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35 minutes ago, Burgold said:

On the other hand, with so much pressure coming up the middle these days the importance of a guard has increased. We saw that for years with some of our turnstyle center and guard play. We were blitzed up the middle all the time. Shortest distance to a straight line and all that.

You mean when we left Rabach in the middle for a few too many years, with 47yo Randy Thomas next to him?

 

Of course C/G is important, but theres a reason OLB rushing specialists are as much of a premium as OTs. 

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Good point but wouldn't you say that a greater emphasis has been placed on interior pressure over the years?

 

Not just removing the abilty for opposing Qbs to step up and avoid outside pressure but also generate sacks through the middle. We haven't even discussed the A gap and Double A gap blitz/stunts which puts a tremendous amount of pressure on your C/G.

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31 minutes ago, SkinsFootball said:

Good point but wouldn't you say that a greater emphasis has been placed on interior pressure over the years?

 

Not just removing the abilty for opposing Qbs to step up and avoid outside pressure but also generate sacks through the middle. We haven't even discussed the A gap and Double A gap blitz/stunts which puts a tremendous amount of pressure on your C/G.

More than outside passrushers?

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I’m excited to see what Piersbacher and Martin can do.  

 

I think @Koolblue13‘s original comment was spot on - essentially, it would be great it if we found ourselves in a position to let Scherff walk because Piersbacher was killing it.  Obviously an incredibly slim chance of that happening, especially since you’d like a LTD worked out (long) before FA.  

 

Ideally, you have a bunch of talented guys that are cheap.  Barring that, you’d rather your big money go to tackles rather than guards.  I don’t think we’re going to find ourselves in a position to do that though.  We’re going to have to pay Scherff, so hopefully that can be mitigated by replacing our tackles in the not too distant future.  

 

While we’d have a span of time in which we’re paying 2-3 guys big money, at least our other starters and backups on the line will be cheap.  Thinking we ought to draft a couple tackles next year.  

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2 hours ago, skinny21 said:

I’m excited to see what Piersbacher and Martin can do.  

 

I think @Koolblue13‘s original comment was spot on - essentially, it would be great it if we found ourselves in a position to let Scherff walk because Piersbacher was killing it.  Obviously an incredibly slim chance of that happening, especially since you’d like a LTD worked out (long) before FA.  

 

Ideally, you have a bunch of talented guys that are cheap.  Barring that, you’d rather your big money go to tackles rather than guards.  I don’t think we’re going to find ourselves in a position to do that though.  We’re going to have to pay Scherff, so hopefully that can be mitigated by replacing our tackles in the not too distant future.  

 

While we’d have a span of time in which we’re paying 2-3 guys big money, at least our other starters and backups on the line will be cheap.  Thinking we ought to draft a couple tackles next year.  

Somehow you gotta find a way to sign your blue-chip players especially if entering into their first contract after their rookie deal.  Losing Scherff will make the team weaker.

 

Hail Em Up!

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2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

More than outside passrushers?

No. I think your missing my point. I agree edge rushers and therefore tackles are traditionally a more premium position then the inside guys.

 

My point is that is not the end all be all. Interior line play on both sides of the ball has had a greater emphasis over recent years. Do I prefer Khalil Mack over Aaron Donald. Yes. but I'm not going to poo poo Aaron Donald either.

 

My original point was that due to the timing and way our current roster is built. We can afford to pay premium money to the RG position. We can draft a Trent Williams replacement in the next two years.. which will alleviate offensive line expenses.

 

The importance of strong interior play on this team is particularly important due to a QB who needs to execute in a structured pocket and a running game that will be our identity.

 

 

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54 minutes ago, arftech said:

Somehow you gotta find a way to sign your blue-chip players especially if entering into their first contract after their rookie deal.  Losing Scherff will make the team weaker.

 

Hail Em Up!

Obviously, this team use as many blue chippers as they can find/keep.  

 

My initial question/response to your post was going to be “even if that blue chip player plays the same spot as another (much cheaper) blue chipper?”

 

But then I’d just move one of them to RG.  Moot point anyway, because there’s just no way in heck Piersbacher is going to prove himself capable of playing at Scherff’s level in his rookie year.  

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I think interior OL play is more important than exterior play, especially if your QB is a traditional pocket passer.  Kollman gives a good explanation as to why at 5:45 in the video below.  

 

However, I do think OT's should be paid more due to the scarcity of good OT's in this league.  Basically, OT's are more valuable because it's extremely hard to find good ones, especially as college offenses have shifted away from pro-style offenses, which stunts the pass-blocking development of your typical college OT.  So while I agree Scherff is a great asset, I can understand and get on board with the argument that we shouldn't overpay, as he would be easier to replace than if we had to replace Trent... or even Moses to be honest.

 

 

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1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said:

I think interior OL play is more important than exterior play, especially if your QB is a traditional pocket passer.  Kollman gives a good explanation as to why at 5:45 in the video below.  

 

However, I do think OT's should be paid more due to the scarcity of good OT's in this league.  Basically, OT's are more valuable because it's extremely hard to find good ones, especially as college offenses have shifted away from pro-style offenses, which stunts the pass-blocking development of your typical college OT.  So while I agree Scherff is a great asset, I can understand and get on board with the argument that we shouldn't overpay, as he would be easier to replace than if we had to replace Trent... or even Moses to be honest.

 

 

It's interesting that use that video as support, considering it's saying that Quinton Nelson is a key to Luck's improvement.

Because of this stat about the other OL we drafted ; Martin.

 

In 2017, among the 298 major college offensive guards to start at least five games, only the Hoosier Martin and Notre Dame's Quenton Nelson did not allow their quarterback to get sacked. Martin accomplished that feat while being on the field for 569 pass snaps. Nelson only appeared in 352 aerial plays.

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Touted this pick for ages. 42 starts at LG before moving to C. 

 

Think we've got a good one onto the roster here, knows what he's doing on a football field. Takes more than superstars to win. Damn good player here.

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OTs have easier assignments than they used to because of how shotgun heavy offenses are now.  They're overvalued by the league, and their cost is a market inefficiency that the smart teams like the Patriots exploit.  They traded sixth round positioning for Trent Brown and used him as the LT for an elite OL.  The season ends and now Oakland is paying 16 million a year for him.

 

You don't have to be fast any more to play OT.  You just have to be big and able to handle power counters reasonably well.  You can get all of the help you need from six man protections when you get matched up with  Von Miller.

 

OGs are undervalued.  B Gap rush has become the premium rusher position in the era of shotgun spreads and Aaron Donald and you can't scheme in help for a guard with your Y.  Nor can you abandon your Y to handle the edge rush by comboing the B gap.  These are individual match ups that your guards have to win.  You need two great interior linemen to handle interior pressure.  Losing Scherff would be a massive blow.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

It's interesting that use that video as support, considering it's saying that Quinton Nelson is a key to Luck's improvement.

Because of this stat about the other OL we drafted ; Martin.

 

In 2017, among the 298 major college offensive guards to start at least five games, only the Hoosier Martin and Notre Dame's Quenton Nelson did not allow their quarterback to get sacked. Martin accomplished that feat while being on the field for 569 pass snaps. Nelson only appeared in 352 aerial plays.

 

Not sure you’re completely getting my point. I said I think interior OL is more important, and therefore agree with the video. I just said a good interior O-lineman is easier to replace. 

 

EDIT: It's possible I misread your post.  Not really sure if you're using my post as a complement to your point or something else.

Edited by HTTRDynasty

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It’s good to see the kind & gentle folks of the areas coming around on the importance of the interior.

 

On 12/10/2018 at 3:01 PM, volsmet said:

 

I believe the value of guards is higher than its been, if you can keep pressure out of the middle & run in the redzone, you are set up nicely in a league that has QBs able to get rid of the ball so quickly now. A QB can’t do anything with pressure up the middle, that’s what leads to most turnovers & negative plays — it’s also more difficult to help a guard that gets beat than a tackle, it’s easier to help vs Mack than Donald. I don’t think Scherff is a good enough guard to sign long term for elite money, but guard is a position I would invest in. The Colts finally started taking the middle of the line seriously, with elite draft picks, and it’s made all the difference for Luck. Guard is the most underrated position, imo.

 

 

On 1/16/2019 at 4:19 PM, volsmet said:

 

Soon people will value guards as much as tackles. They will still be easier to find, but they won’t be seen as the last piece on a roster for long. The ball comes out quickly, it’s harder to help a guard, it’s easier to knock passes down on the inside, QBs can use the entire field climbing the pocket but can’t do a thing when the middle is collapsed — it’s easier to block ends on shotgun snaps than snaps from under center; games are being won in the middle of the lines. The Saints only advanced because Cox got hurt, you need someone who can do something with the best interior pass rushers. We need a left guard for any young QB, imo.

 

 

On 3/18/2018 at 1:49 PM, volsmet said:

 

Thank you. 

 

Its easy to understand why many would be against it, but I’d venture to guess most of them have said, “you put your best unit out there”, or something similar, a time or two.

 

Callahan appears to have done something special with Ty, I believe it would be unfortunate to leave him on the bench because OT is the more glorified position & Trent is the leader of the offense. If Ty can play like he did in 2016, I find it very hard to believe our best line is not with Trent at guard. I think he’s be quite something at G & we’d be making the most of Callahan’s work & the talent at Redskins park. 

 

If Ty could play guard, I believe we’d have seen it. We know Trent can, and he may be the best in the NFL if he wants to be. In the interest of making Washington the most competitive team possible next year, I think Dallas would prefer to see us with Trent at OT & Luke at G than Ty at OT & Trent at guard. Trent & Brandon could do a lot for young Chase as well. 

 

Im not afraid to get hammered by the ES experts, unleash on me with gusto, I’m pro-discussion & welcome the enthusiasm of the ES cast of characters. I’ve been reading this board for many years. 

 

I mentioned in my first post, I think trading Trent is our best option. If the only thing that matters is winning a title, I’m not going the Joe Thomas route, I’m taking advantage of the leagues desperation for OTs (Solder & Pugh contracts are absurd) & I’m sending Trent to get his SB in exchange for picks in the 2019 & 2020 drafts. 

 

I was in favor of trading Cousins, firing Jay to keep McVay, & trading up for D Watson. I’m no stranger to unpopular positions, I’ve shared them elsewhere but this board is the place to be. Unleash the fury.

 

Again, thank you for the welcome. Few things are more heartwarming than a well placed emoticon. I won’t soon forget the gesture.

 

 

 

 

 

 

giphy.gif

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I know Pierschbacher is smart and started a lot of games, but I don't know that he has the requisite athleticism to be a starter in the NFL. He is small and extremely lacking in explosion and power. His bench press, vertical, 3 cone and short shuttle were all poor, if not embarrassing. I absolutely don't want to see him going against Fletcher Cox. 

 

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/ross-pierschbacher?id=32195049-4560-1339-f6ec-b8948fb7afcd

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14 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

I know Pierschbacher is smart and started a lot of games, but I don't know that he has the requisite athleticism to be a starter in the NFL. He is small and extremely lacking in explosion and power. His bench press, vertical, 3 cone and short shuttle were all poor, if not embarrassing. I absolutely don't want to see him going against Fletcher Cox. 

 

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/ross-pierschbacher?id=32195049-4560-1339-f6ec-b8948fb7afcd

 

Yeah, didn't want to say it but...I honestly won't be surprised if his NFL ceiling is as our eventual long snapper.

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1 hour ago, Anselmheifer said:

I know Pierschbacher is smart and started a lot of games, but I don't know that he has the requisite athleticism to be a starter in the NFL. He is small and extremely lacking in explosion and power. His bench press, vertical, 3 cone and short shuttle were all poor, if not embarrassing. I absolutely don't want to see him going against Fletcher Cox. 

 

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/ross-pierschbacher?id=32195049-4560-1339-f6ec-b8948fb7afcd

 

He tested poorly, but his film is pretty good.  I only checked out 2018, but my hunch is that center is his best position.  He's clean, very smooth move blocker.  I saw a nice first step and no problems reaching his blocks.  I agree that he lacks power, but he wins with his feet and he showed an anchor against A gap rushers without guard help.  He can get shocked by real powerful and physical handfighting but you don't see him ever panic.  He has a really calm and confident presence in the line.

 

He's also more of a wide body than I expected.  His size is solid for a center.  Not like the kids from Miss St and A&M, but he has better bulk and a better frame than the kid from NC State who went in the first round.

 

He's more than the sum of his parts and his film is a nice watch.  I could see him sticking on our roster and working his way into a starting job down the line.  He's trustworthy and the job isn't too big for him.

 

of all the picks we made outside of the first round, I could see Martin and Pierschbacher being the two that stick around long term.

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4 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

I know Pierschbacher is smart and started a lot of games, but I don't know that he has the requisite athleticism to be a starter in the NFL. He is small...

 

He's currently listed at 6.4 / 307lbs, and as a C alongside Dunn and Roullier on the roster with very similar measurables. 

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6 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

I know Pierschbacher is smart and started a lot of games, but I don't know that he has the requisite athleticism to be a starter in the NFL. He is small and extremely lacking in explosion and power. His bench press, vertical, 3 cone and short shuttle were all poor, if not embarrassing. I absolutely don't want to see him going against Fletcher Cox. 

 

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/ross-pierschbacher?id=32195049-4560-1339-f6ec-b8948fb7afcd

 

I found this interesting. Here is an actual scientific study (Ok, it's a grad students Stats research project 🙂 ) on height and weight by position. Unfortunately they lump all Oline - I wish they did it by individual Oline position. Also, there is no date. However, there are other data to support the numbers.  

 

Here is the line for Oline - OL- Avg. Height: 76.75 in Avg. Weight: 314.16 lbs

 

There is another study for 2015 that showed the average height and weight for Oline to be 6' 5" and 315. Brandon Scherff is exactly 6' 5" and 315. Ross still has baby fat. With NFL conditioning and his wide frame he could easily add 5 to 7 lbs without having impact on his quickness. And 6' 4" hardly makes him short. 

 

You are right he does not have great explosion - what he does have is a solid wall mentality. Ans he not slow just deliberate. He gets into his blocks and holds them. While I never saw him pancake anyone I also never saw him get bull rushed (I am sure there are instances of both, I just never saw it in the film I watched on him.) He also never panics which helps him maintain his blocking discipline.

 

5th rd draft picks are generally projects. But he has a great base and is a very cerebral blocker, something I think gets overlooked sometimes. 

 

He may never be anything but a glorified water boy. But it's way to early to make any of those determinations, especially if you want to base that on size - which everything suggests he is just about at the average with room to add a few lbs of muscle if needed. 

 

Oh, and the combine? People make way too much of those numbers. For all we know the guy had the flu that day or ate something bad. Or he just hates those types of dog and pony shows or he was nervous. It's good data but has to be considered with everything else. It seems people - including NFL team officials - are way too ready to throw out several years of playing that's on film based on a few days in Indianapolis. Again, decent data in some ways but I would place more faith in their on field performance. 

 

https://webpages.uidaho.edu/~renaes/251/HON/Student PPTs/Avg NFL ht wt.pdf

 

It's not always the size of the dog in the fight that matters, it's the size of the fight in the dog! Somewhere Jeff Bostic at 6'2" (he was really just over 6'0" but they let him have 6'2") and 245 lbs is kind of chuckling. 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

Interesting to see the broad spectrum of prospective predictions for this guy...

anything from capping out as just a Long Snapper, to a replacement for Scherff The Great. 

"a replacement for Scherff The Great"

 

That's a stretch and I'm not saying you believe this though.

 

Hail Em Up!

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I think he can play guard in a pinch but I don't love him at that position.  I think he'd be well below average there whereas I think he's got the quickness to be a pretty decent center.  He can anchor a power rusher to an extent, but he gave up quite a bit of depth to LSU's nose when he had to single block him.  I would not want to see Ross routinely squaring up with NFL noses at guard.  He's suited to outside zone running at guard, but I don't see him being able to downblock noses successfully.  The power and nasty just isn't there.

 

In my mind he's a center.  His second level accuracy is solid and he's smart and a quality move blocker with excellent coordination.  I think he can compete with Roullier for the C job.

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15 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

Mark my words, whether by injury or otherwise, PierceBlocker will be a starting blocker by the middle of the season.

 

Considering our O-line injuries the past couple of years, this is in no way a big stretch of the imagination.

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17 minutes ago, FireInHisBelly said:

 

Considering our O-line injuries the past couple of years, this is in no way a big stretch of the imagination.

 

I'm a low-risk prediction guy, so I can keep my prediction percentage way up high.

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