Burgold

Will the coaching be good enough for the talent?

Recommended Posts

That's my biggest fear. I can't remember a game where I thought. Jay really won that chess match or Manusky really outschemed his opponent. They say a great quarterback can elevate the play of everyone around them. Likewise, a great coach makes the whole better than the parts. During the glory years, Gibbs teams were never rated all that highly talent-wise. They were considered a team full of good, but not great players. I remember when Matt Millen came over for the 91 season saying, he'd never seen so many "B" players. Now, Millen has since proved himself an iffy judge of talent, but if the HOF is any judge, the Redskins' pantry was pretty threadbare.

 

Fast forward to today. On paper, this team has real strengths especially on the D line and front seven. Will Manusky coach to this defense's talent level, make it even better, or will we struggle. Last year, the defense (other than Dunbar) didn't really suffer that many injuries. At the end of the year, it was helpless. It was pathetic. As bad as any Haslett D. Did the D give up on him? Was the playcalling as bad or even worse than Swearinger suggested?

 

On offense, Gruden actually adjusted in 2018. For years, he refused to ever run the ball. Last year, he did. Now, I think a lot of that was Smith checking to a run because once Alex got hurt we returned to our pass happy ways under Colt and even Josh Johnson. Still, in game adjustments were rare. Game to game adjustments were rare. And like I said at the top, I don't recall a game (Maybe Jacksonville?) where I thought... wow, the coach won that game. That was masterful!

 

My question is simple. Can Jay and Greg do it? Are they good enough to maximize the talent there? Are they good enough to scheme around weaknesses? Are they good enough to find and exploit the weaknesses of opposing O's and D's?

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Okay so I didn't even read the post just the thread title and I agree already..the first couple words was something that I fear the most and that has ran across my mind.. when I'm not delivering milk for the farm I will take time to read it..

Edited by bakedtater1
Add content

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Still wish we'd bring in Joey Porter to coach the OLB's... I have faith in the D-line and growth with Tomsula... Have to imagine Manusky has a chip on his shoulder after nearly getting canned if we would've nabbed the candidates we interviewed.

 

Callahan has some tools to work with on the Oline. I truly believe Martin will will the LG spot. Two maulers at Guard and two earth movers on the Tackle positions, good center who has potential to elevate. 

 

The FS slot worries me and I am not sure we have the talent to coach up to fill that role. Same with WR. We seem to have a bunch of JAGs at WR. Fingers crossed the new guys can contribute right away.

 

Runnings Backs coach will have his hands full with the All-Spaghetti leg team.

  • Haha 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Gruden is an above average offensive coach. Give him something to work with and we'll put up points.

 

Not as high on Manusky though. He's average at best. Bring in someone like Gregg Williams and this D could be top 10, MAYBE top 5.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jay actually does like to run the ball but for most of his tenure we have had sub par talent in the run game and so he would check into the passing game mostly through frustration but he does like to run it.

 

I am higher on Jay than most here but I think he has a weakness with game management.  For the talent at his disposal I believe he is an excellent game planner and I would put him in the top 10 offensive minds when it comes to play design, specifically around getting multiple targets open.  What hurts Jay is that his play calling in game is subpar because I think he has too much on his plate.  McVay deserves some credit obviously but when he was here and we were putting up big numbers he was calling Jay's plays, he just benefitted from being free to focus on the offense only.  I would personally feel a lot better going forward if O'Connell was handed play calling responsibilities and Jay focused on the big picture in games.

 

Manusky on the other hand is simply lost.  If we don't open with 4 or 5 wins in our first 6 games I strongly believe he will be let go and either Horton or Ryan will be asked to step up.  We clearly would have fired him if Bowles had not chosen Tampa over us and with 2 new guys with DC experience in the building Manusky is on a very hot seat to start the season and rightly so.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How many games do you expect Trent Williams to be able to play this year? 5? 10?

Who will start at LG? Shar Ereck Pourdanesh Flowers?

Will Moses stay healthy?

No amount of coaching will compensate for what will be a disaster on the OL.

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1
  • Sad 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I expect Williams, Moses, Scherff and Roullier to play 16 games each and we have plenty of candidates to find a LG from.  I mean if you are just going to assume the worst before training camp even starts you might as well put a grand on Washington for the first pick next year and take a 12 month vacation from watching the team.

  • Haha 4
  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Williams hasn't played 16 games in what, 4 years? Nsekhe is gone.

Scherff and Roullier are solid, to be sure, but sooner or later it will be Allen muttering "sacks and stuff."

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah I fear that too.

Both Jay and manusky seem to be one spot ahead of where they belong on the coaching depth chart.

I agree that when the going gets tough and they get punched in the mouth so to speak they seem to wilt instead of get back up and shine.

No other explanation for that ass kicking the giants put on us last year, they sucked something awful last year and they looked like the best team in the league against us at least for a half anyway. 

 

You can't blame injuries when another team who should have given up by now puts an ass whooping on you, that's on the coaches who are supposed to have the team ready to fight.

 

I've seen too many games like that for me to believe Gruden has what it takes to win any big game much less a dogfight in the playoffs.

 

I agree with most pundits that this is a lame duck year for Gruden and we'll see a new coach in 2020 most likely with an entirely new staff.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, SemperFi Skins said:

Still wish we'd bring in Joey Porter to coach the OLB's... I have faith in the D-line and growth with Tomsula... Have to imagine Manusky has a chip on his shoulder after nearly getting canned if we would've nabbed the candidates we interviewed.

 

Callahan has some tools to work with on the Oline. I truly believe Martin will will the LG spot. Two maulers at Guard and two earth movers on the Tackle positions, good center who has potential to elevate. 

 

The FS slot worries me and I am not sure we have the talent to coach up to fill that role. Same with WR. We seem to have a bunch of JAGs at WR. Fingers crossed the new guys can contribute right away.

 

Runnings Backs coach will have his hands full with the All-Spaghetti leg team.

The Steelers management fired Porter for all of his antics, not sure we want him. How bout London Fletcher or Jeremiah Trotter?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I think why generally Jay Gruden and Greg Manusky are regarded as good coaches around the organization is because of what and how they coach on the practice field. I don't think Jay has enough to work with to be honest, he legitimately needs Pro-bowl caliber Jordan Reed to come back, an NFL #1 WR, a healthy Offensive Line and not to mention solid QB play. What he's been working with would be tough for any offensive coach, and obviously we've had our fair share of injuries. I'm still not 100% sure on him with a headset on for some reason, but it does seem like some of the credit that should be given to Jay was almost all given to Kyle Shanahan and Sean Mcvay when they were here for the offense. I think Jay needs good assistants like any coach to succeed. 

 

Manusky on the other hand has MUCH more to work with. His seat shouldn't be warm right now (because that's unfair pressure before the season starts), but if by mid-season if this isn't a top 10 defense his seat should definitely start heating up very quickly. This is easily the most talented defense we've had in years, maybe more talented than what Gregg Williams had when we had a top 5 defense in the mid 2000s. I think this team took what Wade Phillips said to heart when he said we lacked defensive talent, because we turned that around QUICK. I'd like to see more fire out of Greg, players respond to Jim Tomsula's in your face style and respect the hell out of it. It keeps them engaged, so I guess that's a slight issue I have with Manusky. I also don't trust him with a headset, I noticed very early on last season that any above average QB absolutely shredded our defense last year. Coverage schemes are definitely not his thing. 

 

Developing talent is mostly all about the assistants anyways and we have two good ones in Jim Tomsula and to a slightly lesser extent Bill Callahan. In some areas we're fine and some areas i'm a bit more concerned with our assistant. For example, how do you look at Rob Ryan's big ol' gut and get motivated when someone like that is trying to motivate you? Our QB coach is a mystery to me, so hopefully he can develop Haskins but honestly who knows. We'll just have to see right now, DL and our OL when healthy are about the only places i'm truly confident right now. The talent is indeed everywhere though

Edited by Burgundy Yoda
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Preparation and game planning/scheming seem to be there.

 

In game adjustments, clock management, killer instincts seem to never be there.

 

Always a glimpse of what could be, but never see consistency.

 

Coaching staff looks lost during game time and 3 hours after.

 

But I will always remain cautiously optimistic.

 

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JoeJacobyHOForRIOT said:

Boy its tough to answer this question when we have been the most injured team in the NFL for what, 2 , 3 seasons now......

Part of me wonders what role the lax practices have in that. Do all the vet days off and soft workouts when they are practicing lead to players not being game ready or players lacking in endurance/focus. 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The easy answer here is no.   And you're right.   We get out game planned on the regular.    We get out adjusted at halftime as a norm.   We are a "system" team.   I do think Gruden's system is fine and we can win with it if we are healthy-ish.   But there will be games other teams just roll us because they prep a specific thing we don't prep a specific answer to.   Defensively I have great fear.   The defensive personnel we have means we have to be better than Manusky will ultimately coach them to be.   But maybe there's enough ability to accidentally make Top 10 in spite of coaching.   I just suspect if we're like 18 or 19 overall on defense that will be like No. 1 or No. 2 for a real coach :).   I have no faith in Manusky at all.   If Rob Ryan can get him to call some aggressive plays we'll at least be exciting and the personnel does lend itself to a number of bear fronts and pressure.

 

Which of course means we'll play none of that and wonder why it's not working.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Burgold said:

That's my biggest fear. I can't remember a game where I thought. Jay really won that chess match or Manusky really outschemed his opponent. They say a great quarterback can elevate the play of everyone around them. Likewise, a great coach makes the whole better than the parts. During the glory years, Gibbs teams were never rated all that highly talent-wise. They were considered a team full of good, but not great players. I remember when Matt Millen came over for the 91 season saying, he'd never seen so many "B" players. Now, Millen has since proved himself an iffy judge of talent, but if the HOF is any judge, the Redskins' pantry was pretty threadbare.

 

Fast forward to today. On paper, this team has real strengths especially on the D line and front seven. Will Manusky coach to this defense's talent level, make it even better, or will we struggle. Last year, the defense (other than Dunbar) didn't really suffer that many injuries. At the end of the year, it was helpless. It was pathetic. As bad as any Haslett D. Did the D give up on him? Was the playcalling as bad or even worse than Swearinger suggested?

 

On offense, Gruden actually adjusted in 2018. For years, he refused to ever run the ball. Last year, he did. Now, I think a lot of that was Smith checking to a run because once Alex got hurt we returned to our pass happy ways under Colt and even Josh Johnson. Still, in game adjustments were rare. Game to game adjustments were rare. And like I said at the top, I don't recall a game (Maybe Jacksonville?) where I thought... wow, the coach won that game. That was masterful!

 

My question is simple. Can Jay and Greg do it? Are they good enough to maximize the talent there? Are they good enough to scheme around weaknesses? Are they good enough to find and exploit the weaknesses of opposing O's and D's?

.

 

We've got excellent assistants across the board, practically.

Unfortunately, my only concerns about coaching are at the top : Jay and Greg.

However, I am not as low on them, as many people.

I have hope that they have become better with experience, and that as fans our skewed viewpoint is a biased version of how good they really are.

And a 3rd reason I maintain hope in them, is they have had to deal with a lot of adversity and distractions over the past couple years.

Sure, all coaches deal with that. But with this team, it's been off the charts.

I am neither totally sold on them, nor have I totally given up on them.

I believe the upcoming season will say a lot more, when it comes to how good our 2 coaches at the top really are

21 minutes ago, Art said:

If Rob Ryan can get him to call some aggressive plays we'll at least be exciting and the personnel does lend itself to a number of bear fronts and pressure.

 

 

 

If Rob Ryan can't convince Greg to become more aggressive, will Rob become the aggressive one and punch Greg, just like his Dad did, to one of his associate coaches.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Doubtful. I don't think Jay is the kind of guy to tailor his offense to his players. He is decent though. 

 

Watch what happens in Arizona this year... it's gonna be air raid central and it is gonna be explosive despite the lack of talent there. 

 

On defense the results haven't been great; the lack of a competent offense really hurt us last year.. the guys never got a break.

 

We have the talent to be a top 5 defense this season. If it doesn't happen I'm looking for a replacement. 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I predict that the talent will make the coaches look better than they really are in the eyes of a lot of fans.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I don't buy into the assumption that the Redskins are a talented team.  I think the defense is good but the offense is bereft of proven healthy NFL talent.  Exhibit #1 is the OL that spent 2018 & 2017 on life support.  Who knows what this unit can do in 2019?  It takes more optimism than I can muster to expect better this year.

 

Exhibit #2 the Redskins starting quarterback is either a former 1-year college starter in his rookie NFL season, a journeyman in his first season with the Skins after playing for 5 different teams during the previous 7 years, a career backup who has played in 4 games during the last 4 years who is coming back from a broken leg or a veteran starter who is recovering from a broken leg injury so horrific that no one expects to ever play again.  I think their best bet in 2019 is Case Keenum but it could get really ugly by November.

 

What about the rest?  Exhibit #3 the Skins have a couple of good tight ends but one of them is rarely healthy.  Exhibit #4 the Skins have a 34-year-old future HOF running back who still is very talented in spots preparing to play his 13th season but after him only a couple of draft picks we haven't seen on the field yet that are overcoming leg injuries and finally Exhibit #5 a motley crew of somewhats, maybes, and never been guys playing receiver.  It could all work out in 2019 of course.

Edited by Veryoldschool
  • Like 4
  • Thanks 2
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My two cents. I’m not sure any coach will thrive here. It’s sad. The front office has taken my hope away despite a good draft.  I’m sure Gruden is gone at the end of a sub 500 season and the terrible reality is no excellent young coaches or proven top notch coach will want the job. They will probably have to hire another reach.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Absolutely Brilliant Thread!

 

Especially on the Defensive side of the ball. As we have continued to amass so much young talent over the past few seasons this Question has crossed my mind. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, posse87 said:

My two cents. I’m not sure any coach will thrive here. It’s sad. The front office has taken my hope away despite a good draft.  I’m sure Gruden is gone at the end of a sub 500 season and the terrible reality is no excellent young coaches or proven top notch coach will want the job. They will probably have to hire another reach.

 

Don't necessarily agree with this. If we promote Smith to GM and he's involved in the networking/hiring, and Haskins flashes giving the impression that the #1 toughest piece to acquire is in place...this becomes a top notch destination despite Snyder. Look at the perception of the Browns with Baker flashing and Dorsey having the respect of the league. Our draft pick assets and cap situation won't be as enticing as the Browns were but the rest is a pretty decent parallel. That was easily viewed as the #1 job on the market. 

 

Now if we keep Allen in charge (and/or lose Kyle Smith) and Haskins looks like QB purgatory personified...yeah, it gets ugly again like with Zorn, potentially. 

Edited by ConnSKINS26
  • Like 2
  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 5/1/2019 at 10:48 AM, Burgold said:

That's my biggest fear. I can't remember a game where I thought. Jay really won that chess match or Manusky really outschemed his opponent.

 

I think of the Oakland game. I believe it was year before last. Final I think was 28-7 ?

Just one game. And had to go back 2 years.

But it doesn't matter.

What matters is that we won the Super Bowl on paper, with our roster, and we won the offseason.

Because that's what we do. And we did it again. Better than anyone else.

 

Edited by Malapropismic Depository
  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

 

Don't necessarily agree with this. If we promote Smith to GM and he's involved in the networking/hiring, and Haskins flashes giving the impression that the #1 toughest piece to acquire is in place...this becomes a top notch destination despite Snyder. Look at the perception of the Browns with Baker flashing and Dorsey having the respect of the league. Our draft pick assets and cap situation won't be as enticing as the Browns were but the rest is a pretty decent parallel. That was easily viewed as the #1 job on the market. 

 

Now if we keep Allen in charge (and/or lose Kyle Smith) and Haskins looks like QB purgatory personified...yeah, it gets ugly again like with Zorn, potentially. 

That’s a big “if.” The Browns culture started to change when the owner did. I hope we keep Smith. I don’t have faith there is room for him with BA and Snyder around.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/1/2019 at 1:51 PM, JoeJacobyHOForRIOT said:

Boy its tough to answer this question when we have been the most injured team in the NFL for what, 2 , 3 seasons now......

1,000% agreed.  I'm worried about the Strength/Conditioning staff more than any other coaching staff.  Gruden is capable of producing a very good offense, both Pierre and DeSean had 1,000 yard seasons in the same season.  Injuries have constantly bit us for the past 3 seasons.  Strength/Conditioning will be how this team will win or lose this year.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.