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2020 Comprehensive Draft Thread

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1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

Is it your contention that to be an acceptable draft pick a pass rusher must have at least one sack in every game he played in during college?

 

 

Yeah I actually might take Lamb over Jeudy. Lamb is also an absolute monster after the catch when it comes to breaking tackles, etc and he doesn't have the drop issues that Jeudy does. However, I would say that Jeudy is a better route runner at this point, but not by a huge margin. 

My feeling is that if you are drafting low 1st round then the guy does not have to be billed as a generational talent or the next LT. and if he is a bust then you can live with it. If you have the 2nd pick in the draft you better be sure this kid is the real deal as there is every good college player available to you at that time. I think CY is a real good player BUT I WATCHED HIS LAST 3 GAMES and I was not impressed and I heard all the excuses. Mabe he was great in the games I did not see but we all know guys look great in college and then turn out to be average guys in the NFL. I would love to see him live up to his billing as we need a impact player bad and if he is everything they say he is then he would be a great addition to our D but I just did not see it yet. Yes he looks great in the highlight clips but so does everyone. Let's see what we are offered for our pick before we put him in the HOF. If we do not get any offers then we have to go with him but if we can get 3 real good guys that can change our D from 32 to top 12 to 15 then that is the way I would go. IMO I don't think any one player, except a QB, is worth 3 real good players. If you think getting CY is going to improve our D that much then get him. I remember the Williams kid the Jets took was supposed to be the best player in the draft. I was pissed when we passed on him. Now he is on his next team and Giant fans want to get rid of him. Guess he was not the best.

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20 minutes ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

My feeling is that if you are drafting low 1st round then the guy does not have to be billed as a generational talent or the next LT. and if he is a bust then you can live with it. If you have the 2nd pick in the draft you better be sure this kid is the real deal as there is every good college player available to you at that time. I think CY is a real good player BUT I WATCHED HIS LAST 3 GAMES and I was not impressed and I heard all the excuses. Mabe he was great in the games I did not see but we all know guys look great in college and then turn out to be average guys in the NFL. I would love to see him live up to his billing as we need a impact player bad and if he is everything they say he is then he would be a great addition to our D but I just did not see it yet. Yes he looks great in the highlight clips but so does everyone. Let's see what we are offered for our pick before we put him in the HOF. If we do not get any offers then we have to go with him but if we can get 3 real good guys that can change our D from 32 to top 12 to 15 then that is the way I would go. IMO I don't think any one player, except a QB, is worth 3 real good players. If you think getting CY is going to improve our D that much then get him. I remember the Williams kid the Jets took was supposed to be the best player in the draft. I was pissed when we passed on him. Now he is on his next team and Giant fans want to get rid of him. Guess he was not the best.

 

This is entirely understandable, you did a good job of stating your case. I'm still in the draft Chase camp as you rarely get this type of an opportunity but I'd be lying if I said I didn't share the same concerns.  

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44 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

This is entirely understandable, you did a good job of stating your case. I'm still in the draft Chase camp as you rarely get this type of an opportunity but I'd be lying if I said I didn't share the same concerns.  

If we do not get any offers and we are stuck drafting him, I will not be mad as I think he is a real good player with unlimited potential. We all know unlimited potential is nothing without desire. So much easier when everyone makes a decision for you.

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9 minutes ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

If we do not get any offers and we are stuck drafting him, I will not be mad as I think he is a real good player with unlimited potential. We all know unlimited potential is nothing without desire. So much easier when everyone makes a decision for you.

I think that’s where the argument disconnect lies. I, like you, am all for drafting Chase. It’s not like any of us are saying we don’t acknowledge his potential. But we have a chance to add a plethora of additional picks while still having the option of drafting an impact player like Okudah then it should at least be considered.

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What about a nick bosa who didnt have the stats that he has...that was injured for his last year atleast half of the season...that was drafted at the same slot chase young could be drafted...who was rated less than him..meanwhile the 49ers the year prior before were clamoring for Saleh to be exiled....were in the bottom 8 for sacks/pressures...and after trading for dee ford... drafted bosa and woolah magic happens and they are if not 1st in sacks...top 3 and a top 5 defense. Now montez and our d line having an actual defensive coordinator with a chase young could actually replicate what they did but also be better. There is that kind of potential. I hope we draft chase young and as always theres a possibility he busts...but I just dont see it. 

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1 hour ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

My feeling is that if you are drafting low 1st round then the guy does not have to be billed as a generational talent or the next LT. and if he is a bust then you can live with it. If you have the 2nd pick in the draft you better be sure this kid is the real deal as there is every good college player available to you at that time. I think CY is a real good player BUT I WATCHED HIS LAST 3 GAMES and I was not impressed and I heard all the excuses. Mabe he was great in the games I did not see but we all know guys look great in college and then turn out to be average guys in the NFL. I would love to see him live up to his billing as we need a impact player bad and if he is everything they say he is then he would be a great addition to our D but I just did not see it yet. Yes he looks great in the highlight clips but so does everyone. Let's see what we are offered for our pick before we put him in the HOF. If we do not get any offers then we have to go with him but if we can get 3 real good guys that can change our D from 32 to top 12 to 15 then that is the way I would go. IMO I don't think any one player, except a QB, is worth 3 real good players. If you think getting CY is going to improve our D that much then get him. I remember the Williams kid the Jets took was supposed to be the best player in the draft. I was pissed when we passed on him. Now he is on his next team and Giant fans want to get rid of him. Guess he was not the best.

 

I’m getting pretty sick of the “TRADE BACK” crowd. Regardless of how you feel about Young, trading back lowers your chances to hit on a pick significantly.  The Browns and Rams (RGIII trade) can attest to this. 

 

Please list some recent success stories of a team trading down from a top 5 pick and ending up being better off for it. I’ll wait. 

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Oh good grief.  Chase is the best DL prospect in the last 10-20 years. This is according to every expert who follows college football. He would be the #1 pick if position (QB kinda important) was not a factor. I know many watched the Clemson game and now see that Chase is suddenly an expendable/tradable pick. Utter nonsense. Please do yourself a favor and watch extensive tape, then come back and tell me in what universe you would trade out of that pick. Barring injury he is a generational talent. You DO NOT trade out of that pick. If they do the regret will be viewable every Sunday. Rivera will crucify anyone that does. Chase will be the pick. Period. Btw, no serious injury history. It matters. Hail

Edited by Riggo'sRangers
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5 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

I’m getting pretty sick of the “TRADE BACK” crowd. Regardless of how you feel about Young, trading back lowers your chances to hit on a pick significantly.  The Browns and Rams (RGIII trade) can attest to this. 

 

Please list some recent success stories of a team trading down from a top 5 pick and ending up being better off for it. I’ll wait. 

I wonder about the argument that you would need to have good draft evaluators to take advantage of a trade back (out of the top 5), and the worst 5 teams usually don’t have talented evaluators.  
 

Most likely, we’re better off taking Young because we won’t get offers that blow us away.  However, if the team thinks we’re better off with Okudah, and something like a 3rd this year and 1st next year... I’m cool with that.  This is partly because I sort of trust our drafting ability.  
 

Point being, I think it’s sensible to consider a trade back... which means it’s a sensible discussion point, at least IMO.  

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15 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

I wonder about the argument that you would need to have good draft evaluators to take advantage of a trade back (out of the top 5), and the worst 5 teams usually don’t have talented evaluators.  
 

Most likely, we’re better off taking Young because we won’t get offers that blow us away.  However, if the team thinks we’re better off with Okudah, and something like a 3rd this year and 1st next year... I’m cool with that.  This is partly because I sort of trust our drafting ability.  
 

Point being, I think it’s sensible to consider a trade back... which means it’s a sensible discussion point, at least IMO.  

 

It’s dangerous to start attributing too much skill to our recent draft success. As McCloughan has intimated countless times, the draft is a crapshoot.  He’s actually a pretty good example of that. Even though he was lauded for his drafts with the 49ers and his assistance building the Seahawks juggernaut, his drafts were pretty pedestrian here.

 

I like Kyle Smith, but I think it would be a mistake to make major, franchise-altering, decisions based on his perceived “skill” at drafting.  Even our best pick last year, McLaurin was considered no better than a special teams ace and depth at WR, and was drafted as such. It was a pleasant surprise to all involved that he turned out the way he did, but that doesn’t mean Smith was smarter than the rest of league in drafting him, just that we lucked out as other GMs have in the past with other mid-round and late-round prospects. 

 

More often than not, when you trade back, you end up with a lesser player than you otherwise would have gotten, like getting Kerrigan instead of Watt or Trent Murphy instead of Demarcus Lawrence or Crowder instead of Tyler Lockett, etc.  And it’s often the case that the total value of the extra player(s) you receive in the trade don’t equal the difference in the player you gave up and the player you drafted instead. 

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37 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I think that’s where the argument disconnect lies. I, like you, am all for drafting Chase. It’s not like any of us are saying we don’t acknowledge his potential. But we have a chance to add a plethora of additional picks while still having the option of drafting an impact player like Okudah then it should at least be considered.

This talk is kind of blowing my mind. Chase is hands down the best prospect in this draft class and 30 other teams (not the bengals, they need burrows) are in envy of our good fortune. I live in ny now and my giants fan buddies couldn’t be angrier at how the end of the season played out. The fact that they not only blew their chance at chase, but that they will now likely see him twice a year in b&g tears them up.

 

we have enough average talent on this team, we’ve been dying for a game changer type. It is very possible, if not probable, that chase singlehandedly brings this D up a notch. 
 

The hypothetical that we trade back for a bounty of picks and still land okudah is extremely far fetched. Okudah is top 3-5, we’re not getting a haul to trade back a few picks... unless Bruce Allen winds up with the lions. Even then I’d be very hard pressed to pass up a guy of chase’s caliber.

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What if the Lions..or even Giants fall in love with Chase and give a haul to the Bengals. 

 

There would be a bidding war for our pick. if the Dolphins are staying in place for Tua, the Bengals might have the ammo to move back up and still come on top from trading down from #1. 

 

Sounds crazy, but the hype on Chase has been crazy. There are some crazy Owners and GMs out there. 

 

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In the last 5 years drafts, of the top 5 players (25 players) a grand total of 5 are in the playoffs. 3 of them aren’t even starting (Corey Davis, Marcus Mariota, Solomon Thomas). Only Bosa and Wentz are.

 

Picking the sure thing no matter how generational isn’t guaranteed.

Edited by PartyPosse

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13 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

In the last 5 years drafts, of the top 5 players (25 players) a grand total of 5 are in the playoffs. 3 of them aren’t even starting (Corey Davis, Marcus Mariota, Solomon Thomas). Only Bosa and Wentz are.

 

Picking the sure thing no matter how generational isn’t guaranteed.

 

This is a silly argument for trading back. List the teams in the playoffs that have recently traded back when they had a top 5 pick. 

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31 minutes ago, ShredSkins said:

What if the Lions..or even Giants fall in love with Chase and give a haul to the Bengals. 

 

There would be a bidding war for our pick. if the Dolphins are staying in place for Tua, the Bengals might have the ammo to move back up and still come on top from trading down from #1. 

 

Sounds crazy, but the hype on Chase has been crazy. There are some crazy Owners and GMs out there. 

 

Giving a boatload to Cindy is not going to get them Barrow. If CY is gone at 1 overall then we would be offered the boatload I assume for Barrow as there has to be at least 2 teams that want him. If someone jumps over us for CY there is nothing you can do, the decision is made for you. We would then use our boatload to get the corner from Ohio and the best safety. Hopefully get a 2 and pick up a O lineman. 

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16 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

This is a silly argument for trading back. List the teams in the playoffs that have recently traded back when they had a top 5 pick. 

The Rams were in the SB last year and they traded back with us in the RG3 deal. Was he a can't mis prospect. The Rams also gave away a ton of pics to move up for Goth or whatever his name is. The Eagles moved up for Wentz.

 

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All QBs. Only way trade back is an option in my opinion is if burrow is there at #2, meaning Young goes #1. In which case both sides agree, trade back. Burrow at 2 is where you get the Haul of picks

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1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

I’m getting pretty sick of the “TRADE BACK” crowd. Regardless of how you feel about Young, trading back lowers your chances to hit on a pick significantly.  The Browns and Rams (RGIII trade) can attest to this. 

 

Please list some recent success stories of a team trading down from a top 5 pick and ending up being better off for it. I’ll wait. 

2018 draft, Colts traded back with the Jets, They drafted Nelson HOF talent, Braden Smith-good starter, Turay-rotational d line, rock ya sin-good starter. Made the playoffs and rebuilt line in 2018. 

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1 minute ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

The Rams were in the SB last year and they traded back with us in the RG3 deal. Was he a can't mis prospect. The Rams also gave away a ton of pics to move up for Goth or whatever his name is. The Eagles moved up for Wentz.

 

 

This is actually a perfect example to further my point. Even with that historic haul they received, the only player from the trade that was still on the Rams when they played in the Super Bowl was Michael Brockers. And instead of making that trade, they could have drafted Fletcher Cox, Luke Kuechly, or Stephon Gilmore, any of which could easily have been the difference needed to win the Super Bowl last year. 

 

 

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53 minutes ago, ShredSkins said:

What if the Lions..or even Giants fall in love with Chase and give a haul to the Bengals. 

 

There would be a bidding war for our pick. if the Dolphins are staying in place for Tua, the Bengals might have the ammo to move back up and still come on top from trading down from #1. 

 

Sounds crazy, but the hype on Chase has been crazy. There are some crazy Owners and GMs out there. 

 


here’s how you stop that from happening: make it perfectly clear to Cincy that if they trade out of the top pick, we will either take Burrow ourselves or trade our #2 pick to the highest, non-Cincy bidder.  That would pretty much settle it.

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Just now, OtisDriftwood25 said:

2018 draft, Colts traded back with the Jets, They drafted Nelson HOF talent, Braden Smith-good starter, Turay-rotational d line, rock ya sin-good starter. Made the playoffs and rebuilt line in 2018. 

 

That was the only one I could think of too. But in hindsight, they would have been much better off staying put and drafting Lamar Jackson, Darnold, and Josh Allen. Obviously, they couldn’t have known Luck would retire, but they’re not exactly reaping the benefits of the trade right now in terms of team success. 

 

More importantly, they were in a completely different situation in that mock drafts consistently had them taking Quenton Nelson whether they took him at #3 or traded back to get him later. That was always going to be their guy. We don’t have that luxury with Chase. It’s a fact that if we trade back, he’s gone. 

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58 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

It’s dangerous to start attributing too much skill to our recent draft success. As McCloughan has intimated countless times, the draft is a crapshoot.  He’s actually a pretty good example of that. Even though he was lauded for his drafts with the 49ers and his assistance building the Seahawks juggernaut, his drafts were pretty pedestrian here.

 

I like Kyle Smith, but I think it would be a mistake to make major, franchise-altering, decisions based on his perceived “skill” at drafting.  Even our best pick last year, McLaurin was considered no better than a special teams ace and depth at WR, and was drafted as such. It was a pleasant surprise to all involved that he turned out the way he did, but that doesn’t mean Smith was smarter than the rest of league in drafting him, just that we lucked out as other GMs have in the past with other mid-round and late-round prospects. 

 

More often than not, when you trade back, you end up with a lesser player than you otherwise would have gotten, like getting Kerrigan instead of Watt or Trent Murphy instead of Demarcus Lawrence or Crowder instead of Tyler Lockett, etc.  And it’s often the case that the total value of the extra player(s) you receive in the trade don’t equal the difference in the player you gave up and the player you drafted instead. 

You are right that you may get a inferior player but the deal is that you get more than 1 pick for your high pick. The therory is that you get 2 or more players for your 1 pick. It is so hard to build a bad team just taking 1 player at a time. Then by the time he matures he leaves so you are back at square 1.How much did L Collins help us this year? We would have been better off getting 3 guys with that money that could fill in for all the injuries. Only needing one real good guy is great for a real good team but how much is one good guy going to help us when 3 could really make a diff. By the way, you still have to pick good players which is hard. Not helping yourself getting rid of the 2nd overall pick and then blowing the picks you get on bums. Another thing to consider is how it hurt us when RG3 went down. How would you feel if you turned down a boatload for CY and he got hurt big time. 

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15 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

This is actually a perfect example to further my point. Even with that historic haul they received, the only player from the trade that was still on the Rams when they played in the Super Bowl was Michael Brockers. And instead of making that trade, they could have drafted Fletcher Cox, Luke Kuechly, or Stephon Gilmore, any of which could easily have been the difference needed to win the Super Bowl last year. 

 

 

Getting a boatload of pics does not guarantee you of getting good players. You still have to do a good job drafting. Hell you could get 6 guys and they could be busts or you could get a bunch of pro bowl players. You just have better odds with more players from the carrier ending injury thing.

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45 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

This is a silly argument for trading back. List the teams in the playoffs that have recently traded back when they had a top 5 pick. 

No it’s not a fool proof argument about the effectiveness of a top 5 pick but more the importance of not so much depth but not having a glaring weakness. You look at the top teams, Baltimore, New Orleans, KC... they’re all well-rounded and not really exploitable.

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"Boatload" refers to an extra pick in that paragraph. If its not a QB its not going to be a boatload

 

If Tua hadn't gotten hurt....man we would be in hog heaven with opportunity

Edited by Gibbit

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@50yrSKINSfan @PartyPosse

 

You both mention depth (or avoiding weaknesses), but depth means little if your roster can’t even realistically compete for a Super Bowl appearance when fully healthy. Building depth is much easier than acquiring perennial All Pros. When is the last time we had a first-team All Pro on this roster? The teams @PartyPosse mentioned (Baltimore, Saints, KC) all have multiple All Pros on their roster. That is what allows you to compete with the big boys. Otherwise, we’ll just field a team of B and C-level players and never accomplish anything meaningful.  The league is already full of those teams. 

 

When ens you have a chance to draft a potential perennial All Pro, you take it and don’t look back. 

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