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2020 Comprehensive Draft Thread

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6 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

That Boise State vs Washington Bowl Game is case in point why group of five teams need to just STFU about being excluded from the playoffs despite the gaudy records they compile.  Even one of the best group of five teams in the country got their asses waxed by the fourth best team in the fifth best power 5 conference.

 

Just like the NCAA basketball tourney how the group of 5 teams do in bowl games against Power 5 teams varies year to year.   However, I agree with your specific point that a group of 5 team is almost never among the top 4 teams in the country.    Every few years I think there is a group of 5 team that may be legitimate top 10 and most years there is at least one group of 5 team that is legit top 25, but they just don't have the depth of talent to commit with the top 4 teams when they are motivated.

 

I also feel like if they had to go against a SEC West or Big 10 East schedule it would wear them out.   In a given year there would be G5 teams that could have say won the ACC Coastal this year--but there has never been a G5 team that could win the SEC West.

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Even in the SEC East, a team like UCF is guaranteed at least three or four losses every year minimum.

 

The level of competition is utterly different.  A Pac 12 schedule is a meat grinder where you're going against a fantastic coach almost every single week.  The best group of five teams West of the Mississippi plunked down in the Pac 12 would struggle for bowl eligibility most years because their coaching staffs are inferior and every team in the conference has multiple NFL players in it every year and that is not true for group of five teams.  Take Oregon St this year.  Five conference losses and they have one of the best receivers and pass rushers in the country, a senior qb who is pretty good, and a phenom running back.  Or take Colorado, Washington St, or Stanford.  Multiple elite college players and future NFL players, including at quarterback for each of them, as well as quite a few five star recruits in Stanford's case.  Plus David Shaw and Mike Leach are two of the 25 or so best coaches in the country.  Seven conference losses for each.

 

It's not just the top four, I think that even if you expanded the playoff to twelve there would rarely be a group of five team worthy of getting in.  They compete on easy mode.

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17 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Right now I am smitten by Tua, Burrow, Young, Lamb.  Almost there with Jeudy.  I think I can get there easily with Brown.    But Thomas and perhaps Okudah fit our needs the best.  I think Simmons does too but I've made the point as you have that he wouldn't be the type of pick that this FO seems to make.

 

Yeah Thomas and Okudah are probably the best marriage of BPA and need for us in the class.  In that calculation, I definitely prefer Okudah because I think he's better than Thomas.  Okudah is not hard to love.  He's a freak of nature type player at the position with no real weaknesses.  Elite top end speed, feet, and hips on a 6'1 frame with long arms.  Watching him play off man technique and transition from that backpedal to clicking and closing is pretty ridiculous.  He'll be able to run with any receiver in the NFL. 

 

And you've got to love it when a pure-bred All-Everything man coverage stud like him is willing to fly downhill and make plays like this:

 

giphy.gif

 

And I keep going back to what Stephon Gilmore has done for the Patriots to illustrate the impact of a truly elite corner.  He won them a Superbowl.  They're still a 12 win team even though they let Trent Brown walk.  A lock down man coverage star who can still make plays on the ball from that position and generate turnovers, who is also physical in run support?  That is probably third only to quarterback and primary pass rusher (sometimes these guys are interior rushers) in terms of sheer value and on-field impact.  Okudah would probably be a top five pick in any draft class.  He's worthy of being the first non-QB drafted after Chase Young.  He's probably got the chance to be more impactful than Simmons and Jeudy and Lamb, even if he's not as big a star as them at this stage.  And if you're looking down the pipeline at future draft classes, the only players who are truly of his caliber are Surtain and Stingley.  So like Chase Young, Okudah is an exceedingly rare and irreplaceable talent.

 

I just really love Simmons, Jeudy, and Lamb.  They're super rare too.  This is a great year to be picking top six or seven.  You've got very good odds of getting an All-Pro caliber talent.  So if we aren't able to manufacture a trade down, then the consolation prize can be an elite player if we go BPA.

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14 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

A 6' 4" 230lbs (who will definitely get bigger) LB that's fast enough to play corner, smart enough to play FS just seems like something you cant ever pass on. Hes definitely my 1b to Chase young. 

I too am a big fan of Simmons, he has superstar potential. My concern is without knowing the 2020 DC, he could be misused and turn into a wasted top pick. Luckily that had best be hashed out well before the draft and it isn't Manusky.

 

I believe there will be teams that fall in love with Tua, Okudah, one of the OT and/or one of the WR's and push to trade into the 3 or 4 pick so trading down slightly will be possible if the Redskins end out with one of those picks.They will be afforded trade down options which could be huge in filing roster gaps

 

Dylan Moses was the player I most looked forward to watching this year. Sadly he went down with a knee just before the season opener. I thought he would have been a great player taking over the middle of the D. I am interested to see what happens with him moving towards the draft.

 

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@Skinsinparadise, I wanted to respond to Brugler's takes on the top three OTs in the class: Wills, Wirfs, and Thomas.

 

His take is reasonable, but I think he's overlooking some key things.  I will agree that Andrew Thomas spends a ton of time on the ground and the contact balance is a concern.  And I agree that he has some clear technique issues as a run blocker.  Wills is definitely a better run blocker than him.  But you can't ignore the flag about Wills's clunky feet in his slides and I believe Brugler is ignoring that.  It probably means Wills can't play left tackle in the NFL.  A left tackle is more valued for what he can do going backwards rather than forwards, and I think there is no question that Thomas is a better pass protector with a higher ceiling in this part of the game than Wills.  He is bigger, has elite anchor strength and almost never gets beaten by power, and has special recovery ability even when he makes mistakes with his reads or his set.

 

giphy.gif

 

This play doesn't look like much but it's a sneaky good demonstration of part of what makes Thomas so appealing as a pass blocker.  Look at how he recovers to Christian Miller on his third step after not getting enough depth on the vertical set.  It looks like he baited Miller into sharpening his angle earlier in the rush than Miller had intended and then jumped him on that explosive third step.  He's just a gifted and instinctive pass protector.

 

The other thing to consider is Andrew Thomas is putting out ugly film because his position and role are harder than Wirfs's and Wills's, and he's not as well coached as them.  Georgia throws him in the deep end.  It's very infrequent that he gets TE or back help and he faces a huge variety of high end rushers plus they do use him to pick up DB blitzes AND they run behind him, even moving him over to the right side to run behind him there too.  His match ups and assignments are just more difficult on average than what Wirfs and Wills get, and that's probably the biggest reason their film is cleaner than his.

 

I also think that Thomas's balance issues as a run blocker can be worked on.  Yes, flexibility is a problem, but I think that's common for the very tall OTs like him, and these are often still the most desirable players/body types for NFL OTs because of the advantages their height and length give them in pass pro.  It looks like a lot of his problems with balance and block sustain come from classic mistakes in technique like lunging, ducking your head into the block, and not placing your punch right.  The coach who can improve his hands is going to unlock an impactful run blocker.  The Alabama and Iowa offensive line coaching is clearly better than Georgia's, I think Thomas still has untapped upside as a player.  And the other thing is he's probably not going to have the same kind of left handed run game in the NFL as most are right handed, so he's not going to be at the PoA as much at the next level, hiding more of his mistakes.  And I also want to say that Brugler is right to point out that Thomas gets the job done.  The reps aren't always pretty but he generally is winning these assignments and keeping the lineman from fitting, and Georgia had a good deal of success running behind him.  So some of Thomas's issues as a run blocker will be overstated here in nitpicking season.

 

I also think he's showed that he learns from rep to rep, and when he does get beat, he adjusts and doesn't let that guy beat him the same way again.  There is a fun sequence at the end of that 2018 Alabama game where they stunted Quinnen Williams into him three times in a row.  The first one, Quinnen gets him.  Thomas stays engaged with Buggs too long and didn't recognize the stunt in time and Quinnen gets into his numbers and gets him on skates.  But Thomas recognizes what's coming on the next two reps, plus he gets a chip from the TE on the third, and completely stones Quinnen.  Holds him within two yards of the line of scrimmage until the ball comes out.  He's got real power and length.

 

So bottom line, Thomas's potential is very high and he has the coveted blend of functional power and lateral speed that makes for a high end pass protector and gives him a better ceiling and more positional versatility than Wills.  I'm pretty sure Wills is going to be a guard or a right tackle only.  Wirfs is an equivalent athlete to Thomas and he clearly demonstrates the athleticism to make the switch to LT in the NFL, I just don't think he's as good.  He's getting better coaching and easier match ups and assignments than Thomas and yet he doesn't dominate.  He's not as big or gifted as Thomas.  And for all of the criticism I give Thomas about not being a tone setter and too often lacking finish to his blocks, to me Wirfs plays even more passive than Thomas.  I'm not really sure Wirfs does enough things at a higher level than Thomas to justify ranking him higher.  Thomas makes sense to me as a potential top five pick.  I really don't think I could justify Wirfs or Wills in that range.

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I feel like, if we are picking 2nd or 3rd, teams are gonna be calling to move up to take  Young or Tua. I can see Jon Gruden offering 3 1sts to move up to our spot. Or, if Miami picks after us I can see them wanting to move up to secure Tua. Gruden can't be too pleased with Carr and is the kind of guy to fall in love with a player and overpay to get him. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we better be prepared to potentially field some very good offers for our pick and know what we want to do. We could draft a player or deal for multiple high picks that could set us up for a long, long time. These opportunities don't come around often. 

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Most will disagree with me, but we need to trade the #2 pick for multiple selections.  We CANNOT enter next season with Christian, Moses, and some lower grade rookies as our tackles.  With a young QB and those tackles, we won't win 4 games next year.  I know Young is elite talent.  Just not the position we need most.  

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Just now, Daniel.redskins said:

Most will disagree with me, but we need to trade the #2 pick for multiple selections.  We CANNOT enter next season with Christian, Moses, and some lower grade rookies as our tackles.  With a young QB and those tackles, we won't win 4 games next year.  I know Young is elite talent.  Just not the position we need most.  

I don't disagree with anything you said. If we draft Chase,  great, we got us a elite DE that has the potential to turn this defense around single handedly.  If we don't draft Chase then we have a very very valuable pick at #2. Teams will be out there ready to unload for that #2 spot. We just need to root hard for the Dolphins right now and secure that #2 spot.

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24 minutes ago, DazedSkinsfan said:

I don't disagree with anything you said. If we draft Chase,  great, we got us a elite DE that has the potential to turn this defense around single handedly.  If we don't draft Chase then we have a very very valuable pick at #2. Teams will be out there ready to unload for that #2 spot. We just need to root hard for the Dolphins right now and secure that #2 spot.

I dont have anything but a gut feeling, i think Chase Young will be a major bust.

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39 minutes ago, DazedSkinsfan said:

We just won the Chase bowl boys and girls!!!!!!!!!!!🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆

Oh we'll throw that out with a victory over the Cowboys next week. 

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18 hours ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

So...pick Chase at 2 or pick Thomas at 3?  Seems like a win win.

 

If we move down a few spots I could see a few guys.  Love Jeudy.  Paired with TMac would be nice.  

 

Haven't been able to follow this thread as closely this year.  Thanks for all the work as usual. 

 

Like @stevemcqueen1 I love a bunch of potential top 10 pick players in this draft.  But my man crush on Young rivals my man crush on RG3 in 2011-2012

(granted maybe that's a bad omen 😀)

 

If they end up with the 2nd pick in the draft, I am running to the podium with that draft card.  

 

I've been (still am) on egg shells hoping that not only we get Young but the Giants don't.  I admit some of that is personal.  My in laws are mostly Giant fans and it bugs me to no end that even when they lose like we do they still have star power which seems to make them relevant nationally.  I think the last national star, we've had was RG3.  You'd see RG3 shirts everywhere not just the DMV.  We don't have a player like that and the Giants always seem to have a dude like that.  So for the Giants to end up with sort of the Barkley of defenses would drive me a bit nuts.  

 

And forgetting the emotion of all of that, I do think Chase Young will make our D line special.  Conversely I think he would make the Giants D line special.  I don't want to jinx it so no victory lap from me but yeah I'd be giddy if we end up with the 2nd pick in the draft. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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14 minutes ago, panahoo said:

I dont have anything but a gut feeling, i think Chase Young will be a major bust.

 

Well, the guy has been quiet in terms of production in big games this season so there is something to it. Given it is this team, it is probably more likely that he hurts his knee the first snap of training camp

 

If this team can get at least 2 1sts and a second, I would ship this pick. With the cap room this team will have + a ton of picks (including comp picks and trading Trent), this team could compete next year with a new coaching staff. Hopefully, guys like Rivera will see this opportunity. 

 

Taking a look at this draft from a high level, this team will have to likely sign a TE (Austin Hooper please), LT (Kelvin Beachum is solid) and a solid veteran FS (think someone like a Tre Boston...maybe the poor guy will finally get a multi-year deal after 3 years of crushing it on 1 year contracts). Through the draft, you can easily pick up a Day 1 starter at RT in either rd 1 or rd 2, another high potential wide receiver in rd 1, a corner in the first two rounds and a ton of depth everywhere else 

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27 minutes ago, panahoo said:

I dont have anything but a gut feeling, i think Chase Young will be a major bust.

 

I don't know if you've watched one of his games where you just focus on him.  But in nearly every game, he is disruptive on almost every play.  That's what made me fall hard for the dude months back.

 

I think Cooley said it well.  He goes the closest thing he's seen to Lamar Jackson on defense is Chase Young because the dude makes an impact on almost every play.   

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1 hour ago, Daniel.redskins said:

Most will disagree with me, but we need to trade the #2 pick for multiple selections.  We CANNOT enter next season with Christian, Moses, and some lower grade rookies as our tackles.  With a young QB and those tackles, we won't win 4 games next year.  I know Young is elite talent.  Just not the position we need most.  

 

And that is why dont draft for need at the 2nd pick. You dont pass on elite talent like Young unless someone offers you a trade you simply cant pass up. Like an RG3 type haul.

 

I am going to edit this by adding a player like Young makes your entire front 7 better. He MUST be doubled on every play. How nice would it be to have Allen, Payne and IO getting a single blocker on every single play?

Edited by clskinsfan
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3 minutes ago, skins4ever28 said:

So anyone have scenarios where we lose the 2 pick? Because isn’t there a chance the cowboy sit their starter next week against us if they win today?

We get the #2 pick in the following scenarios:

- We lose next week

- We tie next week (based on current SoS)

- We win next week the following is happening: Lions win either today or next week, Giants and Dolphins both either win or tie next week

 

We lose the #2 pick if:

We win and one (!) of the following is happening:

- The Lions lose out

- The Giants lose to the Eagles

- The Dolphins lose to the Patriots

 

So there are still many scenarios how we can lose the #2. Bottom line is, don't win against the Cowboys. So we better hope the Eagles win, so that the Cowboys don't sit their starters. Also a Lions win would be nice today. Then we would only have to worry about the Giants and the Dolphins next week.

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7 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

 

And that is why dont draft for need at the 2nd pick. You dont pass on elite talent like Young unless someone offers you a trade you simply cant pass up. Like an RG3 type haul.

 

I am going to edit this by adding a player like Young makes your entire front 7 better. He MUST be doubled on every play. How nice would it be to have Allen, Payne and IO getting a single blocker on every single play?

 

How nice would it be if he were doing this as a LDE in a 4-3 with a hand in the dirt on every play?

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9 minutes ago, method man said:

 

How nice would it be if he were doing this as a LDE in a 4-3 with a hand in the dirt on every play?

That may very well happen. The new coaching staff will make that decision.

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office-space-bill-lumbergh_o_3283529.jpg

 

Yeahhhhhh, we're gonna have to uhhh, scratch this 3-4 and throw that mother****er into Mt Doom, never to return.

 

Let our shiny new lad feast with his hand in the dirt

Edited by Mr. Sinister
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Is it possible Cincy takes Young?

 

If so we need to be prepared to wheel and deal even if it means drafting Joe and holding him hostage until someone gives us draft picks.

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47 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I don't know if you've watched one of his games where you just focus on him.  But in nearly every game, he is disruptive on almost every play.  That's what made me fall hard for the dude months back.

 

I think Cooley said it well.  He goes the closest thing he's seen to Lamar Jackson on defense is Chase Young because the dude makes an impact on almost every play.   

 

He is so special that he'll improve the offense!  

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10 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

office-space-bill-lumbergh_o_3283529.jpg

 

Yeahhhhhh, we're gonna have to uhhh, scratch this 3-4 and throw that mother****er into Mt Doom, never to return.

 

Let our shiny new lad feast with his hand in the dirt

Sweat would play RDE?

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