2020 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[philibusters]

1 hour ago, LaRonDontLikeUgly said:

As a huge Game****s fan, I told everyone I knew that Clowney would disappoint in the NFL.  (He’s actually done more than I thought he would.) The guy hates to work and that’s been well-documented.  

 

Chase Young is the complete opposite and I’ve had some really in-depth conversations with his former high schools coaches about the type of guy he is.  If he falls to #2, you grab him and don’t think twice!

 

How Clowney handled his junior season at South Carolina was probably an indication that he was not going to be 100% into football and being the best player he could be.  In terms of raw talent, Clowney is up there and in the same tier as Young, but motivation goes a long way towards being a great player.

[Skinsinparadise]

16 minutes ago, philibusters said:

 

How Clowney handled his junior season at South Carolina was probably an indication that he was not going to be 100% into football and being the best player he could be.  In terms of raw talent, Clowney is up there and in the same tier as Young, but motivation goes a long way towards being a great player.

 

I'd add Young this season had more sacks than Clowney in his last two combined in college.   Young has almost twice the number of forced fumbles versus the last 2 combined for Clowney in school.   I think the Bosa brothers (same school) is the better comparison.

 

 

2.

 

Redskins

Chase Young

EDGE, Ohio State

Well, well, well, what do we have here? For a while now the New York Giants were the ones in possession of a very coveted second-overall pick. But after their most recent win over the Washington Redskins, that is no longer the case.

The Redskins have many needs along the trenches. I would say their need at offensive tackle is more dire than their need at edge rusher. However, the gap in talent between Chase Young and any offensive tackles in this class makes up the difference for Young to be the pick.

[Skinsinparadise]

5 hours ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

If Young declares and is perceived throughout the league as an elite generational talent, he will go #1 to the Bengals. 

 

They will then use #33 and a 2021 1st, plus further picks if needed, to move back up in this upcoming draft for a QB in the mid first round.

 

Don't know.  You got some comparing Burrow to Andrew Luck.  I'd be surprised if Cincy goes with a pass rusher.  As much as I love Young, if I were the Bengals, I'd take Burrow.  I bet though we will get the typical grandstanding and leaks and rumors about that #1 pick with the Bengals supposedly undecided what they are going to do.  Supposedly the NFL encourages some mystery in the team that picks first plus in case they get a big haul offer you want to show you aren't locked on.  But I bet in the end they take Burrow.

 

And if they don't that's fine, too.  We'd get a haul in a trade back.  Assuming we lose to Dallas. 

 

 

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/chase-young-expected-to-enter-2020-nfl-draft-after-buckeyes-title-chase-is-over/

Chase Young expected to enter 2020 NFL Draft after Buckeyes' title chase is over

 

 

[philibusters]

Young definitely had a better college career than Clowney, but so have about a dozen other Edges in the past 6 year.  Clowney's hype was focused on his potential and physical talent.  6'5.5 and 266 pounds at the combine, ran a 4.53 at the combine, plus had ridiculously long arms.  It was like the perfect model Edge came down from heaven.  That said, Clowney can be a little bit stiff, but more importantly he is not motivated to be the best Edge in the league.  If Clowney had JJ Watt's motivation level we would probably be talking about one of the three best defensive players in the league (with Aaron Donald and Khalil Mack).  I would say that in terms of hype, Young has the most hype of any defensive player since Clowney.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[philibusters]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Don't know.  You got some comparing Burrow to Andrew Luck.  I'd be surprised if Cincy goes with a pass rusher.  As much as I love Young, if I were the Bengals, I'd take Burrow.  I bet though we will get the typical grandstanding and leaks and rumors about that #1 pick with the Bengals supposedly undecided what they are going to do.  Supposedly the NFL encourages some mystery in the team that picks first plus in case they get a big haul offer you want to show you aren't locked on.  But I bet in the end they take Burrow.

 

 

 

 

Burrow is a good QB, but I don't see him in the Andrew Luck category.    He is a fifth year QB who comes with some polish, but I don't feel his physical tools are anywhere in the class Andrew Luck.  The floor on Burrow may be solid as he comes in with some polish (partially cause he is a 5th year college player--usually the top prospects leave after 3 years--when Haskins arrived at Ohio St. , Burrow had already been there a year), but I don't see a really high ceiling.   A good case scenario for Burrow might be to be the next Eli Manning or something like that.

[wtfskins]

2 hours ago, philibusters said:

I feel like the hype of Chase Young is getting a little over the top.  He is the most hyped prospect since Clowney six years ago in 2014.

 

Do people think Clowney has lived up to his hype?  He was the most hyped defensive player of the past 30 years at 6'5.5 265 pounds running a 4.53 at the combine and having ridiculously long arms.   He made 3 pro bowls in his first 5 years, but he is not a top 5 defensive player in the league and not even the best Edge in his class (Khalil Mack is).    I feel like all the hype is not a good thing because it creates a scenario where Young has a very nice career much like Clowney but people are disappointed.   And its very possibe Young has a career like Clowney.  College is a different game from the NFL.

Sorry bro this guy is legit better than the Bosa brothers.  Like a Khalil Mack or von Miller. 

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, philibusters said:

Young definitely had a better college career than Clowney, but so have about a dozen other Edges in the past 6 year.  Clowney's hype was focused on his potential and physical talent.  6'5.5 and 266 pounds at the combine, ran a 4.53 at the combine, plus had ridiculously long arms.  It was like the perfect model Edge came down from heaven.  That said, Clowney can be a little bit stiff, but more importantly he is not motivated to be the best Edge in the league.  If Clowney had JJ Watt's motivation level we would probably be talking about one of the three best defensive players in the league (with Aaron Donald and Khalil Mack).  I would say that in terms of hype, Young has the most hype of any defensive player since Clowney.

 

I'd agree that the hype is similar.  I am not going to town on arguing this because I don't want to jinx this.  We could still beat Dallas -- hopefully we don't.    It's so rare for this team to get a national star with the football world being jealous (save RG3 in 2012) that it seems almost a bit surreal that it will even go down where something will get in the way. 

 

Just like any prospect for me, I fall for them if I fall for how they look when i watch them.   And if I recall it was aorund late October when I just sat down and just zoned in on Chase play after play in some games.   And I was smitten.  I wasn't predisposed to draft him before that.  But forget his 16.5 sacks, 6 FF, etc.  The dude is disruptive play after play after play.  it's not like Kerrigan where you see it in flashes and then he disappears.  

 

Cooley, who isn't always right, but often is, maybe went too far in his take which is Chase is the best player he's seen this year in football period sans Lamar Jackson because he effects almost every play.

 

But that's it, I am not debating it anymore.  I'll wait to see if we are still in position to get him after next Sunday. 

6 minutes ago, philibusters said:

 

Burrow is a good QB, but I don't see him in the Andrew Luck category.    He is a fifth year QB who comes with some polish, but I don't feel his physical tools are anywhere in the class Andrew Luck.  The floor on Burrow may be solid as he comes in with some polish (partially cause he is a 5th year college player--usually the top prospects leave after 3 years--when Haskins arrived at Ohio St. , Burrow had already been there a year), but I don't see a really high ceiling.   A good case scenario for Burrow might be to be the next Eli Manning or something like that.

 

Maybe you are right.  I've just noticed a lot of draft geeks disagree with you on this.  I haven't studied Burrow to the extent to weigh in myself.  

[Est.1974]

I can see Burrow having a bit of a downturn on his draft hype. Although I haven't got into the draft that much yet and need to start looking. 

 

Some great trade back scenarios with the Jags, Raiders and even Dolphins.

 

My outsider for a QB trade up is the Chargers. 

[mhd24]

Cinci is going to take Burrow.  Guy is from Ohio and they already burned their bride with Dalton.  It makes far too much sense.  If not, we can trade down to Miami or LA to take Burrow.

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

I can see Burrow having a bit of a downturn on his draft hype. Although I haven't got into the draft that much yet and need to start looking. 

 

Some great trade back scenarios with the Jags, Raiders and even Dolphins.

 

My outsider for a QB trade up is the Chargers. 

 

As for Burrow it will be interesting.  His intangibles supposedly are insane so I expect he kills the interview process at the combine.  the wild card with him from what I can tell is arm strength. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Warhead36]

There is zero chance the Bengals pass on Burrow. Zilch. Zippo. You never pass up on franchise QB talents, never ever ever.

 

We're getting Young unless we do something catastrophically stupid. Snyder/Allen are dumb but even they can't be this dumb. Its literally the definition of no brainer.

[Voice_of_Reason]

You know what's fascinating?  In a year which has a whole bunch of QBs coming out, there aren't a lot of teams who are ABSOLUTELY going to pick a QB.  Most of the complete suck teams just took a guy.   The only 3 who are really locks for a QB are the Bengals Dolphins and Jags.  The Raiders might move on from Carr. The other group are the teams with really old QBs who want one, like the Steelers, maybe the Chargers, possibly (to groom) the Patriots and Saints.  

 

1. Cincy - Burrow

2. 'SKins - Not QB

3. Detroit - Not QB, have Stafford

4. Giants - Not QB, just drafted Jones

5. Dolphins - Tua

6. Jags - ?

7. Chargers  - Have Rivers

8. Panthers - Have Cam

9. Cardinals - Just picked Murray

10. Jets - Just picked Darnold

11. Broncos - Just picked Lock

...

 

The absolutely best scenario for the 'Skins would be if Tua proves fully healthy, and the Raiders or Jags REALLY want him and think they have to get up to #2 ahead of the Dolphins.  In which case, the Dolphins might want to trade up to make sure that didn't happen.  

 

Let's say you could get 2 of the Dolphin's picks to move up to 2, and a second and maybe something next year, and you're sitting at 5.  Young goes off he board, most likely to Detroit, but you have 2 1's this year, get the 2nd back  Is that worth it?  

 

I would think yes.  The Raiders would have to package a whole lot more to move up to #2 because both of their picks are farther back.  

 

I don't think a team would be willing to offer as much to get up the board to select Young.  It's possible, but doubtful. However if a QB needy team wants to trade up to get Tua, and they're willing to offer a ton, I wouldn't be stuck on Young, even though he's an outstanding prospect.  They need to rebuild the entire secondary and at least 2 pieces of the OL.  Maybe 3 or 4 depending on what happens with Trent, Scherrf, and Flowers.  More picks can help that.  

 

This would be the first time in years when the 'Skins actually would have draft leverage where they could make some moves. Of course, the key to all of this is getting somebody who knows stuff to run the FO.  But that's a given no matter what.  

[Going Commando]

40 minutes ago, philibusters said:

 

Burrow is a good QB, but I don't see him in the Andrew Luck category.    He is a fifth year QB who comes with some polish, but I don't feel his physical tools are anywhere in the class Andrew Luck.  The floor on Burrow may be solid as he comes in with some polish (partially cause he is a 5th year college player--usually the top prospects leave after 3 years--when Haskins arrived at Ohio St. , Burrow had already been there a year), but I don't see a really high ceiling.   A good case scenario for Burrow might be to be the next Eli Manning or something like that.

 

The arm is good but not high end, but the rest of Burrow's physical tools are unusually good.  He was an all state point guard for basketball in High School.    He's very coordinated for how tall he is, and very quick.  It translates to exceptional pocket movement skills and accuracy throwing on the move as well as scrambling ability.  He's not Kyler Murray or Russell Wilson, but he'll be a better athlete at the position than the majority of the league.

 

But his best traits are his instincts and toughness.  His season was the most fearless quarterbacking that I've seen since the year RGIII won the Heisman.  Just next level playmaking in the face of the rush, never a moment where he's not reading downfield and attacking, doing whatever he needed to do to get the ball downfield.  Burrow's got an aura of leadership, focus, and toughness that will definitely translate well to the NFL.

 

I don't think we've really come to appreciate how astonishing his transformation from last year to this year has been.  It's not a lightbulb turning on, it's like when Neo starts seeing the green source code for the Matrix.  He became a master quarterback in an offseason and it can't just be down to Joe Brady showing up.  Maybe he sold his soul to the devil for quarterback skills.  Or got a prescription for Adderall.  Something.

 

He was clearly the best player in college football this year and if it weren't for Tua, who I think is a savant with even better skills than Russell Wilson and Baker Mayfield, I would have him as the #1 player in the class.  This is a heck of a year to be picking top three, particularly if you need a QB.

[JamesMadisonSkins]

@Voice of Reason in your scenario, I would ask Miami for #5, #16 and a 2nd. Miami gets Tua, and Young would go to Detroit to ensure the Giants don't get him.

1. Cincy - Burrow

2. Miami - Tua

3. Detroit - Young

4. Giants - Epenesa

5. Skins - Thomas

 

Then at #16 I am going BPA, but if there's a top flight WR there it would be hard to pass up

 

Here's my off-season wish list. And it hinges on essentially 3 critical pieces ...

1. Do you have a competent GM (aka not Bruce)

2. If Bruce is gone, will Trent come back (and be extended?)

3. Will new DC change the defense to a 4-3?

 

1. Re-sign Trent to a 4 year extension

2. Re-Sign Scherff

3. Cut Reed, Norman

4. Trade Kerrigan to the Patriots for a 4th or 5th round pick (Win win, let Ryan go win)

 

Free Agency:

1. Sign either Byron Jones, James Bradberry or Marcus Peters

2. SIgn either Austin Hooper, Hunter Henry or Eric Ebron (in order)

 

Draft:

1. Take Chase Young, make the defense elite

2. With mid-rounders (3, 4, 4, 5) go BPA but try to land a TE and WR and a 4-3 OLB

 

I think that would set the team up fairly well going forward. Defense would be stacked and in the 4-3 with a competent DC could be something we hoped it would be this year.

 

Offense would have a solidified OL and you add weapons at TE and continue to infuse youth at WR.

 

[Koolblue13]

9 hours ago, BleedBNG said:

My biggest reason for us picking Young at #2... so that the Giants don't get him.

Same here. They get a generational rusher and we draft an overrated tackle and spend 10 years watching Haskins slowly break down.

[Mr. Sinister]

19 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

The arm is good but not high end, but the rest of Burrow's physical tools are unusually good.  He was an all state point guard for basketball in High School.    He's very coordinated for how tall he is, and very quick.  It translates to exceptional pocket movement skills and accuracy throwing on the move as well as scrambling ability.  He's not Kyler Murray or Russell Wilson, but he'll be a better athlete at the position than the majority of the league.

 

But his best traits are his instincts and toughness.  His season was the most fearless quarterbacking that I've seen since the year RGIII won the Heisman.  Just next level playmaking in the face of the rush, never a moment where he's not reading downfield and attacking, doing whatever he needed to do to get the ball downfield.  Burrow's got an aura of leadership, focus, and toughness that will definitely translate well to the NFL.

 

I don't think we've really come to appreciate how astonishing his transformation from last year to this year has been.  It's not a lightbulb turning on, it's like when Neo starts seeing the green source code for the Matrix.  He became a master quarterback in an offseason and it can't just be down to Joe Brady showing up.  Maybe he sold his soul to the devil for quarterback skills.  Or got a prescription for Adderall.  Something.

 

He was clearly the best player in college football this year and if it weren't for Tua, who I think is a savant with even better skills than Russell Wilson and Baker Mayfield, I would have him as the #1 player in the class.  This is a heck of a year to be picking top three, particularly if you need a QB.

 

He made a demon deal

[JamesMadisonSkins]

I don't expect all of these to happen, but here's what the cap situation could look like.

Trade Trent, Cut Norman, Cut Reed, Cut Kerrigan, June 1st cut Richardson

Cap Space + Cap Rollover from 2019: $98.4 million

 

That would be ... more than enough to overpay a CB1 and TE1 and re-sign Scherff with massive amounts of money to spare. I would also front-load those contracts as much as possible in order to maintain cap flexibility in the years to come so that you can work to re-sign your home-grown talent.

I am hoping that Trent ends up staying and getting extended or something. At #2 we would be dumb not to draft Chase, and without Trent (even if we got a 2nd rounder for him), there's very few immediate impact OTs we could add that would help protected Haskins.

[JamesMadisonSkins]

*EDIT: I know this is the draft thread, but I am treating this as an off-season thread right now since it all leads to how we utilize the 2nd pick.

 

Screwed around with OvertheCap to frame up what the Cap situation could be ...

Cutting Norman, Reed and Richardson (June1)

 

1. Extend Trent to a deal that covers 4 years and $68 million

2. Re-sign Scherff to a 5 year and $80 million deal

3. Re-Sign Thompson to a 3 year and $15 million deal

4. Extend Kerrigan to a deal that covers 4 years and $40 million

5. Re-Sign Nate Orchard to a deal of 3 years and $9 million total

 

(by the way, I was pretty aggressive with those offers to see where it got us)

 

There would still be $42 million in cap space going into Free Agency and the draft.

Since those moves would basically only expose 2 obvious holes (TE and CB1) ... that's plenty of $$ to throw at 2 guys and roll into the draft to go BPA

 

Thoughts:

- Should Bruce go, I would be willing to pay Trent through his Age 34 season at market rate to protect Haskins

- Kerrigan had a bad year and may not be a great fit to the 4-3 should we move that way, but the team clearly covets him as a lifer and a "market rate" extension to keep him around as a situation pass-rusher (very overpaid but whatever) ... gives you some depth and flexibility on defense adding Young to Sweat Kerrigan Anderson and ...

- Nate Orchard ... probably way overpaid but he's proven he's worth keeping around

- Scherff may want no part of sticking around (would you blame him?) but if Bruce is gone, throw the bank at this guy and lock down the OL

- Thompson is way overpaid but whatever. While he's injury prone, getting him back would help bridge the gap to Guice and Love

 

Moses becomes a cap causalty after 2020, so you hope you can get Christian up to speed as his replacement by then or you tap back into the well in the 2021 draft, go OT early, have them play RT and then slide them to LT once Trent's deal is up in 2023.

[skinny21]

Considering we aren’t a lock for #2 yet, I’m risking a big time jinx here, but...

I would be over the moon to have Miami wind up #3 and offer us a pick(s) to trade.  Landing Young and a top tackle would be absolutely unbelievable luck for us.  Of course, you’d have to be sure they were taking Tua...

 

Edit: @JamesMadisonSkins I assume you mean 4 years total for Trent (not extending him 4 years from the end of his current deal).  I’d be down with that - we have the cap space and it pushes the need at tackle way down the list.

Don’t like the idea of extending Kerrigan at all, but I could see the current FO going for it.  
Also don’t want to extend Thompson.  He’s valuable, for sure, but we simply have to move away from injury prone guys (Guice is a different story as he’s on his rookie deal).  

[JamesMadisonSkins]

5 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Considering we aren’t a lock for #2 yet, I’m risking a big time jinx here, but...

I would be over the moon to have Miami wind up #3 and offer us a pick(s) to trade.  Landing Young and a top tackle would be absolutely unbelievable luck for us.  Of course, you’d have to be sure they were taking Tua...
 

Yeah this is the dream scenario I highlighted before this weekend's games and literally everything fell into place except the Lions. Needed them to beat Denver, and I don't see them winning in Week 17. So they're likely locked into a spot ahead of Miami and the Giants. And they'd take Young no questions.

[86 Snyder]

6 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Considering we aren’t a lock for #2 yet, I’m risking a big time jinx here, but...

I would be over the moon to have Miami wind up #3 and offer us a pick(s) to trade.  Landing Young and a top tackle would be absolutely unbelievable luck for us.  Of course, you’d have to be sure they were taking Tua...
 

 

That would be an AMAZING outcome.  And it's not completely out of the realm of possibility if Tua's medicals come back better than expected.

[JamesMadisonSkins]

8 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

That would be an AMAZING outcome.  And it's not completely out of the realm of possibility if Tua's medicals come back better than expected.

As far as I can tell, the only way this happens is if two very unlikely things happen in succession to Dallas beating the Skins ....

- Lions must beat Green Bay

- Giants must beat Philly

 

15 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Edit: @JamesMadisonSkins I assume you mean 4 years total for Trent (not extending him 4 years from the end of his current deal).  I’d be down with that - we have the cap space and it pushes the need at tackle way down the list.

Don’t like the idea of extending Kerrigan at all, but I could see the current FO going for it.  
Also don’t want to extend Thompson.  He’s valuable, for sure, but we simply have to move away from injury prone guys (Guice is a different story as he’s on his rookie deal).  

I don't want to extend Kerrigan either but I just assume that's what the team will do.

 

Also, while he had a down year, 30/31 shouldn't necessarily be the end of his useful life. Basically I'm giving the entire defense a pass for this year with the way the offense played early on and with Manubsky as the DC.

 

I'm fine with moving on from Thompson, too. This was just what I thought could happen.

 

And yes, that's 4 years including the 1 or 2 or whatever he ends up with on his contract. Just bump his APY from $14m for the remaining 2 seasons (with almost no gaurantees) to 4 years @$17 million APY and bumping to include tons of guarantees to get him to sign. So we'd have him for 2020, 2021, 2022 and 2023 when he'd be 34/35 and likely done. But as you said, this would lock down the LT spot and other than maybe a mid-round groomer for depth (to add to Christian), you kick the can down the road to 2021 draft when you go back to OT to look to replace Moses.

 

Extending Trent for 4 total years and re-signing Scherff really makes the OL elite. Then you can hope Wes Martin steps in to LG (or you bring back Flowers and maintain Martin as depth). I'm hoping Pierce steps up and takes the mantle as the OC from Roullier at some point. He was drafted to do that, I believe (5th for a C is definitely "high" enough to have that expectation).

[Est.1974]

A trade back needs to get serious consideration.

 

Current picks inc a comp pick for Crowder 1,3,4,4,5,7,7

 

Picking at #2 let's say that gets you Young then where do you go top of the third?

 

Or trade and potentially turn that into 1,1,2,3,4,4,5,7,7 giving four picks in the top seventy. 

 

Although taking Young may be the clear move if we have a strong push in FA.

[86 Snyder]

14 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

As far as I can tell, the only way this happens is if two very unlikely things happen in succession to Dallas beating the Skins ....

- Lions must beat Green Bay

- Giants must beat Philly

 

 

 

I was speaking more to the motivation for Miami to want to trade up than having the picks align.  But good point.

7 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

A trade back needs to get serious consideration.

 

Current picks inc a comp pick for Crowder 1,3,4,4,5,7,7

 

Picking at #2 let's say that gets you Young then where do you go top of the third?

 

Or trade and potentially turn that into 1,1,2,3,4,4,5,7,7 giving four picks in the top seventy. 

 

Although taking Young may be the clear move if we have a strong push in FA.

 

You could also trade down from the top of the 3rd and add picks that way.  Still get your superstar, then add numbers with trade downs later in the draft.

 

I'm in the Chase Young camp, but they'd be foolish not to listen to offers.  Regardless who ends up being the pick, it's clear that there are 2 supremely valuable draft slots in 2020 and we currently occupy one of them.  I probably won't watch next weekend because I can't bring myself to root for a loss against Dallas, but that's exactly what needs to happen for the betterment of the franchise.  Please don't screw this up!!