive.
Jamison Crowder is a prime example. He deserves a modest pay increase, certain;y.. but match it against 7th round Tre Quinn and it's a no brainer, especially given the apparent ability of Quinn to do the job if he can stay healthy. It's worth the gamble. 

 

 

the damning part is how many guys are out of the league. But, i will say Bruce has made some nice drafts in the last few years, and some very shrewd deals.
Cousins does look like he may be the jar of mayo lots of people said, and frankly, after last year's disaster with Alex Smith's injury,, the fact he rebuilt the Qb room without spending diddly squat could go down in redskins lore if Haskins pans out, or Keenum plays like he did in MN.
Think of this... I believe Colt should / will be cut. Kinda surprised he hasn't already been as a courtesy so he can catch on someplace.

Once that happens, our QB room (minus Smith) will be one of the least expensive positions on our team, AND, there is potential there. 

No matter who is directly responsible, the fact is our FO have been getting better at what they do.

Now the team needs to stay healthy and get it done on the field. They are VERY close to being "rebuilt", and with just a normal set of injuries, SHOULD begin contending. 

 

And everrrryyyybody's sleepin' on 'em.......

 

~Shhhhh

 

 

 

Edited by Bang
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Posted (edited)

I agree that tweet by Sharp is pretty much without any context.

 

For starters, Bruce Allen picks should be analyzed from 2014 onward. Sharp completely ignores that Shanahan had complete control over personnel written into his contract, and made sure everyone knew this when he first came on board. 25 of the 34 players Sharp lists as either out of the league or free agents were drafted during the 4 years under Shanahan.

 

Second, I think the average career of an NFL player is 4 years, isn't it?...That would seem to indicate that most teams have similar track records in terms of 2nd contracts and players who aren't on a team or out of the league.

 

Just as a comparison, here's how the Skins' draft picks in 2014 and 2015 with Allen in control of things have ended up compared to how the Patriots' draft picks over that same time span have ended up (I picked the Patriots since everyone holds them up as the gold standard and they've had the same decision-makers in place):

 

No. of players drafted:

Skins - 18

Patriots - 19

 

No. of players signed to a 2nd contract:

Skins - 2 (counting Scherff)

Patriots - 3

 

No. of players either still free agents or out of the league entirely:

Skins - 9

Patriots - 8

 

 

Can't help but think Sharp's incredulity at the Skins' draft track record is somewhat disingenuous lol...

Edited by Califan007
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20 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

I agree that tweet by Sharp is pretty much without any context.

 

For starters, Bruce Allen picks should be analyzed from 2014 onward. Sharp completely ignores that Shanahan had complete control over personnel written into his contract, and made sure everyone knew this when he first came on board. 25 of the 34 players Sharp lists as either out of the league or free agents were drafted during the 4 years under Shanahan.

 

Second, I think the average career of an NFL player is 4 years, isn't it?...That would seem to indicate that most teams have similar track records in terms of 2nd contracts and players who aren't on a team or out of the league.

 

Just as a comparison, here's how the Skins' draft picks in 2014 and 2015 with Allen in control of things have ended up compared to how the Patriots' draft picks over that same time span have ended up (I picked the Patriots since everyone holds them up as the gold standard and they've had the same decision-makers in place):

 

No. of players drafted:

Skins - 18

Patriots - 19

 

No. of players signed to a 2nd contract:

Skins - 2 (counting Scherff)

Patriots - 3

 

No. of players either still free agents or out of the league entirely:

Skins - 9

Patriots - 8

 

 

Can't help but think Sharp's incredulity at the Skins' draft track record is somewhat disingenuous lol...

 

Great pull. Also would like to chime in and say that our last few drafts are examples of “hitting” on picks much more than the league average. I’d say the numbers for retaining players on a second contract/player receiving second contract elsewhere from that crop (2017-2019) will be far greater than the above. Seems like a cherry pick effort. 

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Interesting post. I agree with much of it but have a few adjustments. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Bang said:

 

the slotted rookie contract is the gold standard these days.. now you essentially get a 4 year try and buy and a set price, and once that is up, you can decide if you want to make that player one of the elite 5 or so guys who will get most of the money on the cap. 
if they won't be in our upper echelon contract club,  ie: Doctson, cut bait. We now have a try and buy on McLauren.

It is how you manage the cap, and rather easily. it makes planning for the future easier, too.

 

1 hour ago, Bang said:

 

what the downside is is it creates teams of haves and have nots, and mid-to upper level talent that just aren't elite will bounce around the league like a Super Ball. 3 yr deal here, 1 yr deal there. (Course, this also creates a seller's market for maybe-not-elite guys like Landon Collins who fills a need, and gets paid elite type money in free agency. (Preston smith.. hey, he's worth it to the packers, not really elite money, but a good chunk.. upside for us: now we get Sweat on a rookie deal for a four year test drive.
Jamison Crowder is a prime example. He deserves a modest pay increase, certain;y.. but match it against 7th round Tre Quinn and it's a no brainer, especially given the apparent ability of Quinn to do the job if he can stay healthy. It's worth the gamble. 

 

Totally agree here just want to add the 5th yr option on 1st rd picks. Had they wanted to keep Doctson thy could have done so without him having any say i nit. If they pick up his option he is a Redskin. Goes further to your point that the teams really got a lot of control with the rookie wage CAP. 

 

Let me add this - the players had horrible representation for the last CBA. They got fleeced in almost every conceivable way. They need to get better representation fro the next negotiation. If they do though, it really could lead a football free season. The players need the money more than the owners but if there is no football, there are no owners at all. But still, I think it will be up to the players how far they are willing to go. They really need to stand their ground but it may be too late. They lost so much in he last agreement. 

 

1 hour ago, Bang said:

 

 

the damning part is how many guys are out of the league. But, i will say Bruce has made some nice drafts in the last few years, and some very shrewd deals.
Cousins does look like he may be the jar of mayo lots of people said, and frankly, after last year's disaster with Alex Smith's injury,, the fact he rebuilt the Qb room without spending diddly squat could go down in redskins lore if Haskins pans out, or Keenum plays like he did in MN.
Think of this... I believe Colt should / will be cut. Kinda surprised he hasn't already been as a courtesy so he can catch on someplace.

Once that happens, our QB room (minus Smith) will be one of the least expensive positions on our team, AND, there is potential there. 

No matter who is directly responsible, the fact is our FO have been getting better at what they do.

Now the team needs to stay healthy and get it done on the field. They are VERY close to being "rebuilt", and with just a normal set of injuries, SHOULD begin contending. 

 

And everrrryyyybody's sleepin' on 'em.......

 

~Shhhhh

 

 

 

 

As for Colt, teams can't cut a player that cannot pass a physical unless his contract runs out, and then of course he is not cut, just not resigned. They get paid until they clear their physical. Teams can but out their contract but it still counts against the CAP. They are IR so they do not count against the 53 so cutting them is of no benefit to the team anyway. But they can't so it is kind of moot. Also, I do not believe they will release Colt even when they can. Jay sees him as an insurance policy. And ofter having all your potential starting QBs go down to injury, I could easily see them carrying 3 QBs. Don;t getm e wrong. I would love to see them releasr Colt, but I jsut do not see them doing so.  

 

I appreciate your optimism and I think we are better than some others. But not sure we are "very close" to being rebuilt. There are huge ?s all over this team, but especially on Offense.  WR is a huge unknown. No one in the WR room scares any DC on other teams - at least not yet. RB are a ? - although arguably the smallest Q on the offense - due to APs age, CT always being injured, Guice never played an NFL regular season down, Love likely to at least start on IR and the rest being JAGs. TE - we have 1.5 and the .5 is turning into Methuselah and the 1 has yet to play a full season. And Sprinkle showed a few glimpses but he is not really good at blocking which is supposed to be his strength. Oline has a history of being injured, we do not even know if our best player will be in camp, at least to this point they have not resigned Scherff (may not be a problem and I agree it's too early to panic, but as of right now, it's something that has to be considered when evaluating the team. Moses can't stay healthy and we really have no idea who is playing LG. We have a really bad T who is being looked at G, who I actually think may be better at G than others - but he has yet to have any success in the NFL. The other candidates are mid rd rookies - could they pan out? Of course and I would love nothing better. But as of right now, Oline is a ?  QB is a ? but to be fair I think it's a good ? I like both Keenum and Haskins - I would like to see Case start a few games and then let the rookie in unless Case is undefeated or something. They could also pull a Philly and let Keenum play this season then tag him (yes tag him) and then work a tag and trade. I know it's supposedly against the rules but the Packers and I believe the Patriots pulled it off so it can be done. Anyway, I digress. 

 

On, D who are our MLBs? I like Collins but is he an elite S? And who is playing FS? CB has Norman who is good - not elite but very good, DRC who is long in the tooth who can still play OK, and then a bunch of young unproven guys. DLine, OLBs and STs are the only things that are not ?s and again while QB is a ?, it's not a big one. I like our options. But it is a ?. 

 

Now could this team be really good? Absolutely. There appears to be a lot of potential. But for right now that's all it is, potential. And awfully lot of things have to go right. Ultimately it's unlikely that all the various things that need to happen for them to really good actually happen. If they fall short and say what is normal is say half those things go well - could the team be competitive? Absolutely. I do not see this as a bad roster. But's not a really good roster either. 

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Posted (edited)

@goskins10
Can't disagree with any of those questions, but I have optimism that a little health will go a long way to answering them.

Our ILBs may be a question, but i think we have upgraded in the most important position there, and that is at LB coach. To me now, the name quality of the player is less important. i think Ryan can take SDH, Bostic, and even foster and make them significantly better than they were just by his aggressive style. I think he can get results out of the players we've got.
The defensive line fills me with optimism. i think we are going to be maulers up front, among the best in the NFL, which makes everyone else's job behind that much easier. Ryan and Tomsula working in concert should terrify offenses. last year before injury bugs we were monsters, stuffing the run and working over QBs.


offensively.. yes there are questions at these positions, but I figure this. Most of those questions have answers,, it is just a matter now of seeing if the answer is right. (Which is to say we're not just looking at any one of them and wondering what to do.)

Case.. i again point to coaching.. jay has devised offenses that have put up monster years throwing the ball, and then changed gears entirely last year to grind it out, keep it conservative, use Alex Smith's skill-set.. and was 6-3 working the system to the talent, rather than forcing things.  Suddenly finding a round hole and changing to the round peg.... Gruden has shown he can do this, and IMO, this is the hallmark of a good offensive coach. He will put Keenum in position to make the plays he makes best, as opposed to being purely a system guy who will keep forcing a square peg because the system is all he can coach.

IF a couple of those questions come up right..   IF the RBs stay healthy (guice).. they should flourish.
IF the OL has a normal amount of injury issues for a change..  IF P-Rich can stay on the field and these young WRs can find a player or 2 in their midst...
I doubt we come up zeroes on everything.

Health is our biggest obstacle.

And Ereck Flowers. This is an answer we know is wrong. A sore thumb of idiocy in an otherwise good offseason.

 

~Bang

Edited by Bang
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1 hour ago, Bang said:


offensively.. yes there are questions at these positions, but I figure this. Most of those questions have answers,, it is just a matter now of seeing if the answer is right. (Which is to say we're not just looking at any one of them and wondering what to do.)

 

Fair statement and allow me to elaborate what it means for me. Many will say that they have answers every year, just some of those answers are dumb. Where I agree with you - if I understand correctly - that this year they have legitimate answers for many of those questions not just a wing and prayer. 

 

1 hour ago, Bang said:

Case.. i again point to coaching.. jay has devised offenses that have put up monster years throwing the ball, and then changed gears entirely last year to grind it out, keep it conservative, use Alex Smith's skill-set.. and was 6-3 working the system to the talent, rather than forcing things.  Suddenly finding a round hole and changing to the round peg.... Gruden has shown he can do this, and IMO, this is the hallmark of a good offensive coach. He will put Keenum in position to make the plays he makes best, as opposed to being purely a system guy who will keep forcing a square peg because the system is all he can coach.

IF a couple of those questions come up right..   IF the RBs stay healthy (guice).. they should flourish.
IF the OL has a normal amount of injury issues for a change..  IF P-Rich can stay on the field and these young WRs can find a player or 2 in their midst...
I doubt we come up zeroes on everything.

 

As for some of the players mentioned, I like SDH. He could be a major surprise. He had some health issues which worry me but he was good mid to late rd flyer that may pan out. My concern about Case - esp in the scenario above - is will Bruce and Dan let Jay start Case (this is a huge problem in itself that we even have to ask that questions.) If they stay out of it, I have confidence in Jay to get the most of either QB. So I am with you there - if Dan and Bruce stay out of the starting decision. 

 

I do agree our coaching is better than many give it credit, and that includes Jay. My only real issues with Jay are play calling sometimes (not as much as others), and in game adjustments - clock management to a certain extent. However for clock management i am not sure fans understand how difficult that is and that virtually every coach in the league struggles with that - because they are so focused on the plays and and players. Turning over play calling to someone else, I believe will help him in those other areas as it frees him to focus more on them. But that's just me. 

 

Back to your point, I agree there should be some optimism with the coaches and how they can mold these. And while I totally agree they will not come up zeros on all the ?s, they are not going to bat 100% either. My fear is that they will be about 50/50 and will be again stuck in this average season purgatory which would open the door to leaving Bruce in place despite not making the POs yet again. 

 

1 hour ago, Bang said:

Health is our biggest obstacle. 


And Ereck Flowers. This is an answer we know is wrong. A sore thumb of idiocy in an otherwise good offseason.

 

~Bang

 

Health is obviously an issue but that is one of my problems with the FO. They keep attempting to rely on guys with injury histories to suddenly become injury free and lead us to the promise land.  

 

This is where I bring it back to Trent - this poor thread keeps getting derailed and i fear I am one of the main culprits so my apologies - one of the ?s is offensive line even without Trent's potential holdout or wanting to be traded. And now they are between a rock and hard place. If they trade him that ? gets bigger. But if they pay him, it does not lessen the ? much in that we have to wonder how many games he will play. His last 16 gm season was 2013 - although in fairness? 2016 was due to suspension. But either way he was not on the field. 

 

I guess we will find out Wednesday if this was a serious issue or just some off season boredom news. Maybe Trent was never really that upset and/or this has already been resolved just not announced. 

 

Oddly enough I am more bullish on Ereck only in that I think he can play some G for us, and do at least a better job than who we have had the last few seasons. If he ever has to play T we are royally screwed. But G? could be a fit there, especially with Callaghan. 

 

Maybe this is the year the winds of fortune blow our way. If more things go our way than against, it could be a really good season. I am anxious as always to see what happens. 

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Posted (edited)

Yes, sorry to derail.
I hope to hell everything that was swirling is mostly just smoke and media speculation about Trent. 
i'd rather trust using than ereck Flowers. I might even add "please" to it.
do_not_enter_sign-1283-1_1.jpg

 

~Bang

Edited by Bang
  • Haha 1

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