Owls0325

!!!!0mgz!!!! Trent Williams finally showed up

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1 hour ago, NeverSurrender said:

To be fair, we drafted him to be a Tackle.  He failed miserably there so we moved him to guard.  We can use that in negotiations though. 

That’s the kind of stuff a guy like Bruce uses in negotiations that can easily make free agency look more appealing to the player.

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3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

That’s the kind of stuff a guy like Bruce uses in negotiations that can easily make free agency look more appealing to the player.

 

We will soon have players asking to be traded to Miami.

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39 minutes ago, NeverSurrender said:

Brandon Scherff was drafted by us to play RT.  He got manhandled by Kerrigan so they moved him to Guard.  Lucky for the skins, Scherff was also one of the top interior linemen in the draft as well.  Teams usually dont draft Guards at #5.  

From what I understood, they knew what they were getting but was hoping he could play RT. They knew what they had in terms of interior lineman and they took a shot. They took a risk but that risk still had a high floor in that worse came to worst he would be an elite guard. 

 

I'm also pretty sure he never even played a game at RT, regular or preseason for the Redskins. He may have been a solid tackle but, as everyone reported, he was probably better suited inside. 

Edited by PartyPosse

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4 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

That’s the kind of stuff a guy like Bruce uses in negotiations that can easily make free agency look more appealing to the player.

Yeah because tackles and guards have the same value.  So clearly we should offer a huge contract.   Oh wait apparently our O-line coach can turn FLOWERS into a decent guard.  We also have Wes Martin and Pierscebacher so I think Schreff is more expendable after this season then one might think.  

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1 minute ago, NeverSurrender said:

Yeah because tackles and guards have the same value.  So clearly we should offer a huge contract.   Oh wait apparently our O-line coach can turn FLOWERS into a decent guard.  We also have Wes Martin and Pierscebacher so I think Schreff is more expendable after this season then one might think.  

Having two late round picks who haven't played a down in the NFL are leverage against one of the best guards in the league?

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21 minutes ago, RWJ said:

Fair point but we really don't know who lets out this info.  

 

There's no upshot for it to be from Scherff's camp.  Leaking the amount to a reporter doesn't help him in negotiations, if he indeed is negotiating in good faith.  

 

But it is something the FO has done before (Cousins).  Seems to me that if past history applies, a deal isn't likely at this point.  

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2 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

Having two late round picks who haven't played a down in the NFL are leverage against one of the best guards in the league?

I think he's onto something. Maybe Trent Williams really is scared of Geron Christian after all. :806:

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6 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

Having two late round picks who haven't played a down in the NFL are leverage against one of the best guards in the league?

Yes, its called depth.  It does give you leverage.  Scherff is good but has only given us 1 good season.  The world will not end if we dont resign him and we have capable young guys to fill the void. It easier to draft and get interior players then quality Tackles, THAT is our leverage. 

Edited by NeverSurrender
Good info
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2 minutes ago, NeverSurrender said:

Yes, its called depth.  It does give you leverage.  Scherff is good but has only given us 1 good season.  The world will not end if we dont resign him and we have capable young guys to fill the void. 

Depth is one thing, but assuming that two guys who haven't played in a game could come remotely close to replicating what Scherff has done is naive. Also, dude made the pro-bowl two years running and played as well as could expected last year considering the constant rotation of linemen. Moses was hampered all season with lingering foot issues, Chase was a rookie and Shaun Lauvao was Shaun Lauvao. I get some people don't value guard as much as tackle but Scherff is one of the top 5 at his position and should be paid accordingly. Losing him and Trent would be an absolute disaster longterm. 

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It doesn't even matter what we think the value is, the value of nonskilled positions are skyrocketing and that floor gets reset every free agency period.

 

Tier 1 guards are now getting $12M - $14M per year, it is what it is.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, NeverSurrender said:

Yeah because tackles and guards have the same value.  So clearly we should offer a huge contract.   Oh wait apparently our O-line coach can turn FLOWERS into a decent guard.  We also have Wes Martin and Pierscebacher so I think Schreff is more expendable after this season then one might think.  

What he was drafted as vs. what he is now is irrelevant.  He is a guard now. Guards are more coveted now than ever before and the market for guards is indicative of just that.  

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3 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

Depth is one thing, but assuming that two guys who haven't played in a game could come remotely close to replicating what Scherff has done is naive. Also, dude made the pro-bowl two years running and played as well as could expected last year considering the constant rotation of linemen. Moses was hampered all season with lingering foot issues, Chase was a rookie and Shaun Lauvao was Shaun Lauvao. I get some people don't value guard as much as tackle but Scherff is one of the top 5 at his position and should be paid accordingly. Losing him and Trent would be an absolute disaster longterm. 

Uhh no, Scherff has only made the probowl once.  Also you seem to think he played the whole year last year.  He did not, only played in 8 games before the torn pec.  Just as the the team is moving on without Trent, it will move on without Schreff IF we let him go.  Its not naive to think that those young guys can replicate 1 probowl appearance considering Bill Callahan is coaching them. 

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7 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

but Scherff is one of the top 5 at his position and should be paid accordingly. Losing him and Trent would be an absolute disaster longterm. 

 

Is he though? I think we as Redskins fans tend to over value our players. I think he is very good, but there are other very good guards in the league. He is top 10, probably. Top 15 most definitely. Top 5? Probably not. 

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12 minutes ago, NeverSurrender said:

Uhh no, Scherff has only made the probowl once.  Also you seem to think he played the whole year last year.  He did not, only played in 8 games before the torn pec.  Just as the the team is moving on without Trent, it will move on without Schreff IF we let him go.  Its not naive to think that those young guys can replicate 1 probowl appearance considering Bill Callahan is coaching them. 

He was a pro-bowler in both 2016 and 2017. Even if it was only one appearance as you seem to think, yes, it is naive to think you can replicate that. 

 

And we saw what happened last year when Scherff went down and guys like Luke Bowanko and Austin Howard had to play. The team looked like garbage. You can teach technique but you can't teach talent. 

 

Also, if the team doesn't wrap him up before Indy extends Nelson then we won't get him under 15.

Edited by PartyPosse
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1 hour ago, PartyPosse said:

Ummm... huh?

 

He was the best OL in the draft and played his last year of college at LT.  But is was said that even though he played tackle in college he would most likely be better suited to play guard in the NFL.  We drafted him at #5 with the intention of playing him at RT opposite TW.  During camp and pre-season, Bill Callahan said he looked better and more comfortable playing guard so they kicked him inside and the rest is history.

 

And on the subject of him being a #5 overall pick and wanting more money, I could see that argument during the years before the rookie pay scale/contracts when players could basically negotiate anything they wanted.  Now that it's a set salary, it's not nearly as bad as it's more team friendly the first 4 years.  

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While on the subject, Geron Christian is the worst player in the history of football.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

He was the best OL in the draft and played his last year of college at LT.  But is was said that even though he played tackle in college he would most likely be better suited to play guard in the NFL.  We drafted him at #5 with the intention of playing him at RT opposite TW.  During camp and pre-season, Bill Callahan said he looked better and more comfortable playing guard so they kicked him inside and the rest is history.

 

 

I thought they wanted him to play RT, but Moses was not doing well at RG.  They pushed Moses to RT and Scherff to RG.

 

We'd be stupid to let Scherff go unless he wants obscene money.  We have no one behind him and he has played very well for us.  It's not like this line can afford to lose talent and he's the best player on the current OL.

 

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15 minutes ago, sempre_victrix said:

 

I thought they wanted him to play RT, but Moses was not doing well at RG.  They pushed Moses to RT and Scherff to RG.

I don't remember Moses ever playing at rg.  He was terrible the prior year so I think the plans were for him to be relegated to the bench.  And scherff didn't last long at tackle, they moved him to guard pretty quickly.  scherff at rg and Moses at rt looked good, and they stayed there.

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1 hour ago, dballer said:

 

Is he though? I think we as Redskins fans tend to over value our players. I think he is very good, but there are other very good guards in the league. He is top 10, probably. Top 15 most definitely. Top 5? Probably not. 

 

I don't know where I'd put Scherff, but he's probably closer to 5 than he is to ten or fifteen.  He's no Martin or DeCastro, and his best isn't as good as the best from Bitonio, Zeitler, Osemele, or Norwell.  But he's more consistent than almost anyone else, including them.  He's never reached an All-Pro tier, but he's played at a tier just below that his entire career.  I don't think there are currently five other guards in the league for whom that's true.

 

He's probably a little better than Cody Whitehair and Ali Marpet, and that's his tier.  But they each signed a year early so their extensions are super team friendly.  Scherff will cost us more, but he's worth 13 million a year.  14 is acceptable too given he has a fair argument that he's been better than Norwell the past couple of seasons.

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17 minutes ago, sempre_victrix said:

 

We'd be stupid to let Scherff go unless he wants obscene money.  We have no one behind him and he has played very well for us.  It's not like this line can afford to lose talent and he's the best player on the current OL.

 

Scherff is a guy I like having on my side.  Mean and nasty.  His addition lifted the whole offense.  Moses play was much improved (at least for a season or two) with scherff next to him, and that's definitely not a coincidence.  

 

I view scherffs injuries as freak, I'm not ready to label him injury prone.  But I know his play has not been great this season.  However, he will get a big deal, and the Redskins won't give it to him.  They like to shop in the bargain bin. 

 

I definitely believe these reports that the skins are offering 13 mil per. That's a number you throw out there early in negotiations, not a last ditch effort before you are resigned to let him walk.  Reminds me of the KC negotiations, they low-ball him for years, then finally offered him his aav equal to the tag, and by that time the player stopped taking negotiations seriously.  

 

Whether scherff lives up to that type of deal remains to be seen, but I'm pretty confident it won't be with the skins.  Instead of wasting his time with low-ball offers, BA should've been working the phones seeing if he could get a 2020 2nd for scherff.  Instead, we will settle for a 2021 3rd.

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7 minutes ago, KillBill26 said:

I view scherffs injuries as freak, I'm not ready to label him injury prone.  But I know his play has not been great this season.  However, he will get a big deal, and the Redskins won't give it to him.  They like to shop in the bargain bin. 

Aside from the torn pec last year he's been relatively injury-free.

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I think the idea that guards are unskilled or are less valuable is a little outdated. With the advent of zone blitzing and so many teams constantly blitzing up the middle, the center of the line better be strong. We've seen our QBs get killed for years because of poor guard and center play. Any weak link is exploited. Shawn Lovaou (sp) being pushed back ended how many drives despite being next to Trent Williams?

 

I mean tackles are still important, but pressure comes from everywhere these days and the shortest distance is that straight line up the middle. NFL defenses (other than ours) are almost all pressure based. The stout center is as important as the solid edge. Besides, modern guards do have to pull, trap, and possess good mobility and athleticism. They're not just huge immovable mountains. 

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11 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

Aside from the torn pec last year he's been relatively injury-free.

He limped around on an mcl in 2017.  I think the pro bowl nod he earned was pretty generous.  But the fact that he missed only a couple games speaks to his toughness, I'm sure some other guys would've missed more than 2 games.

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3 minutes ago, Burgold said:

I think the idea that guards are unskilled or are less valuable is a little outdated. With the advent of zone blitzing and so many teams constantly blitzing up the middle, the center of the line better be strong. We've seen our QBs get killed for years because of poor guard and center play. Any weak link is exploited. Shawn Lovaou (sp) being pushed back ended how many drives despite being next to Trent Williams?

 

I mean tackles are still important, but pressure comes from everywhere these days and the shortest distance is that straight line up the middle. NFL defenses (other than ours) are almost all pressure based. The stout center is as important as the solid edge. Besides, modern guards do have to pull, trap, and possess good mobility and athleticism. They're not just huge immovable mountains. 

I agree. I think the notion of Tackles being the most important on the line carries more weight at a time where pocket passers still dominated the league and QBs rarely left the pocket unless forced out. 

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52 minutes ago, sempre_victrix said:

 

I thought they wanted him to play RT, but Moses was not doing well at RG.  They pushed Moses to RT and Scherff to RG.

 

 

 

Scherff & Long were the right side before we were set to battle with Jj Watt in joint practices. The staff wouldn’t let that happen, Scherff was atrocious, so they put Moses back in at rt before those practices began.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Burgold said:

I think the idea that guards are unskilled or are less valuable is a little outdated. With the advent of zone blitzing and so many teams constantly blitzing up the middle, the center of the line better be strong. We've seen our QBs get killed for years because of poor guard and center play.

 

 

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