2020 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[mhd24]

I'm pretty sure the top 2 are set at Burrow and Young.

 

After that, who knows?  Okudah brings positional value and WR is so DEEP.  Simmons is a unicorn defender.  I could see Jeudy slipping to 5.  If we can't get Young, I want to trade down as much as possible.  We have so many needs.

[nonniey]

2 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

I wouldn't be so sure....If we can't get at least a 2nd for him then I'd hold on to him and go through round two with him. Maybe we deal him midseason for a 2021 1st or 2nd? Or maybe a new GM gets him to play here again? Who knows, we do know that Trent likes Snyder which could mean something as this plays out? Still a long way to go with Trent's case.

I imagine if Allen is here he won't deal him for less than a 2d (maybe even a first) as that would definitively demonstrate what a fool he was - in which case he'll sit Trent for another year. 

[philibusters]

• In terms of Trent Williams I  would trade if possible.   I don't know what the market will be, but maybe a late second round (New England) or early to mid third round (Miami, Cleveland).   There wouldn't be a huge difference in say the Patriots second round and Miami's third round pick for example.  if you let Trent Williams walk without trading him the Redskins best case scenario would be to get a 3rd round compensatory pick at the end of the third round when Williams signs with another team after next season.   That said compensatory picks are based on an unknown formula that the league uses that includes post-season honors, playing time, and contract size.  Since Williams didn't play in 2019 its possible he won't get the Redskins anything under the formula.

 

In terms of the number 2 pick, I would trade it.   Chase Young is highly desired.  D-Line is one of the units with the highest draft bust rate.   D-Line Prospects viewed as once in every five year prospects (like Clowney and Mario Williams) often end up being good not great players.  The reason I would trade the number 2 pick is Chase Young is considered a good enough prospect where you could probably stay in the top 10 and and still get  second round pick.   Thus you could potentially score like the 8th pick, a second round pick, and a fourth round pick for it.   The third pick if that is the pick we get, may not have that value to get that much.  With the 8th pick you could potentially draft the second highest rate Offensive Tackle.   If you got an early second round pick for the second pick plus late second round pick for Williams you could probably pick up a decent corner like Byrce Hall with the early second rounder and a decent interior O-Lineman with the late second rounder.

 

That said I would have no issue taking Chase Young either.   He is the best prospect in this class.  When you trade away a pick for Chase Young there is  a  real risk you get egg on your face as he ends up being a 100+ career sack guy.

 

An additional question is where would Chase Young play?   Will we stay with a 3-4 in which case would he take Montez Sweat's spot and Sweat moves over to Ryan Kerrigan's spot?  That would solve the issue of how to move on from Kerrigan.  Or does Young directly replace Kerrigan?  

 

[Mania]

On 12/4/2019 at 12:57 PM, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

Past Super Bowl winners:

Patriots - best OL was their RT

Eagles - best OL was their Center and RT

Patriots - best OL was their RT

Broncos - line was decent, their best was maybe the RG?

Patriots - best OL was...not sure, maybe their RT Sebastian Vollmer?

Seahawks - best OL was their Center

Ravens - best OL was their RG

Giants - best OL were their LG and RG

Packers - best OL was their LT

Saints - best OL was their RG

 

It doesn't matter where the best OL is, it just matters that the unit as a whole is good.  Blocking assignments shift from play to play based on playcall and what the defense is showing.  Talent anywhere on the line, makes things easier for everyone else.

It is very true that many teams have their best lineman at other positions besides LT.   Last year, I'm not sure I would say Marcus Cannon was their best tackle as Trent Brown was one of the best LTs.  No question that Marshall Yanda was the best lineman on the roster in 2012 and for most seasons, but this season Ronnie Stanley is just as good and that isn't because Yanda isn't playing as well.  He is still an All Pro RG.  

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

4 minutes ago, SkinsFanMania said:

It is very true that many teams have their best lineman at other positions besides LT.   Last year, I'm not sure I would say Marcus Cannon was their best tackle as Trent Brown was one of the best LTs.  No question that Marshall Yanda was the best lineman on the roster in 2012 and for most seasons, but this season Ronnie Stanley is just as good and that isn't because Yanda isn't playing as well.  He is still an All Pro RG.  

 

I think it's also telling that the Patriots have been fine with turnover at the LT position.  They let Solder and Brown walk.  I don't think they view that position as imperative as the others might.

 

Ravens are one of the contenders this year.  LT and RG for them, if they win I suppose.  Some other contenders I'm not sure who would be the best OL.  Chiefs?  Not sure.  49ers?  Also not sure, it probably would be Joe Staley but he's been hurt most of the year.  So maybe their Center, Weston Richburg?  Seahawks?  I'm not sure, I know some of their guys have improved, but how much?  Would it still be the 34 year old LT, Duane Brown?  Saints would probably be both LT and RT, with a runner up for their Center.  Packers would be the LT, but I've read Bakhtiari isn't his usual dominant self.

[Skinsinparadise]

I'd have no problem trading down and taking one of the receivers but I'd want to trade down, there are multiple receivers I like in this draft for different reasons. 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

16 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

J

I still really like the Alabama WR trio though.  Jeudy might not time as fast as he plays, but his short area quickness and agility is as good as it gets.  I could see him being a Calvin Ridley/Marvin Harrison school WR with a little bit extra shimmy and toughness after the catch in his game.  He's going to be a star too.  He can do it all and will be good as a rookie.  No-brainer top ten talent.

 

And even though we've discussed it at length, I think it deserves reiterating just how good the open field speed is for DeVonta Smith and Henry Ruggs.  Ruggs makes Parris Campbell look ordinary.  That is some true shot out of a canon speed and I could see him having a similar impact and role as John Ross, except that I think he's bigger and sturdier.  That doesn't sound like a compliment, but Ross was on his way to a huge season before he got hurt.  This is a game-breaking weapon who can score on really basic stuff and puts enormous pressure on safeties.

 

 

I've talked less about Ruggs than the other 2 Alabama receivers but love him, too.  In one sense he reminds me of McLaurin in that he was perhaps underused because of other receivers on the team so you have to project him some.  I watched plenty of Alabama including some in person so I feel more comfortable judging their players than most other college teams.  And yeah Ruggs to me I think will also be a good one.  He's not just a pure speed guy.  He actually has really good-strong hands.

 

[PartyPosse]

4 hours ago, philibusters said:

The reason I would trade the number 2 pick is Chase Young is considered a good enough prospect where you could probably stay in the top 10 and and still get  second round pick.   Thus you could potentially score like the 8th pick, a second round pick, and a fourth round pick for it.   

Not nearly enough. If we trade from say 2 to 8 there better be at least an additional first and second.

[Going Commando]

27 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I've talked less about Ruggs than the other 2 Alabama receivers but love him, too.  In one sense he reminds me of McLaurin in that he was perhaps underused because of other receivers on the team so you have to project him some.  I watched plenty of Alabama including some in person so I feel more comfortable judging their players than most other college teams.  And yeah Ruggs to me I think will also be a good one.  He's not just a pure speed guy.  He actually has really good-strong hands.

  

 

I like that play against South Carolina where he scored an 80+ yard touchdown on a shallow cross from the right side of the formation.  It was a play action and the two linebackers in the stack came up to clear a little bit of a lane for him in front of the back end of the D and SC had three DBs back deep and Ruggs just blew them away.  He had like ten yards of space on them in the blink of an eye.  Breathtaking speed.

 

He reminds me so much of John Ross.  Ross has had two very serious and scary injuries which basically robbed him of two seasons.  But if he hadn't gotten hurt this year, he'd be recognized as a superstar player.  The talent is almost magical, and Ruggs has the same kind of gift.  DeSean Jackson types.  Can blow coverage away just by giving a little sink of the hips in the break and keeping stride.  Can give a little bit of a lean to hit top gear on a nine route or post and gain three steps of space on good coverage.  Can take a shallow cross or slant for a touchdown on a flowing defense.   Really basic stuff that exploits the fact that DBs can't match up with them for an entire game.

 

I think you're right that he's kind of gotten lost inside that unbelievably loaded Alabama offense, and that he'd get a lot more attention if he was the top guy for a lesser program (Like Cal or Washington).  But I'm glad that he's gotten lost because I'm hoping it makes him go a lot lower in the draft than he should.  It feels a little crazy to say this, but I don't think it's out of the question that he gets pushed into the second round.  He'd be the ultimate weapon for an offense like ours.  You know how Dwayne likes buying time and throwing those meshes and crossing route concepts.  Ruggs would be like having Parris Campbell on steroids.

[philibusters]

58 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

Not nearly enough. If we trade from say 2 to 8 there better be at least an additional first and second.

 

I'll admit that I have a tough time gauging what a pick will get but I cannot see the second pick getting the 8th pick this year, a future first rounder, this year's second rounder, and next year's second rounder.   

 

That is not to say a team it cannot happened, but if I were a GM, I'd be willing to trade the number 2 pick for a lot less.   Chase Young is good, but my conservative instinct is that he'll have a very solid career, make a couple pro bowls, but that he won't live up to the hype, which is really high at this point.  (For what its worth i have followed him since his junior year at Dematha when Maryland started recruiting him).   There is just so many variables like how his game will translate, the wear and tear he'll endure after a few years in the league, how much we'd have to pay to keep him after his rookie contract, that makes me think that if you could get 3 1st or second round picks for him that may be the way to go.    Hes really good and I do think he is the best player in the draft, I just think when a prospect gets a lot of hype it starts to create unrealistic expectations.  D-Line has one of the highest bust rates of any position.  I'd be surprised if he busts, but if I had the number 2 pick I would definitely be willing to trade down especially if I could turn it into a combo of 3 picks that included a high first round (top 10) plus two more picks that were either first or second rounders.

[Going Commando]

This blitz is one of my favorite Isaiah Simmons plays of the season:

 

 

 

Keep in mind that Javonte Williams is a strong guy.  Simmons was really good in this game.  If you're looking for the performances where he starred SIP, this game, the NC game against Bama, vs SC this year, the ACC Championship game against Pitt, and this year's games against Syracuse and Louisville are all good ones to watch.  I can't find any of those cut ups on youtube, but I think someone will make them within the next few months, and they've been showing Clemson replays on the ACCN and ESPN networks.  I wouldn't judge him too harshly based on his 2018 cut ups.  He plays a really difficult position in their defense and it took him most of that season to get good at it.  He improved by leaps and bounds over the course of the year until he was basically an impact player by the end of the year.  He plays in literally every part of the field.  You'll see a steady diet of edge and A gap blitzes.  You'll see blitz fakes in the A gap and then bail to a deep zone.  You'll see man coverage on the slot and on the outside.  You'll see traditional stack play and pursuit duty.  And you'll see box safety work.  They like him both as an edge setter and an alley guy.  Venables basically wants to get him around the point of attack as much as possible.

[Skinsinparadise]

If he's in the 4th round range, I'd consider

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

This blitz is one of my favorite Isaiah Simmons plays of the season:

 

 

 

Keep in mind that Javonte Williams is a strong guy.  Simmons was really good in this game.  If you're looking for the performances where he starred SIP, this game, the NC game against Bama, vs SC this year, the ACC Championship game against Pitt, and this year's games against Syracuse and Louisville are all good ones to watch.  I can't find any of those cut ups on youtube, but I think someone will make them within the next few months, and they've been showing Clemson replays on the ACCN and ESPN networks.  I wouldn't judge him too harshly based on his 2018 cut ups.  He plays a really difficult position in their defense and it took him most of that season to get good at it.  He improved by leaps and bounds over the course of the year until he was basically an impact player by the end of the year.  He plays in literally every part of the field.  You'll see a steady diet of edge and A gap blitzes.  You'll see blitz fakes in the A gap and then bail to a deep zone.  You'll see man coverage on the slot and on the outside.  You'll see traditional stack play and pursuit duty.  And you'll see box safety work.  They like him both as an edge setter and an alley guy.  Venables basically wants to get him around the point of attack as much as possible.

 

Thanks, I'll look for 2019 games.  I want to love Simmons because I do love the jack knife do it all type players in today's NFL.  And I've seen some killer plays from him.  But when I just focused on him via the 2018 games, I liked his play but i wasn't blown away but like I said Clemson seemed to use him in coverage a lot.

 

I was more taken by him when he played closer to the line of scrimmage albeit I am impressed that a dude that size can play coverage and chase receivers.   I think would made me less infatuated is watching him so much in coverage and while its impressive he can keep up with whomever, he didn't seem a play maker on that front.  But he was a playmaker closer to the line of scrimmage.  But that was via the 2018 games I watched.

 

Looking at that play and have seen others that are explosive like that, yeah that side of him gets me jazzed, he's a freak, and like I said, I like him as a blitzer from both the edge and A gap, and he's fun to watch chasing down RBs and mobile Qbs.  I think am pretty sold on him if his 2019 games jump more.

 

Here's a great article I found about Simmons from yesterday.

 

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/28176436/how-clemson-isaiah-simmons-became-linebacker-future

 

As No. 3 Clemson sets its sights on a fifth-straight ACC title and another berth in the College Football Playoff, Simmons has blossomed into the prototype for a new type of defender -- a hybrid who can rush off the edge, shadow a runner from sideline to sideline or cover the fastest slot receiver an opposing coach can find. Simmons is the answer to all the questions the modern spread attacks have forced upon defensive coaches. They just never thought to look for that answer on a track in Kansas.

"I feel like I'm bringing something to the game that nobody else has," Simmons said. "That no one else can."

 

...SWINNEY THUMBED through the paperwork his strength coach had just dropped on his desk, numbers from summer testing. Swinney stopped suddenly and shook his head. No, this couldn't be right.

The new kid, Simmons -- his numbers were unreal.

Broad jump: 11 feet, 3 inches. That would've been good enough for fifth at this year's NFL combine.

Vertical leap: 40 inches. That would've been better than all but three players at this year's NBA combine.

He also ran a 4.31 40-yard dash, the fastest time on the team.

All before he had ever played a down at Clemson.

"I was like, 'You've got to be kidding me,'" Swinney said.

 

The measurables were all there. The technique, however, was a bit of a mess.

"He was just kind of all knees and elbows," Swinney said. "You'd notice him though. He was rarely in the right place, but you'd notice him. He was just a blur, and you knew early on he was special."

Simmons took a redshirt that first year and worked on learning his new position. He participated in the long jump for the Clemson track team, but he was too focused on football to do it long term. He finally got a chance to play in 2017, mostly at safety, but it wasn't until the following year that things clicked.

Simmons went through spring ball still insecure about his role. He had an idea. He had seen what Clemson did with former linebacker Dorian O'Daniel, the way his versatility was showcased as both a run-stuffer and in coverage. Simmons figured he could do that too, so he set out to talk to Venables about his plan. Turns out, Venables had the same idea.

 

"Ever since then, I felt like it was meant to be," Simmons said.

It's not that the transition was flawless. In the early days of practice, Venables tagged Simmons with the nickname "Twinkletoes." Simmons had a tendency to dance around, to be in too many places at once, to rely on his feet rather than his head. Venables knew how to push Simmons' buttons.

"I hated it," Simmons said. "But I've grown out of the nickname a little bit. He still calls me that sometimes -- just to tease me."

 

So yeah, Venables hears the question a lot, even from the NFL scouts currently drooling over Simmons' potential.

"Their first question is, 'Where do you see him?'" Venables said. "I say, 'That's y'all's job.' But he gives you more than one position. When you're drafting a guy like that, you're adding more than one guy with one draft pick."

 

Things have changed since Simmons' recruitment. No, his role isn't obvious, but pigeonholing him into a position also doesn't seem so important these days. As NFL offenses adapt many of the same spread philosophies that have run rampant in college, Simmons isn't just an athlete without a home. He is a superstar with endless possible uses.

 

"What was a question mark became a strength," ESPN analyst Todd McShay said. "He's become a new-age back-seven guy."

McShay currently has Simmons slotted eighth in his mock draft, and he said most NFL teams simply don't care about where Simmons fits. The point is that he'll fit anywhere. And in a league where offenses have become increasingly pass dominant, Simmons might be the prototype for what's to come on defense.

Venables isn't ready to go quite that far, if for no reason other than there simply aren't many guys like Simmons. What Simmons has done isn't easily replicated.

"He literally could make All-American in four different spots," Swinney said.

 

 

[PartyPosse]

1 hour ago, philibusters said:

 

I'll admit that I have a tough time gauging what a pick will get but I cannot see the second pick getting the 8th pick this year, a future first rounder, this year's second rounder, and next year's second rounder.   

 

That is not to say a team it cannot happened, but if I were a GM, I'd be willing to trade the number 2 pick for a lot less.   Chase Young is good, but my conservative instinct is that he'll have a very solid career, make a couple pro bowls, but that he won't live up to the hype, which is really high at this point.  (For what its worth i have followed him since his junior year at Dematha when Maryland started recruiting him).   There is just so many variables like how his game will translate, the wear and tear he'll endure after a few years in the league, how much we'd have to pay to keep him after his rookie contract, that makes me think that if you could get 3 1st or second round picks for him that may be the way to go.    Hes really good and I do think he is the best player in the draft, I just think when a prospect gets a lot of hype it starts to create unrealistic expectations.  D-Line has one of the highest bust rates of any position.  I'd be surprised if he busts, but if I had the number 2 pick I would definitely be willing to trade down especially if I could turn it into a combo of 3 picks that included a high first round (top 10) plus two more picks that were either first or second rounders.

Remember, you’re not just moving down 6 spots, you’re also risking getting the two or three players you’ve targeted. It’s not worth that kind of risk to lose what you want for a second. 
 

Also, RG3 cost 3 firsts and a second and we only moved up from 6.

[Koolblue13]

Simmons is becoming my favorite pick, even over Young.

[Skinsinparadise]

49 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Simmons is becoming my favorite pick, even over Young.

 

I'd go Young over Simmons.  But for me Simmons is intriguing but I think the wrong defensive coordinator could easily waste him.  IMO he's a dude that's perfect for a Belichick -- smart-creative defensive coordinator.  If Manusky stays or someone of his ilk runs the defense part of me thinks they waste him because IMO you got to move him around the field like a chess piece to milk his talent because a big part of his talent in that he can play a range of positions and roles which you can use to confuse offenses among other things. 

 

If you got a creative coordinator, I think he could have a blast with someone like him.  If you got a vanilla type D coordinator who uses Simmons in a vanilla way then I don't think he wouldn't reach his potential.  Granted you can make a point like that about any player but I think it especially applies to Simmons. 

[Koolblue13]

@Skinsinparadise yeah, I'm not passing on Young, but my Hope's for that 2nd pick isnt all or bust ya know. I'd be fine dropping back a couple spots from 2nd if we were guaranteed Simmons and even a high second.

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

@Skinsinparadise yeah, I'm not passing on Young, but my Hope's for that 2nd pick isnt all or bust ya know. I'd be fine dropping back a couple spots from 2nd if we were guaranteed Simmons and even a high second.

 

The mocks are somewhat worthless at this time of year but for what its worth looks like Simmons is typically in the 8-13 range.

 

I am hoping they sign a LT in FA because I hate going into the draft boxed into a position but if they don't sign one in FA, I'd put it at 95% they are taking a LT in the first. It's not that I am opposed to drafting an O lineman in the first but it's that I hate forcing a pick, I want flexibility, BPA.

 

You might be interested in this but he's more of a receiving type then a well rounded TE.  

 

 

 

 

[Koolblue13]

Doesn't PSU have a pretty highly rated TE? 

 

I'd be happy drafting one and signing Hunter. 

[Going Commando]

41 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Simmons is becoming my favorite pick, even over Young.

 

Him, Young, and Kinlaw are the three freak of nature defensive players who are just on a different physical level than the other guys in the class.

 

Simmons is interesting because of his versatility.  He's one of the first overhang defenders I can think of with absolutely ideal physical traits.  Usually these guys are smaller and not so good at playing that force role or rushing the passer.

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Doesn't PSU have a pretty highly rated TE? 

 

I'd be happy drafting one and signing Hunter. 

 

Yep in about the same range in the draft it seems give or take right now

 

 

 

 

[PartyPosse]

I always liked Calcattera but he's supposedly retiring due to concussion-related symptoms.

[Going Commando]

LOL they just threw the screen to Penei Sewell.

27 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Doesn't PSU have a pretty highly rated TE? 

  

I'd be happy drafting one and signing Hunter. 

 

He's a budding star but he's not draft eligible.

 

Texas A&M has a beast of a TE too but he's a true freshman.  One to watch for 2022.

I have really enjoyed watching this Utah team this season.  Moss is a joy to watch and Huntley has been surprisingly good.  Jaylon Johnson is one of my favorite players in the class too.

 

Oregon Offense vs Utah Defense has like 12 NFL prospects on the field.  Good game to evaluate.

[Koala]

22 hours ago, mhd24 said:

I'm pretty sure the top 2 are set at Burrow and Young.

 

After that, who knows?  Okudah brings positional value and WR is so DEEP.  Simmons is a unicorn defender.  I could see Jeudy slipping to 5.  If we can't get Young, I want to trade down as much as possible.  We have so many needs.

 

Even if we can get Young, Id be in favor of trading down.

 

I like Chase Young, been watching him for years  - but after the Michigan game, he confirmed my suspicions that he's not quite a franchise player.  But he's good.  Id take him in the 1st round, just not at #1.  Just an OSU fan giving you my 2 cents.  

 

He is not quite the physically gifted freak like a Jevon Kearse or a Clowney.  He is a good technician and he certainly has as an explosive first step as youll ever see.   But after that, he tends to be a little bit of an upright rusher...and his upper body strength is not quite elite.  Given this reason, I think he has a limited upside -- the Chase Young you see now is basically as good as he is gonna be.  Which is pretty damned good, dont get me wrong, but for a team like us that already has talent on the D-line, Chase Young is not much value.

[Going Commando]

Huntley really struggling tonight.  The coverage has been winning but his decision making is off and he's missing throws.  He needs to play like he did against Colorado and manage the pressure for Utah to have a chance to win this game.  Oregon is the better team.