The Impeachment Thread

[tshile]

So is now when we pop our popcorn?

[NoCalMike]

It is obvious why Turley was there, more clouding the room with smoke to water people's eyes.  Dude actually tried to suggest that there isn't enough information, yet the witnesses that could provide said information are being blocked from testifying which would be obstruction of the investigation itself, which Turley pretty much acknowledges and at the same time agrees that Trump is going through extraordinary measures to prevent,  but has no response for other than, "I, umm, well.....let's slow down"

 

Also, next time someone on committee says this is partisan, a list of every Republican so far that has said they find this troubling, or shocking, or sad, or whatever should be listed for the public record.  Then they can turn to the GOP side of the room and tell them to stop being cowards.

[tshile]

Pelosi might be the least charismatic federal politician we currently have

 

(that shouldn’t matter and doesn’t speak to her capabilities, just saying, and it does matter because we have a ton of people who only seem to determine credibility that way...)

[mistertim]

2 hours ago, Burgold said:

The Republican argument that the impeachment effort is not bipartisan is stupid. How many republicans have said on TV that what the President did was wrong? How many said it was disturbing?

 

The fact that none of them put their money where their mouth (or where their country is) is the only reason this isn't a bipartisan effort.

 

Funny thing is I think in a sense the impeachment effort actually is bipartisan as I'm sure there are lots of Rs in Congress who agree that the orange ****stick needs to go. Problem is they're all too cowardly to actually say it publicly, as you alluded to above. 

 

But yeah the argument itself is idiotic. But they know that, and they're counting on their base being idiots and eating it up straight out of the trough. Which they are. 

[tshile]

20 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Funny thing is I think in a sense the impeachment effort actually is bipartisan as I'm sure there are lots of Rs in Congress who agree that the orange ****stick needs to go

 

There is a part of me that wonders if he will be removed in the senate, either because of this or because strategically it's the GOP's only chance to salvage the 2020 election, or a mix of both.

 

Over the long term, there's a truism that people who throw everyone under the bus wind up with no defenders when it's their turn. Trump has a history of doing that. I wouldn't be surprised if, presented with a choice to get him out that has total finality with it, that we find out not as many people 'support' him as we believe.

 

I also wont be surprised of the consensus that the senate wont vote to remove turns true

 

[twa]

13 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

There is a part of me that wonders if he will be removed in the senate, either because of this or because strategically it's the GOP's only chance to salvage the 2020 election

 

 

Does not add up, the inverse is more likely.

[tshile]

2 minutes ago, twa said:

 

Does not add up, the inverse is more likely.

it only adds up if you believe trump's popularity has taken a huge hit, will continue to do so, and that his chances of winning do not look good

 

and if you care about the country.

 

but if you only care about your party, and are comfortable ignoring everything that has gone on for the last 4 years, or you support the gutting of our government and corruption within our leaders working with foreign entities that are (generally) anti-US, then sure. you're right. it doesn't add up to try to get out of the Trump business.

[Larry]

Oh, I think it's guaranteed that the day will come when everybody turns on him. 
 

Seriously, does anybody think that Donald Trump's management style encourages loyalty?  
 

I'm amazed that it hasn't happened yet. I mean, I could see the GOP unanimously getting behind generating cover stories, before the election. When anything counter-Trump could mean President Hillary. 
 

But for the last three years, when it's a choice between President Trump and President Pence?  
 

We all know they've got a play in the playbook called "he was never a Republican, anyway". Dunno why they haven't called it. 
 

It's also guaranteed that when they jettison him, there won't be a single Republican in Washington who was ever on his side. Ok, maybe some of his appointees get splattered. Rudy and Barr. But folks like Nunes and Jordan and Skippy?  Who, us?  We haven't actively conspired for years to help him get away with multiple felonies committed in full public view or anything like that!

[twa]

2 minutes ago, tshile said:

it only adds up if you believe trump's popularity has taken a huge hit, will continue to do so, and that his chances of winning do not look good

 

 

 

Do you think Trump was popular among R senators when elected?

 

The R's impeaching him at this time (w/o major new revelations) would not improve the odds of winning the presidency..

 

 

we can wish the world was different, but it ain't.

 

 

 

[tshile]

1 minute ago, twa said:

The R's impeaching him at this time (w/o major new revelations) would not improve the odds of winning the presidency..

 

I do not believe this is correct

 

And if the republican politicians actually support trump at this point, then they need to go too.

 

I've always hoped for a culling of the heard, but for different reasons. I'll accept getting rid of the traitors as a first pass. Then we can reevaluate where we are and see if more is needed.

 

You've decided to align with a group of people that appears to work with an Anti-United States mentality. You've continued your shtick in this way. You're never going to be able to walk that back. You'll forever have that as part of who you are. It's disgusting.

 

[Llevron]

Yall think there is a lane for someone like Susan Collins (only saying her name cause it seems to fit, I dont really have any ideas on who) could vote for impeachment and then run as a dem with promises of support from the dem side? I feel like if I was only worried about having a job after this next election, and I was in a place on the cusp of turning blue I could be persuaded to turn on him and convert to conservative leaning dem. But im not sure if thats realistic at all. 

[Larry]

Yeah, if they'd impeached Trump 2-3 years ago, then President Pence would be an incumbent President with a good economy right now. (And a whole lot of Trump screwups wouldn't have happened.). 
 

But impeach Trump now?  I don't see Pence getting any more votes than Trump. He'd be too linked to him. 
 

And that's even if Trump doesn't sling **** all over the White House, as they're dragging him out the door. 
 

I don't think impeaching Trump at this point improves the odds of an R President in 2020. 
 

Although, impeach Trump now, and a lot of down ticket Republicans don't have to choose whether to go through an election covering for him. 

[nonniey]

14 minutes ago, twa said:

 

Do you think Trump was popular among R senators when elected?

 

The R's impeaching him at this time (w/o major new revelations) would not improve the odds of winning the presidency..

 

......

 

 

 

No it wouldn't but at least we'd have decent leadership for a few months before it is returned to crap.

[mistertim]

45 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

There is a part of me that wonders if he will be removed in the senate, either because of this or because strategically it's the GOP's only chance to salvage the 2020 election, or a mix of both.

 

Over the long term, there's a truism that people who throw everyone under the bus wind up with no defenders when it's their turn. Trump has a history of doing that. I wouldn't be surprised if, presented with a choice to get him out that has total finality with it, that we find out not as many people 'support' him as we believe.

 

I also wont be surprised of the consensus that the senate wont vote to remove turns true

 

 

I read an interesting article on Politico a while back (https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/11/12/path-to-removing-donald-trump-from-office-229911) about how if there are enough Senators backing it (would only take a few), they could force that one of the rules adopted in the Senate for this impeachment process is that the vote is secret ballot. In one way I don't support that because I think people, especially elected representatives, should stand up and be counted and have the courage to express their opinion openly. But at the same time I could see it as a legit way to potentially get enough Republican Senators to vote to remove him that he'd be booted. I'm sure there are way more than 20 Rs in the Senate who'd love to see Trump out of office, but they're all terrified of his base and of the results of him targeting them. 

 

18 minutes ago, Larry said:

Oh, I think it's guaranteed that the day will come when everybody turns on him. 
 

Seriously, does anybody think that Donald Trump's management style encourages loyalty?  
 

I'm amazed that it hasn't happened yet. I mean, I could see the GOP unanimously getting behind generating cover stories, before the election. When anything counter-Trump could mean President Hillary. 
 

But for the last three years, when it's a choice between President Trump and President Pence?  
 

We all know they've got a play in the playbook called "he was never a Republican, anyway". Dunno why they haven't called it. 
 

It's also guaranteed that when they jettison him, there won't be a single Republican in Washington who was ever on his side. Ok, maybe some of his appointees get splattered. Rudy and Barr. But folks like Nunes and Jordan and Skippy?  Who, us?  We haven't actively conspired for years to help him get away with multiple felonies committed in full public view or anything like that!

 

It will be the day after he leaves office I'm guessing. 

 

BUT IMO that's not a foregone conclusion. His followers are not political followers, they are cult followers. The GOP is now the party of Trump and they're going to have a really hard time washing their hands of that because his followers will still be the same and they'll still want the same things. It's possible that the only real solution is for sensible conservatives to leave the GOP and create a new party, then let the current Republican party drown in the swamp of white nationalism and appeals to ignorance. 

 

But I'm also wondering how many people they'd get to come to their new party. The appeal of having Trump's rabid base behind you could be tempting to many politicians. 

[Renegade7]

22 minutes ago, Llevron said:

Yall think there is a lane for someone like Susan Collins (only saying her name cause it seems to fit, I dont really have any ideas on who) could vote for impeachment and then run as a dem with promises of support from the dem side? I feel like if I was only worried about having a job after this next election, and I was in a place on the cusp of turning blue I could be persuaded to turn on him and convert to conservative leaning dem. But im not sure if thats realistic at all. 

 

Small government vs Large government philosophy is not reconcilable by simply changing a party.  Shes better off running as an independent, any GOP member that simply cant do this GOP anymore should do that and claim to maintain conservative ideals without having to be part of the cult to do it.

 

It would destroy the GOP and keep someone like Collins from getting elected, but jus saying they are a dem, I wouldnt want them in the democratic party anyway. They have enough conservatives pretending to be centrist.  And running as a dem when they dont believe in their platform jus to get elected will be smelled out so fast it would kill her chance to jus run as an independent instead.

[Burgold]

Yeah, I think Collins had too many opportunities (like Kavanaugh) to stand up where she failed to. I think her "moderate" guise has been exposed as a fake. I don't think she's maverick enough to be able to pull off a switch of parties.

[nonniey]

1 hour ago, tshile said:

Pelosi might be the least charismatic federal politician we currently have

 

(that shouldn’t matter and doesn’t speak to her capabilities, just saying, and it does matter because we have a ton of people who only seem to determine credibility that way...)

Least charasimatic???   Are you forgetting Mitch McConnel? (BTW I like Mitch who is at least as capable and effective as Nancy)

[Larry]

9 minutes ago, mistertim said:

It will be the day after he leaves office I'm guessing. 

It's  what they did to W. (Remember him?  Used to be the worst President of our lifetimes?)

 

The day he left, all the things the voters had become angry about (like exploding the deficit, fighting with our intel agencies, appointing incompetent cabinet officials) became "oh, that was entirely W, and no real Republican had anything at all do do with any of it, and y'all should put us back in power, because those aren't the things that real Republicans do". 

[tshile]

6 minutes ago, nonniey said:

Least charasimatic???   Are you forgetting Mitch McConnel? (BTW I like Mitch who is at least as capable and effective as Nancy)

 

mcconnel at least comes off as confident with what he's doing

 

pelosi always looks like she's about to have a nervous breakdown when she speaks on important things. 

 

honestly i think her presser this morning was pretty bad. she was announcing a request for articles of impeachment and plan to move forward. i would think that qualifies as the most important presser she's ever given, announcing the last step in impeaching a president. she looked awful doing it.

[Larry]

8 minutes ago, nonniey said:

Least charasimatic???   Are you forgetting Mitch McConnel? (BTW I like Mitch who is at least as capable and effective as Nancy)

I note you didn't list "ethical". Although it's possible he's as ethical as Nancy, too. 
 

But I certainly agree with you. The guy is efficient. Terrifyingly so. 
 

I'm really glad Trump isn't as competent as he is. 

[mistertim]

4 minutes ago, Larry said:

It's  what they did to W. (Remember him?  Used to be the worst President of our lifetimes?)

 

The day he left, all the things the voters had become angry about (like exploding the deficit, fighting with our intel agencies, appointing incompetent cabinet officials) became "oh, that was entirely W, and no real Republican had anything at all do do with any of it, and y'all should put us back in power, because those aren't the things that real Republicans do". 

 

That's true but Trump and his followers are a completely different species than W and his. W was a ****ty president but he was still basically mainstream Republican orthodoxy. He had the following of Republican voters for ideological reasons (or basically just because there was an R after his name). Trump's base is totally different...they're following him, not his policies or his ideology (insofar as he actually has any policy or core ideology besides whatever is best for himself) or even the letter after his name. It's a 100% cult of personality. If he suddenly decided to start his own party and leave the GOP, they'd all immediately switch to it and leave the Republican party without a second thought. 

 

That's the sort of following I could see continuing to haunt the GOP long after Trump is out of office. His followers will never change, they make up a large part of the Republican base now, and they will continue into the future to demand that all of their future candidates comply with Trumpism or they will refuse to vote for them. 

[Larry]

17 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

That's true but Trump and his followers are a completely different species than W and his. W was a ****ty president but he was still basically mainstream Republican orthodoxy. He had the following of Republican voters for ideological reasons (or basically just because there was an R after his name). Trump's base is totally different...they're following him, not his policies or his ideology (insofar as he actually has any policy or core ideology besides whatever is best for himself) or even the letter after his name. It's a 100% cult of personality. If he suddenly decided to start his own party and leave the GOP, they'd all immediately switch to it and leave the Republican party without a second thought. 

 

That's the sort of following I could see continuing to haunt the GOP long after Trump is out of office. His followers will never change, they make up a large part of the Republican base now, and they will continue into the future to demand that all of their future candidates comply with Trumpism or they will refuse to vote for them. 

How much of that is Trump?  And how much is Fox News?  
 

If Trump leaves the GOP, and Fox and the rest of the machine say "good riddance", how many follow Trump?  
 

Although I do remember early in his term, Trump did something stupid or anti-American or some such. Fox dumped on him for it. And a lot of  viewers left Fox and headed to Breitbart. It's possible that they're more attached to Trump than to Fox. 

[NoCalMike]

8 minutes ago, Larry said:

How much of that is Trump?  And how much is Fox News?  
 

If Trump leaves the GOP, and Fox and the rest of the machine say "good riddance", how many follow Trump?  

 

Yeah I think you nailed it.  The right-wing media did not want Trump, if they could go back in time they'd probably do all they could to make sure he is buried early in the primary process, but they viewed him as much of a joke early on as liberals did, but they had to play coy about it the more he rose in the polls.  All one needs to do is go to youtube and look up what the GOP members were saying about Trump prior to it becoming more and more likely he would win the nomination.   Behind closed doors they all know and say he is garbage, but they view saying it publicly as a bad career move right now. 

 

Once Trump won the nomination (perhaps even a little before) the 180 revisionist opinions began on Trump.  They had to go all in in order to help defeat Hillary, and it has been that way ever since he won the election.  It is 100% disingenuous but that is how it is.  

[Burgold]

8 minutes ago, Larry said:

How much of that is Trump?  And how much is Fox News?  
 

If Trump leaves the GOP, and Fox and the rest of the machine say "good riddance", how many follow Trump?  

I've heard that some of the right are getting frustrated with FOX for not being right-enough. They want FOX to go full Alex Jones. Several of their shows probably are there already.

[No Excuses]

7 minutes ago, Larry said:

If Trump leaves the GOP, and Fox and the rest of the machine say "good riddance", how many follow Trump?  

 

I don't think anyone knows the answer to this. My belief is that the cult of Trump will live beyond his presidency and Fox would be in more trouble if they turn on him, than the other way around.