Owls0325

!!!!0mgz!!!! Trent Williams finally showed up

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2 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I agree with you.  Bad teams don't get better by letting their few good players who are good fits walk.  The only thing in the way of keeping Scherff is money.  We can afford to pay our good players who are good bets to play well because of age and ability.

 

We've got a young QB.  It's time to start building our OL, not deconstructing it, and Scherff is a worthwhile building block.

 

 

2 hours ago, Skin'emAlive said:

 

 

2. Sherff has regressed a bit. Maybe its due to the injuries. Though i think that is due more to Moses than anything else. He is still a very very good guard that every team would love to have. Problem A is that he wants the moon, and i dont think we should shell out the kind of cash hes looking for.

 

 

Agree with @stevemcqueen1 here. 

 

@Skin'emAlive  as for the money part, all I've heard so far from two different beat guys is that Bruce lowballed Scherff with the initial offers.   I have not heard anything about Scherff wanting the moon.   But yeah if Bruce expects a bargain for a pro bowl young OG who can hit the market -- he's not getting one.   As for him slipping, he had the highest PFF grade on the team aside from McLaurin last week.  I haven't seen the new grades, yet.  PFF isn't the be all and end all but they swear by their O line grades above any other position.

 

Maybe Bruce can learn from the Eagles among other teams who locked in their young stars early before the salaries escalated.  He does it some times but not enough IMO.

 

2 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

 

I know you're a PFF fan, and I generally like what they do too.  Their number grade system can be helpful for quantifying overall performance. 

 

I used to be a big baseball stats guy.  It's hard to quantify football the same way but PFF is the best shot at it.  I am not religious though on the metric component of evaluation -- I battled with one dude on the draft thread a lot because he was almost strictly going by the college dominator metric for receivers and I wasn't.  McLaurin ironically was an exception that I liked among others who failed on that metric.   For my taste, I thought you had to put his stats in context and I just liked what I saw watching him.   And I know you also like to watch the players versus purely going on stats and that's what makes the draft thread fun for me.  We all do our own evaluations based on what we see.  Stats are in the mix but not the whole story.   But yeah in a similar vein, Scherff pops to me when I watch him.  He's not elite like Q. Nelson.  But for a dude that big he can really move and pull and hit people on the run.  He's not as good as Trent in that regard but to me he's not a dude that is easily replaced.  

 

2 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Keeping Scherff is a no-brainer IMO.  We also need upgrades at both tackle spots and another one at either center or guard.

 

 Agree.  It's not easy to just overhaul the O line in one fell swoop.  See NY Giants.   Much easier to upgrade 2 spots then 3-4, etc.  I don't want to dismantle and rebuild the O line.  As of now we don't have a 2nd round pick in 2020.  We rarely tap into FA to sign major players.  And its tough to meet all needs in the draft nor do I like drafting to need.     

 

As an example, Jay talked in the off season about wanting a TE who can do it all.  It didn't happen because the draft board didn't play out that way.   With Haskins hopefully ready to start in 2020, I don't want to play with the O line that much in a piece meal fashion where it can take multiple drafts to rebuild.  Other positions, maybe. But not the O line with a young QB who will depend on it.   

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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On 3/18/2018 at 1:49 PM, volsmet said:

 

Thank you. 

 

Its easy to understand why many would be against it, but I’d venture to guess most of them have said, “you put your best unit out there”, or something similar, a time or two.

 

Callahan appears to have done something special with Ty, I believe it would be unfortunate to leave him on the bench because OT is the more glorified position & Trent is the leader of the offense. If Ty can play like he did in 2016, I find it very hard to believe our best line is not with Trent at guard. I think he’s be quite something at G & we’d be making the most of Callahan’s work & the talent at Redskins park. 

 

If Ty could play guard, I believe we’d have seen it. We know Trent can, and he may be the best in the NFL if he wants to be. In the interest of making Washington the most competitive team possible next year, I think Dallas would prefer to see us with Trent at OT & Luke at G than Ty at OT & Trent at guard. Trent & Brandon could do a lot for young Chase as well. 

 

Im not afraid to get hammered by the ES experts, unleash on me with gusto, I’m pro-discussion & welcome the enthusiasm of the ES cast of characters. I’ve been reading this board for many years. 

 

I mentioned in my first post, I think trading Trent is our best option. If the only thing that matters is winning a title, I’m not going the Joe Thomas route, I’m taking advantage of the leagues desperation for OTs (Solder & Pugh contracts are absurd) & I’m sending Trent to get his SB in exchange for picks in the 2019 & 2020 drafts. 

 

I was in favor of trading Cousins, firing Jay to keep McVay, & trading up for D Watson. I’m no stranger to unpopular positions, I’ve shared them elsewhere but this board is the place to be. Unleash the fury.

 

Again, thank you for the welcome. Few things are more heartwarming than a well placed emoticon. I won’t soon forget the gesture.

 

 

Fond memories of losing my posting virginity after 15 years on the ES. 

 

 

C59EEC1B-0AA5-4E53-AA21-47BC82FCE659.gif

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I used to be a big baseball stats guy. 

 

The good old days when fangraphs was used by 7 people. I miss those days. 

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The Finlay article here a little whole ago, his tweet was posted, is worth a read.  It's as if he reads this thread.  😀

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/redskins/49ers-and-patriots-need-tackles-and-redskins-should-trade-trent-williams

Sure, there's plenty of bad blood between Shanahan and the Redskins organization. The San Francisco coach believes the Redskins did him and his father wrong during their ugly divorce in 2013, when the organization chose Robert Griffin III over the coaching staff. 

 

Know what? Who cares. This is professional football and the front office needs to do what's best long-term for the Redskins, not hold a team back due to petty squabbles from nearly a decade ago. 

 

If San Francisco wants Trent, and makes a reasonable offer, Washington needs to listen. 

 

New England has already inquired about Trent. That happened. There was no real conversation about a trade then, but that doesn't mean there can't be now. 

 

Other teams will have injuries, and other teams certainly have needs on the offensive line. 

 

The Redskins appear to be taking a stand, refusing to bow to Williams' demands and waiting for his return. ESPN reported that could happen this week as Williams is racking up millions in fines. It's also worth pointing out that potential trade partners could be scared off if Williams is working behind the scenes in demand of a new contract. 

 

At some point, however, the organization is cutting off their nose to spite their face. Trent doesn't want to be here. It's obvious. If he wanted to be in Washington, he would be in Washington. 

 

There is another angle to this, now, after an 0-2 start that didn't apply in August or July or any earlier point in Williams' holdout. Earlier in the year, the Redskins had hope of delivering some strong on-field performances and proving they're not a team in the middle of a rebuild.

 

At 0-2 and with a defense giving up 31.5 points-per-game, it's extremely unlikely the 2019 Redskins season ends in a playoff game. Nearly 90 percent of teams that open 0-2 don't make the playoffs. 

 

It's time for honesty in the Trent Williams situation. He wants out. Teams could use him, multiple teams, and it stands to reason the Redskins could recoup at least a first-round pick if they move Williams. 

 

Going into 2020, Washington will be looking at Dwayne Haskins at quarterback and there could be a significant amount of salary cap space to maneuver in Washington. Wouldn't an additional first-round pick help the team more in the long run? Consider, too, that even if Williams returns in 2019, he's unlikely to be happy about his contract or whatever else is on his mind in 2020. Does Washington really want to elongate this drama and deal with it all of next season?

Trent Williams wants out. Teams need him. Make the deal. 

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3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

t's not easy to just overhaul the O line in one fell swoop.  See NY Giants.   

 

 

We have been looking for a guard & center for a decade. Losing Scherff for nothing is not something being discussed, but if you can get Dalton Risner on a rookie contract & invest the money in other areas, you come out ahead, by a decent bit, imo. 

 

Then again, we should be able to clear a decent bit of money soon enough. 

 

If Trent & Scherff each brought back firsts ... we replace Trent with a tackle who is both cheaper & actually at Redskins park, we replace Scherff with a first round guard that’s cheaper, & we can spend on upgrades elsewhere. We haven’t been particularly imposing with Trent & Scherff, I want the young, cheap talent & I want the money to spend in FA.

 

3 firsts in next year’s draft, what a time to be alive. Trade downs & blue crabs ...all draft long. All draft (Lionel Richie voice). 

 

Meanwhile, play Martin & see what you’ve got. Case may bring a lawsuit against us, but assault by OL neglect...difficult to prove. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

The Finlay article here a little whole ago, his tweet was posted, is worth a read.  It's as if he reads this thread.  😀

 

 

Trent Williams wants out. Teams need him. Make the deal. 

 

A true visionary.

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The last time this happened, the team received Clinton Portis in return.  The two situations are not exactly the same, I know this, however Trent is still a solid asset to a team, especially a team that feels they can win now, but has a hole on their O-line.   If Trent is still adamant he doesn't want to be  here, then fine.......go out and find some good value and make his dream come true.

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26 minutes ago, volsmet said:

 

We have been looking for a guard & center for a decade. Losing Scherff for nothing is not something being discussed, but if you can get Dalton Risner on a rookie contract & invest the money in other areas, you come out ahead, by a decent bit, imo. 

 

Then again, we should be able to clear a decent bit of money soon enough. 

 

If Trent & Scherff each brought back firsts ... we replace Trent with a tackle who is both cheaper & actually at Redskins park, we replace Scherff with a first round guard that’s cheaper, & we can spend on upgrades elsewhere. We haven’t been particularly imposing with Trent & Scherff, I want the young, cheap talent & I want the money to spend in FA.

 

3 firsts in next year’s draft, what a time to be alive. Trade downs & blue crabs ...all draft long. All draft (Lionel Richie voice). 

 

Meanwhile, play Martin & see what you’ve got. Case may bring a lawsuit against us, but assault by OL neglect...difficult to prove. 

 

 

 

Unlike Trent, Scherff though isn't under contract in 2020 so you'd got to do the franchise him and trade drill.  That might not be as easy.   I'd wonder if they can get a first for Scherff between that point and a guard usually doesn't have the same trade value as a LT. 

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise

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38 minutes ago, volsmet said:

 

If Scherff was graded as a top 5 guard by the guys in the organization, then I’d go against my personal opinion & pay him. The middle of the line is the most important part of the game, if the people I trusted disagreed with me about how good he is, then I’d pay him ... the best way to get it right is to trust good people & get away from personal opinions that may be clouded by any number of issues. I’m not entirely certain that Scherff can’t be an elite player, but my feeling is that he isn’t going to be one & that would keep me from paying him elite money when I could save it and grab an elite talent in a loaded draft class; ... still, my conviction isn’t as strong as it was in moving on from Trent, particularly now that the young QB is here & priority 1 is protecting him. If we had an ES war room & had to make that decision, I’d not hesitate to trust you & others who had more conviction on the player.

 

The opportunity to get elite talent is rare, so I tend to lean towards the first & FA money, but ... at worst, Scherff is a good player & a piece you can trust to help give our young QB a chance to get the most out of the WRs/TEs & himself. 

 

Nothing would be worse than putting DH behind a line like Miami’s. DH is going to determine our next 5 years, I wouldn’t fight too hard against paying the proven guard ... even if my inclination was to go in another direction. We certainly can’t have DH getting hit like Luck/DW.

 

You typically don’t lose because you overpay good players. 

 

An odd thing to doubt.

 

How much more sense does it make to start a rookie with 1 decent OL than with 0? 20%?

I think it has more to do with cohesiveness of having three guys on the right side that have played together long enough to know how the other operates. You put together a patchwork line every week and there’s always going to be miscommunication.

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7 hours ago, KDawg said:

Tweets like that bother me to no end. 

 

People trying to save their jobs with an average 2019 season is the reason we're not trading Trent?

 

The part about the tweet that is the most apt is that it's been the same since 99. There's never a plan, just desperately trying to win as many games right now as possible to save jobs and hopefully sell tickets. 

 

The handling of the Trent situation is very on brand for Allen and for Snyder.

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Make a deal with Scherff and trade TW.

 

You're not getting a first for Scherff and we should have taken the 1st from NE for TW, if it was actually offered.  Let TW be their problem.  All this drama is poisoning the young talent that we have.

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36 minutes ago, volsmet said:

If Scherff was graded as a top 5 guard by the guys in the organization, then I’d go against my personal opinion & pay him. The middle of the line is the most important part of the game, if the people I trusted disagreed with me about how good he is, then I’d pay him ... the best way to get it right is to trust good people & get away from personal opinions that may be clouded by any number of issues. I’m not entirely certain that Scherff can’t be an elite player, but my feeling is that he isn’t going to be one & that would keep me from paying him elite money when I could save it and grab an elite talent in a loaded draft class; ... still, my conviction isn’t as strong as it was in moving on from Trent, particularly now that the young QB is here & priority 1 is protecting him. If we had an ES war room & had to make that decision, I’d not hesitate to trust you & others who had more conviction on the player.

 

The opportunity to get elite talent is rare, so I tend to lean towards the first & FA money, but ... at worst, Scherff is a good player & a piece you can trust to help give our young QB a chance to get the most out of the WRs/TEs & himself. 

 

Nothing would be worse than putting DH behind a line like Miami’s. DH is going to determine our next 5 years, I wouldn’t fight too hard against paying the proven guard ... even if my inclination was to go in another direction. We certainly can’t have DH getting hit like Luck/DW.

 

You typically don’t lose because you overpay good players. 

 

Let's use the PFF grading scale and put Scherff at ~77-78 for his career and say that he's a pretty good bet to play around that level over the life of the extension.  That's about the same level as Kevin Zeitler and it's actually better than Trai Turner and Gabe Jackson have been.  I'm comfortable being held hostage by the market for that because a big part of what you're paying for is stability and certainty.

 

I totally agree with you on the hidden value of the guard position.  It's a market inefficiency and we can conceivably spend 12-13 million AAV to keep Scherff whereas the Raiders just had to spend a contract that averages over 18 million in it's first two years to Trent Brown and he is a right tackle with one barely average season on his resume.  I'm looking at the construction of the Patriots and Steelers OLs and their best linemen are their three interior guys.  That tells me they're using the market inefficiencies in OL spending to keep enough elite OL talent in the building for cheap and still run dominant units.

 

Let's also be frank and admit that we have very few players worth spending all of this money we're about to have on, so we can afford some overpays until we can get enough drafted talent in the building to spend our cap on.  We should probably front-load an extension offer to Scherff.

 

Let's also say that you can realistically fix two spots on the line at one time, but more than that and you're just going to have too many breakdowns.  So an extension that keeps Scherff in the building gives us a better chance to fix the other problem areas on the line in the immediate future.

 

PLUS Scherff is versatile and probably capable of playing four spots.  Let's say we draft a tackle and a guard but we want to keep Flowers and Scherff around as a way to keep our five best linemen on the field.  We can kick Scherff out to tackle if need be.

 

My feeling is that, once we move on from Trent, we're going to need three new starters for our OL.  Unless Flowers falls apart, he's the second best OL on the team right now, but he's also not good enough that we can play weak players around him without it becoming a problem.  Unless Roullier shows a lot of growth this season, he is probably a back up caliber player.  Penn is a stop gap and Moses has cratered since 2016, both of those guys need immediate replacements.  We need to address the line piecemeal and focus on fixing two spots this summer and then hopefully putting the finishing pieces on in 2021.  Keeping Scherff is necessary to build that way.  Plus we need depth, which we may or may not have in any of Christian/Martin/Pierschbacher.

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1 hour ago, NoCalMike said:

The last time this happened, the team received Clinton Portis in return.  The two situations are not exactly the same, I know this, however Trent is still a solid asset to a team, especially a team that feels they can win now, but has a hole on their O-line.   If Trent is still adamant he doesn't want to be  here, then fine.......go out and find some good value and make his dream come true.

As you know we got the bad end of the deal with Portis.  Champ Bailey just made HOF.  I am afraid if the Prince of Darkness makes a trade it will be a bad trade that we will later regret.

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1 hour ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

The part about the tweet that is the most apt is that it's been the same since 99. There's never a plan, just desperately trying to win as many games right now as possible to save jobs and hopefully sell tickets. 

 

The handling of the Trent situation is very on brand for Allen and for Snyder.

 

if we were really desperately trying to win games then Penn's performance would have us trading Trent for players rather than either sitting him or sending him for picks

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The more I think about the Scherff situation, the less I understand why we didn't work out an extension with him before the start of the season.

 

It could be FO incompetence, that wouldn't strain credulity in any way.

 

But it could also be something medical.  What if we weren't sure if Scherff was the same guy after last season's injury, and we wanted him to prove that he was this season?

 

That's not necessarily the worst idea.  So far he hasn't looked slowed.  PFF has him at 75.7 through the first two games which isn't far off his 77.7 career average.

 

I don't know when the deadline to work out extensions is, but I feel like we need to go ahead and get this done.  If he's already around his average coming back from injury and despite the breakdowns on his side of the line, I don't really want to risk a contract year scenario where he significantly overplays his true level of performance and raises his cost.

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1 hour ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

The part about the tweet that is the most apt is that it's been the same since 99. There's never a plan, just desperately trying to win as many games right now as possible to save jobs and hopefully sell tickets. 

 

The handling of the Trent situation is very on brand for Allen and for Snyder.

+1.

Reading a bit of that piece, it's annoying for a writer to get it wrong from the start. The side benefit of refusing to trade Trent is the "sending of a message," it's not the actual intent. The actual intent, is to desperately find a way to save their own paychecks. There NEVER was any other intent other than job preservation. Trading Trent was highly, HIGHLY unlikely to ever land assets necessary to win now. There simply are/were too many holes. A Trent trade was a trade for the future, and Bruce isn't a complete moron, he's got the whole job preservation via short term quick fixes thing down, he just doesnt have anything else down. Nope, everything about Trent was trying to get him back in so the team could go 8-8 and he could blame the failure to make the playoffs on Trent not showing up and injuries. If he traded him, he'd be giving the benefits to his replacement instead of himself and no chance in hell he does that.  As mentioned innumerable times, that's why it's owner malfeasance to do what Leonsis did w/the Wiz, and what Snyder did/does with the Redskins. YOU NEVER EVER give a GM/F.O./H.C. the keys to transactions impacting your future if their job is on the line. NEVER. 

 

If you do that, you get bird brained idiocy of the highest order, whether it's the trading of your best young players to get out of the bad contracts you gave them and receiving nothing in return, saddling yourself with a cap killing contract to Wall, the Silverback debacle, or Bill O'Brien trading all future assets away for a middling OT/OG prospect. We're only getting what Snyder deserves because he's not learned an effing thing in 20 years. He's a classic idiot owner that puts butt kissing and quick fixes over short term pain for long term speculative gain. 

 

We may back into success in a few years, but it will be accident if it happens, not by design. Hopefully Snyder's got some ugly genetic background and some rapidly shortening telomeres.   

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4 minutes ago, carex said:

 

if we were really desperately trying to win games then Penn's performance would have us trading Trent for players rather than either sitting him or sending him for picks

Okay so somewhere between trying to win games and a pissing match.  Oh joy.

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The standoff between the Washington Redskins and their star left tackle Trent Williams is heading into the season’s third week, and it doesn’t appear as if it will end soon, according to multiple people with knowledge of the situation.

One person with knowledge of the Redskins’ thinking said that Williams is not expected to return this week ahead of Washington’s Monday night game against the Chicago Bears, despite recent media speculation that Williams might be willing to end his three-and-a-half month holdout as early as this month.

The person said the team continues to “wait out” Williams, believing that Williams will eventually tire of missing game checks and incurring the fines that have piled up since Williams began missing training camp practices. The person also said that Redskins Owner Daniel Snyder does not want to renegotiate Williams’s contract as a way to end the holdout.

Edited by Skinsinparadise

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https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/all/offensive-line/

 

It does look as if the FA OL Class is solid. Not too bad at all. That could help. We don't have our 2nd rounder unless we make a trade, so OL won't be fixable w/o some FA decisions. 

 

WR and TE look largely like garbage (especially after guys get extensions). 

 

We may need to use top picks on WR/TE, we don't have the answers in house. Maybe a trade down? Who knows, they definitely need to trade Trent just to get ammo for the draft. It's a fantastic QB/RB/WR draft, not great in terms of TE. 

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7 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/all/offensive-line/

 

It does look as if the FA OL Class is solid. Not too bad at all. That could help. We don't have our 2nd rounder unless we make a trade, so OL won't be fixable w/o some FA decisions. 

 

WR and TE look largely like garbage (especially after guys get extensions). 

 

We may need to use top picks on WR/TE, we don't have the answers in house. Maybe a trade down? Who knows, they definitely need to trade Trent just to get ammo for the draft. It's a fantastic QB/RB/WR draft, not great in terms of TE. 

 

unfortunately with it being the year the CBA ends every team gets a franchise and transition player so potentially take the top 62 free agents off as potential signings

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PFF scores for the first 2 games combined

 

1.  Scherff 75.7

2. Penn 67.3

3. Rouillier 61.9

4. Flowers 61

5.  Moses 54

 

Run blocking

1. Scherff 78.2

2. Penn 76.5

3. Flowers 59.1

4. Moses 55.8

5. Roullier 51.4

 

Pass blocking  

1. Roullier 80.4

2. Scherff 75.3

3. Penn 67.3

4. Flowers 59.8

5. Moses 55

 

the reason why the grades don't smoothly average out is in part because they deduct points for things such as penalties and include that on the aggregate score. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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24 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

The more I think about the Scherff situation, the less I understand why we didn't work out an extension with him before the start of the season.

 

It could be FO incompetence, that wouldn't strain credulity in any way.

Report: Brandon Scherff and Redskins 'far apart' on contract negotiations.

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/redskins/report-brandon-scherff-and-redskins-far-apart-contract-negotiations#targetText=Scherff is entering the 2019,part of his rookie deal.

 

He's as good as gone unless Bruce is fired or changes the way he conducts business.

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9 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

The more I think about the Scherff situation, the less I understand why we didn't work out an extension with him before the start of the season.

 

It could be FO incompetence, that wouldn't strain credulity in any way.

 

It's because Bruce's negotiating MO is to lowball guys beneath their market value and dangle the promise of instant guaranteed money. 

 

Preston Smith didn't get paid *crazy* money by GB at $13 M per/year.  We could've had him for cheaper than that if we had offered something reasonable after the 2017 season.  But it wouldn't have compared to the value of the ultra-team-friendly deal Kerrigan is currently on.  

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