bulldog Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Marvin Lewis took over a moribund team in Cincinnati and fans that hadn't seen a winner since George W. Bush's father was in office. And yet less than a year later the Bengals are 8-6 and tied for first place in their division. Yes, a mediocre division perhaps but the distance that the team has travelled in the last 12 months is remarkable. Let's remember that when Lewis came in the team's best defensive player, linebacker Takeo Spikes, stated his desire to leave town before even giving ML a chance to turn things around. 1,000 yard running back Corey Dillon also had issues with the team's management and imploded during the season, causing him to be benched. Through all this, Lewis has managed to find a runner in Rudi Johnson, a passer in Jon Kitna and resurrected wide receivers to keep his team in games while he works to rebuild an admittedly weak defense. Not even all the way through Year 1 and already a team with a winning record (pending the outcome of the last two games). You don't see players (other than Dillon) talking in the media about the club and in Dillon's case his reward was being worked OUT of the offense. Lewis was not going to abide a player ripping him in the press and then being rewarded by retaining his starting job when he came back from injury. Now, Dillon looks like an idiot for pressing so hard for a trade or his release. Wouldn't it be ironic if he left the Bengals at the end of the year and ended up next season on a team that wins FEWER games? :laugh: And Spurrier....??? Well, he wasn't very gracious about it, but Lewis made it be known that he didn't think the Washington program was set on a firm foundation under Mr. Gator. And now in retrospect it appears he might just have been correct after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius J. Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 funny what talent allows a good coach to do.... -DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Originally posted by DrunkenBoxer funny what talent allows a good coach to do.... -DB Wake the fuvk up man. http://www.bengals.com/team/depthchart.asp Start naming the Bengals players that you'd take over our own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted December 15, 2003 Author Share Posted December 15, 2003 the fact remains folks that the Redskins have been working on their puzzle longer and have spent a lot more money to try and shortcut the curve by bringing in veteran free agents. and even that approach has backfired as the club went from 8-8 in 2001 to 5-9 in 2003. this club is going to finish 3 games worse off than Marty's team in 2001 and yet there are people who are still hoping that Spurrier is miraculously going to find himself in the offseason for Year 3? didn't we go down this road with Norv? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Every time you see Spurrier on the sidelines with that stupid look on his face... just remind yourself he's the highest paid coach in the NFL. And we're paying him to learn on the job. And he's shown to be a very slow learner. What a friggin mess this is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius J. Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Let me start by naming the player who plays the single most underated position in professional football: John Kitna You put adequate QB play in our offense, and we'd have one or two more wins. Maybe ramsey gets to that point eventually. Then there's the offensive line. Steinbach to begin with, and he's just a rookie. They may not be big name players, but I'd switch out any one of ours for any one of thiers (at leastany one that we fielded today) Rudi Johnson can obviously play if he put up what 200 yds today? Maybe he's not as injury prone as canidate. If he is, then he might be a canidate clone. I don't know cause I don't watch. Peter Warrick. Any day and twice on sunday over gardner. I'll take coles over chad though, but its close. At best we'll call that a draw. So what about at tight end? I can guarantee that reggie kelley beats out flem. and that's just on offense. stop looking at the names and look at the play. We've had four coaches with some of these guys and they still don't get it. At some point you gotta say enough is enough. -DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redblazer00 Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Spurrier is a JOKE at the NFL level. Point stated and proven over the last 2 years. You would think after one season you would find a way to come out and improve not totally fall apart. If Spurrier comes back its opening the door to the dame thing we had with Norv Turner and I can't believe we are willing to go throught that mess again. NORV wasn't worth it nor is SPURRIER! Man oh man with the talent we have on offense/defense/ and special teams? How can a coach manage to slide down from a 7-9 record well ladies and gentlemen Spurrier has done it. I'm hoping when Snyder jumped in his car the other day! he finished his sentence with a laugh. "Absolutely NOT!" We can't afford to go into another season with the leagues worse coach. I can come up with alot of names Jimmie Johnson, Lovie Smith, and Dennis Green I would rather turn the team over to. I'm sure with enough money you could talk Johnson into coaching again. We are in dire need of a Head Coach not a fake! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius J. Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 again with the talent..... who exactly has this mysterious talent? Jansen and thomas sure look talented on thier backsides..... Oh you meant our injured merry go round at running back..... oh, you meant our all star defensive line? what are you talking about? WHERE IS THE TALENT? i just don't see it on the field.............. -DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sashae Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 John Hall is pretty good when we get him within 35 yards of the endzone or so -- unfortunately we couldn't even do THAT today. Cincy's corners are abominable as well. Brian Simmons at LB is unbelivably underrated for them -- good player. -s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Originally posted by DrunkenBoxer stop looking at the names and look at the play. We've had four coaches with some of these guys and they still don't get it. At some point you gotta say enough is enough. -DB The fact that you'd choose Warrick over Gardener "Any day and twice on sunday" speaks volumes. Warrick: http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187401 Gardner: http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235213 You are not going to convince me you would have taken Rudi Johnson over Ladell Betts or Trung Canidate prior to the 2003 season. I don't know cause I don't watch. And yet you have an opinion. So what about at tight end? I can guarantee that reggie kelley beats out flem. Reggie Kelly: http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/133334 Zeron Flemister: http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/192169 Are we really going to argue over 30+ yards in difference? Don't attach yourself to a sinking ship out of pride. The trademark of a wise man is the ability to learn. Don't be so stubborn to ignore the truth out of spite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius J. Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 you're right. John Hall is a legitimate talent on this team. Great player. -DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius J. Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Die Hard, you might be right about warrick, so lets just say our recievers are a push. Warrick has outperformed gardner this year, but gardner was a legitimate number 1 last year, but has seriously regressed this year. I think gardner has confidence issues and can't take not being a number one guy. If I am right, it doesn't bode well for his future. We have one hit wonders galore in the backfield. I think it's really about the offensive line. In other words, I think runningback is the most overated position in football. Thier line has kicked ours in the buttocks. You can't dispute that thier QB play has been light years ahead of ours. So anywhere it counts they are ahead by a long shot except at reciever where they are a push. (If I were in a better mood I might actually give us the edge here, but the QB and O-line play has been poor enough that it tips it back in spades) And as for that 30+ yards comment, when its a factor of 2, yeah I'd say we got the toast end of the stick on that one. -DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted December 15, 2003 Author Share Posted December 15, 2003 well, DB, did you ever think that pro bowlers such as Davis, Jansen and Samuels that were high producers in a run oriented system, just are not cut out for an offense where you throw the ball 35 times a game? how about Ramsey? Think he wouldn't be more productive in a system where he had a Davis to run for 1,400 yards while he used play action and the downfield skills of Coles and the other receivers on routes that he throws well? part of a player's productivity has to do with his use. Spurrier is alone among coaches I see that forces players to fit a prefab system and takes no account of what they do well or don't do well and modify accordingly. Vermeil started off as a guy that ran in Philly and in St. Louis the Rams threw to win. He changed, adapted to the personnel. Parcells ran in NY, but he threw in NE. Now he is back to running again because his qb is young and prone to mistakes. Gibbs came in with the Coryell offense and a year later had installed a novel one-back, two-tight end offense that took the NFL 2 or 3 years to figure out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Originally posted by DrunkenBoxer you're right. John Hall is a legitimate talent on this team. Great player. -DB And yet would you believe the Bengals employ a better kicker than ours? At least statistically this season: Shayne Graham: http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/289074 19-21 in FG attempts (90.5%) and perfect on extra points John Hall: http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1705 24-30 in FG attempts (80%) and 1 missed extra point. The one Redskins player you'd take... and you got it wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius J. Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Die Hard, you're right, he is better, still, hall is a great player. I was just responding to sashae. I don't think hall deserves any of the blame right now, do you? -DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sashae Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Lies, damn lies, and statistics. *shakes fist* I still like John Hall -s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted December 15, 2003 Author Share Posted December 15, 2003 stats for kickers are skewed. Hall has a strong leg so he gets a fair share of 49, 50, 51 yard attempts while a number of other kickers with more limited range aren't asked to attemtp the lower percentage stuff as coaches opt to go for the first down or punt in those situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius J. Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 bulldog, I can see why you would be angry at snyder for getting rid of marty. Davis = no coles and no line so not sure where you get this 1400 number from. Personel wise we have not been capable of that since marty left, our o-line has gone to hell in a basket. Maybe its helton's fault, but maybe not. Our line last year wasn't capable of anything, and jansen has been beat up on running plays this year too. I don't have the answers, I just don't think you guys are looking deep enough. -DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Originally posted by DrunkenBoxer Die Hard, I don't think hall deserves any of the blame right now, do you? -DB Absolutely not. The offense has been putrid. The defense has fared much better than the offense this season. Though that's not saying much either. When a head coach scratches his head during post-game press conferences and tells you he doesn't know where the problem lies... you listen to him. He ain't lying. When a head coach goes so far as to say he's been NFLized - he has listened and adjusted because of external influences - it should have been a dead giveaway. What the heck does everyone need? A personal phone call from the OBC himself admitting he's in over his head? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius J. Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Yet when parcells makes those same comments..... (referring to the not knowing what went wrong not the NFLized part) -DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sashae Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 The thing is Spurrier doesn't have any clue what went wrong -- and he NEVER SEEMS TO. Parcells is more of the "I know damn well what went wrong and his ass is getting cut Monday but I'm not telling you media clowns about it" type. -s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted December 15, 2003 Author Share Posted December 15, 2003 well, let's see. Davis ran for 1,300 plus yards in '99, '00 and '01 and is doing so again in '03 in Carolina. The only year he hasn't produced is 2002, the year he spent with Spurrier So, that's where I get the 1,400 yards from. As far as the line goes, the Redskins even down to their #3 option at tailback were in position to run for 150 yards against Dallas on a bad field and Spurrier instead chose to have Hasselbeck repeatedly throw on third downs, including third and short. The results there speak for themselves. This line can run block, it has gotten decent results against some good defenses in spurts the problem has been sticking to it in the second half and allowing the pounding on the defense take its toll. As soon as the Redskins break off a long run or two, Spurrier is too ready to press the launch button to then take a big shot downfield. He shows a lack of patience. Today, Parcells was starting a qb who has had several poor outings and the weather was bad. So the Cowboys ran the ball and punted when necessary, content to play the field position battle and let the Redskins hang themselves. And the Redskins obliged by turning the ball over repeatedly. Funny how the Bengals were turning the ball over last year and playing some stupid football and this year they are instead scoring more points and winning football games while limiting mistakes. I guess that is all coincidence and that Spurrier's travails in DC are just bad luck and bad timing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius J. Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 bulldog, did you watch the giants game? what was the difference between this game and the giants game? -DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Don't ever compare Parcells and Spurrier again. Contrast if you'd like. But never compare. We've just lost 2 games to the Cowboys under Parcells in the first year of that program. We have the exact opposite record. You don't get to 3 Super Bowls without knowing what works and what doesn't. Cheering for Spurrier is like working for a company for 20 years and watching it grow into a big family.... only to hire a top grad-student fresh out of school as your manager making 10x your salary... only to have him gradually tear apart the team atmosphere and reduce the productively of your department significantly. Why do you cheer for that guy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius J. Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 I actually do cheer for that guy because it is more fun to see it rebuilt, but, you're right there are important differences between spurrier and parcells. One is a winner, and one is a loser. But, spurrier at press conferences isn't the problem. one more thing. Parcells came into a team with a QB who can complete a pass before he gets sacked and a VERY good defense. Not to mention, a little less pressure, and a team filled with players who didn't neccesarily think they were the end all players on thier side of the field. -DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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