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There is no magical bench. Guys don’t get better by sitting anymore. Sorry.

 

Haskins starting this season is the only way he will learn and get better: with actual game experience.

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2 minutes ago, JoggingGod said:

There is no magical bench. Guys don’t get better by sitting anymore. Sorry.

 

Haskins starting this season is the only way he will learn and get better: with actual game experience.

 

Tell that to the 2018 MVP. 

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On 5/9/2019 at 9:14 AM, volsmet said:

 

OSU was able to keep him clean every week & utilize the width of the field to get 4.3/4.4 guys separation from 4.7 guys, that’s unique to the college game. OSU didn’t have all of its speed WRs in this year’s draft, but they still produced 3 of the top 8 40 times at the combine. Haskins had a very low depth of attempt, nearly 3 yards behind Murray, because OSU used the width to get their superior athletes the ball on the move — that’s not going to happen in the NFL, as you are aware.

 

Watching how he develops will be fascinating, I’ve not looked forward to a preseason this much in several years. 

 

This is all true. I didn't think your comment about throwing off platform was on point. I've seen him do it multiple times, I think while watching his Michigan and Washington games and only being a little impressed. I think his real problem isn't an inability to throw off platform, but his feet and hips. His movement skills at time make him look a little big and clumsy. 


In terms of his depth of target however, unlike Daniel Jones, Haskins has a rocket for an arm, and charts of his passing demonstrate excellent accuracy in shallow, middle and deep passes. 

Haskins is smart and seems like a quick study and a super hard worker, both in the film room, and on the field. If he didn't have the depth of target and simplistic looking offense issues, he likely would have gone top 5 and would have been out of reach. If he played for another year at the same level, he likely would have gone top 5. I don't think he's a shoe-in to be successful like P. Manning or Luck, but I think he has a very good chance to be very good and we are lucky we got him at 15. 

 

Also, regarding the Jameis Winston comp, Jameis' problem in the NFL have been INT's and character issues. Those were well demonstrated on the college level as well, and Dwayne has neither. I think the comparison holds only insofar as they are probably similar arm talents and aren't particularly mobile. Also, you have to look at Jameis' character issues and think that affects his preparation. I can't imagine him constantly in film room honing his game. 

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1 minute ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Tell that to the 2018 MVP. 

Mahomes didn’t throw 50 TDs because of Alex Smith. He would have been a stud right away in Andy Reid’s offense. Same deal with Aaron Rodgers.

 

I cant find a single QB in the past 20 years that actually benefited from sitting behind a below average QB for a year.

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11 minutes ago, JoggingGod said:

Mahomes didn’t throw 50 TDs because of Alex Smith. He would have been a stud right away in Andy Reid’s offense. Same deal with Aaron Rodgers.

 

I cant find a single QB in the past 20 years that actually benefited from sitting behind a below average QB for a year.

 

Sorry, but this is ridiculous. 

 

Mahomes was considered a QB with unlimited potential as a prospect, but was also someone that needed a good amount of improvement with his footwork in the pocket. I’ll let him tell it:

 

“You see Tom Brady, you see Alex, you see all those guys in the pocket how quick they are with their footwork and how they get the ball out fast,” Mahomes told reporters after practice on Wednesday. “I have to get like that.”

 

https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2017/5/31/15718874/compare-alex-smith-and-tyler-brays-dropback-with-patrick-mahomes

 

As for Rodgers, McCarthy and the QB coaches in GB completely overhauled his mechanics and footwork in the time he sat behind Favre. Go back and watch his college film vs how he looked his first year starting in the league. His mechanics are night and day. No one can convince me he would be who he is today if he was thrown to the wolves right away before cleaning up his fundamentals like you want to do with Haskins. 

 

The kid kid has a chance to be truly special if he develops the right way, yet it seems most of our fans want to sacrifice long-term success for short-term gain. I shouldn’t be surprised, but I am. 

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Haskins feet work, hips, and overall balance in the pocket appear to be problem areas for him. His natural instinct is to abandon needed skills above resulting in being in poor position to make throws at times. 

 

In my opinion, these are things most average to above guys struggle with, so its not a terrible baseline and him being 20 years old provides some hope these skills can be improved on as a pro (not a guarantee, most don’t). I can see the above things being reason why some say to sit him for a year. 

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This whole debate about Haskins starting, or not is one of the most pointless things I've ever seen.

We don't know what the heck will happen once Training Camp starts. Both Haskins and Keenum could look like ass during the competition, just like both of them could look great.

Also, I will never forget what happened in Seattle in 2012. Seahawks signed Matt Flynn to a huge contract, and he was soundly beaten in an open competition by 4th Round pick Russell Wilson. Sure, Wilson may have been more experience, but if a rookie QB can beat out Matt Flynn after the hype he had entering that season, I'm not going to automatically give Case Keenum the job; especially without seeing what Haskins can do yet, and what Keenum can do in this offense.

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, CrypticVillain said:

This whole debate about Haskins starting, or not is one of the most pointless things I've ever seen.

We don't know what the heck will happen once Training Camp starts. Both Haskins and Keenum could look like ass during the competition, just like both of them could look great.

Also, I will never forget what happened in Seattle in 2012. Seahawks signed Matt Flynn to a huge contract, and he was soundly beaten in an open competition by 4th Round pick Russell Wilson. Sure, Wilson may have been more experience, but if a rookie QB can beat out Matt Flynn after the hype he had entering that season, I'm not going to automatically give Case Keenum the job; especially without seeing what Haskins can do yet, and what Keenum can do in this offense.

 

I agree that the best player should play, but the Russell Wilson comp isn't a 100% match.  I think what some here are concerned about (admittedly, it gives me some pause, too) is that Haskins really only played 1 full year as a college QB.  Granted, it was an amazing year, but it's a bit of limited experience.  Russell Wilson played a lot at NCSU and then one year at Wisconsin.  Wilson played 50 games in college across 4 seasons, Haskins played in 14 last year and 8 the year before....and the 8 the year before, he only attempted 57 passes.  

 

The thing that makes me feel confident is that Haskins' small sample size in 2017 correlates well with what he did last year.  He completed the same percent of his balls (70.2 in 2017, 70.0 in 2018) and the yards per attempt are highly similar, too.  He's been good since the start.

 

So, IMO, if the coaches feel that Haskins should be the Week 1 starter, well...awesome.  But if they think he needs to work on things and learn some stuff, well, that's fine too.  I think we're all excited here but I am pretty confident that no matter what, we'll see Haskins under center at some point this season.  

Edited by Spaceman Spiff
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So this stuff has probably already been posted somewhere on the site, but while we're talking Haskins and scouting reports I found this one interesting and informative. 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/draft-dwayne-haskins-isnt-a-finished-product-but-still-possesses-a-valuable-skillset-worth-taking-early-in-the-draft

 

There's a lot to digest, but here's some of the stuff that mimics what others have said with regard to things he needs to improve. 

 

HE BAD

While clean-pocket play is more stable and predictive, performance under pressure is still an important piece of the equation. This is where the drop-off in Haskins’ play is alarming, as that clean-pocket passing grade of 90.7 drops to only 55.7 when pressured. His passer rating dropped from 135.4 to only 73.2, almost double the usual drop-off at the NFL level.

Playing under pressure can take on many forms, and Haskins does not have the athletic ability to make plays outside of structure. However, there are a few highlight-reel plays on his film. Overall, this will not be a big part of Haskins’ game and a significant reason he’s below Murray in our rankings. Murray’s dynamic athleticism adds value when throwing on the move or taking off as a runner.

The bigger concern for Haskins is when he moves off the spot, where his grade plummets to 54.1, and this includes simple plays where he has to reset in the pocket.

As impressive as his backside dig route was in the earlier clip, watch him reset in the pocket and overthrow his receiver against Nebraska.

HASKINS-NEB.gif

The following play may be even more concerning, as Haskins is working from a clean pocket, and the “pressure” on the play is his own doing. Instead of calmly hitting his running back in the flat, Haskins panics and steps up into the pressure, forcing the unnecessary hit and underthrow on what should have been an easy completion.

HASKINS-MSU.gif

In addition to Haskins’ inconsistent performance under pressure, he also struggled in a number of key road games last season. He posted identical 62.8 grades at Michigan State and at Purdue to go with a poor 44.9 overall grade at Penn State that saw him pick up over 80 percent of his yards after the catch in the comeback that had more to do with Haskins’ playmakers than his actual performance.

The other part of Haskins’ game that needs improvement is his deep passing, as he was below average in terms of accuracy last season. This isn’t a major concern as deep passing numbers can be driven by wide receiver talent and scheme, so as long as Haskins remains efficient in the short and intermediate range, he can stumble into a few strong years throwing the ball down the field.

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1 hour ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

I agree that the best player should play, but the Russell Wilson comp isn't a 100% match.  I think what some here are concerned about (admittedly, it gives me some pause, too) is that Haskins really only played 1 full year as a college QB.  Granted, it was an amazing year, but it's a bit of limited experience.  Russell Wilson played a lot at NCSU and then one year at Wisconsin.  Wilson played 50 games in college across 4 seasons, Haskins played in 14 last year and 8 the year before....and the 8 the year before, he only attempted 57 passes.  

 

Good post.  Russell Wilson also had:

1. His legs to rely on when things broke down in the pocket.

2. The read-option to rely on when teams were still trying to figure out how to stop it.

3.  The best running attack in the league.

4.  The best defense in the league.

 

Those are some major crutches for a 1st year QB, which takes the pressure off of mastering the game from the pocket right away.  All things Haskins either definitely doesn't have or likely won't have.

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3 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Good post.  Russell Wilson also had:

1. His legs to rely on when things broke down in the pocket.

2. The read-option to rely on when teams were still trying to figure out how to stop it.

3.  The best running attack in the league.

4.  The best defense in the league.

 

Those are some major crutches for a 1st year QB, which takes the pressure off of mastering the game from the pocket right away.  All things Haskins either definitely doesn't have or likely won't have.

 

We have the makings of a great defense and if healthy, Guice, Peterson, Thompson and Bryce Love is a great running back core. If everything breaks right, Haskins could have a really good situation. If we have another tough season from and injury standpoint, or the defense underperforms, we could be picking top 5 like ESPN/NFL.com/everybody predict. Obviously that would imply a not-great year by Haskins. 

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3 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

 

We have the makings of a great defense and if healthy, Guice, Peterson, Thompson and Bryce Love is a great running back core. If everything breaks right, Haskins could have a really good situation. If we have another tough season from and injury standpoint, or the defense underperforms, we could be picking top 5 like ESPN/NFL.com/everybody predict. Obviously that would imply a not-great year by Haskins. 

 

That's why I said "likely won't have" instead of definitely.  Definitely won't have = anything to do with his legs compared to Wilson.  Likely won't have = best rushing attack and defense. 

 

I agree we could be top 10 or so though in both categories, which would help for sure.  But I listed the "QB running" two factors first for a reason.  There are very very few strictly pocket QB's who come into the league and light it up immediately.  There are many who never reach their ceiling because they never had time to fix mechanics/footwork before being asked to fix all those things with the threat of 300-pound men trying to put them in the hospital.  Haskins badly needs to clean those things up before it's too late.  I'm willing to sacrifice 2019 for that if it gives us the chance to become a perennial SB contender long-term.

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For anybody interested you can watch the rookie TC live here.

 

 

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43 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

So this stuff has probably already been posted somewhere on the site, but while we're talking Haskins and scouting reports I found this one interesting and informative. 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/draft-dwayne-haskins-isnt-a-finished-product-but-still-possesses-a-valuable-skillset-worth-taking-early-in-the-draft

 

There's a lot to digest, but here's some of the stuff that mimics what others have said with regard to things he needs to improve. 

 

 

 

 

Regarding pressure, ironically, I just saw this video this morning...

 

 

 

 

I don't know if this video was staged, or not... I think the Redskin fan in me causes me to be a bit more skeptical, but he seems to at the very least understand the fundamentals of pocket presence and how to avoid pressure. That's a potentially great thing because I feel like that's something that RG3 and Kirk struggled with. Pocket presence. Kirk is still fumbling the ball like crazy because he struggles with it.

 

I didn't like the Big Ben comparison that was being thrown around but looking at some of these plays, that's exactly who he looked like on some of those running plays. 😂

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3 hours ago, JoggingGod said:

Mahomes didn’t throw 50 TDs because of Alex Smith. He would have been a stud right away in Andy Reid’s offense. Same deal with Aaron Rodgers.

 

I cant find a single QB in the past 20 years that actually benefited from sitting behind a below average QB for a year.

 

What you can’t know is who busted because of impatience.

2 hours ago, CrypticVillain said:

This whole debate about Haskins starting, or not is one of the most pointless things I've ever seen.

 

 

You could say that about nearly any discussion — particularly on a sports related forum. Forums exist because people enjoy these discussions, not because the debates will impact the world around us.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

So this stuff has probably already been posted somewhere on the site, but while we're talking Haskins and scouting reports I found this one interesting and informative. 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/draft-dwayne-haskins-isnt-a-finished-product-but-still-possesses-a-valuable-skillset-worth-taking-early-in-the-draft

 

There's a lot to digest, but here's some of the stuff that mimics what others have said with regard to things he needs to improve. 

 

 

 

 

The stuff I’ve pointed out rationally that get pushed back on emotionally. Haskins is atrocious with pressure, he’s very awkward, he’s not a natural passer when he’s off platform - though he’s always got the arm that gives him a chance to get a ball in the area. He misses more passes by 4+ yards than most, everything breaks down from his feet, hips, arm & shoulders when pressure is introduced. I don’t care one way or another, but observing reality bothers some here. 

 

Haskins will get what’s protected & schemed up — and you can scheme up an enormous chunk of the field because of his arm - he won’t be able to improvise in a league that is relying on more of it & he’s got to get his body in sync when he’s forced off his natural shuffle. That’s ok, it’s doable, it’s nothing against Haskins, it’s just what’s indisputably in his tape. 

 

 

Edited by volsmet
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5 minutes ago, volsmet said:

You could say that about nearly any discussion — particularly on a sports related forum. Forums exist because people enjoy these discussions, not because the debates will impact the world around us.

1

I knew this reply was coming...

 

Yes, you can probably say this about any subject, especially during the off-season. Having said that, I've gone to the Cardinals message board, listened to a few Cardinals podcast... So far the only thing I've seen regarding Muarry starting is his coach and GM talking about it. As expected the coach wants him to learn, the GM wants him to play immediately. That's about it.

 

Meanwhile, the Redskins media is on week two of it and now it's even starting to go National. Just seems like this franchise/city/area/fans/etc... loves to hype of a QB Controversy.

 

In ES, we'll beat a dead horse like no one else can, but my irritation isn't directed to no one here, it's caused more by the media. 

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, volsmet said:

 

What you can’t know is who busted because of impatience.

 

 

You can't know either side of this debate. Unless something happens, we really don't know if it would have happened. So, we can't say that Rodgers or Mahomes would have been great as rookies just because they were great when they did get a chance to start. 

 

At the same time, we don't know if guys who were thrown in too quickly ever would have done better if they weren't rushed. 

Edited by TD_washingtonredskins
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I think this is a pretty balanced film review of Haskins from Farrar

 

https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/2019/05/10/how-dwayne-haskins-one-big-flaw-could-set-him-back-in-the-nfl/

 

...Like first-overall pick Kyler Murray, Haskins threw 50 touchdown passes in 2018 despite the fact that he hadn’t been the offense’s main man before, and Haskins’ tape showed a preternatural ability to read defenses, decipher coverages, and make NFL-level throws based on his diagnosis.

 

...This isn’t particularly unusual for a top-level college quarterback, but Haskins’ maturity at that position for a one-year starter shows up in the throws he makes to beat coverage, the ways in which he’ll look defenders off to help his receivers, and the ways in which he’ll use his plus-level arm to throw receivers open in some very tight windows. Were this were all that the position required, it would have been easy to pound the table for Haskins as not only the first quarterback taken in this draft, but the first player overall.

 

Unfortunately, there’s more to the position than that, and there’s one area where Haskins really needs to figure things out before he’ll be ready to play in an NFL with waves of rotational pass-rushers coming at him every week. Haskins is not a good quarterback under pressure, and that shows up on tape in all kinds of ways. Per Pro Football Focus, Haskins had a 90.4 passer rating with a clean pocket that dropped to 56.7 when pressured, and the primary reason for this is that he’s not yet able to adjust his body to make throws under pressure.

 

Quarterbacks who throw well on the run and off their ideal spots are able to move their shoulders to the target after they’re flushed out, reduce their deliveries in ways that don’t affect their accuracy, and throw from different platforms when necessary. Haskins looks better than any other quarterback in this class when the pocket’s full of air, but especially against the best defenses he faced in 2018, the challenge to combine mobility and accuracy was a real problem. Under those conditions, Haskins was far more likely to take a sack than he was to make a play.

 

Redskins head coach Jay Gruden has always preferred a quarterback who can roll out and reduce the field and make plays out of that in his version of the West Coast offense, but he didn’t seem too concerned about Haskins’ issues.

 

“I think he’s a big strong guy. He can maneuver in the pocket,” Gruden said at the press conference after Haskins was selected. “There’s a lot of quarterbacks that aren’t necessarily scramblers. You have to maneuver in the pocket to buy some time, and he can buy time with his size and strength. People bounce off of him. He’s a big strong kid and he has functional mobility. I’ve seen him get outside the pocket at Ohio State and make throws for touchdowns in the red zone and other areas of the field.”

 

There isn’t a lot of evidence of that, but there are examples of Haskins stepping up in the pocket to make excellent throws. 

 

...But things get problematic for Haskins when he leaves the pocket and tries to reduce his delivery–here, he hits Michigan linebacker Devin Bush in the back of the helmet as he’s trying to hit receiver Jaylen Harris. This brings up another issue–Haskins is more of a bailout thrower when flushed out of the pocket; he’s not a fully developed reader of the field on the run.

 

...This is what Gruden and the Redskins have to build on, though–what Haskins can do in the pocket. This touchdown to receiver Parris Campbell is what gets you excited about the player–he knows where the opening is post-snap, and he makes an excellent throw through his progressions.

 

It’s not that Haskins’ inability to create positive plays under pressure is a professional death sentence, but the quarterbacks who are able win under pressure have an inherent advantage he doesn’t. Like all good coaches, Gruden will have to work around this limitation as the same time he and his staff help Haskins through it.

 

Tom Brady has been able to shred defenses when under pressure because of his own incomparable acumen, and also because the Patriots have transitioned to a quick passing game over the last few seasons that allows Brady to get the ball out in a defined space of time. Jared Goff and Matt Ryan are able to win against pressure despite their limited movement skills (and in Goff’s case, his limited ability to play outside structure) because the Rams and Falcons are highly effective play-action teams. As PFF points out, Haskins was one of the NCAA’s best play-action quarterbacks in 2018, completing 81 of 122 passes for 1,351 yards, 17 touchdowns, and only two interceptions. Nick Foles has thrived in RPO-heavy offenses in which first and second reads are quickly defined; a three-step passing game with open receivers is one of the best ways to mitigate a quarterback’s lack of mobility.

 

In the short term, all Haskins’ lack of consistency under pressure means is that he’ll need a highly defined offense–he’ll have to be schemed to success within an absolute structure. The extent to which he’s able to overcome this flaw in the long term will define his potential as a player beyond scheme–and a quarterback at the top of the NFL list.

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11 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Unfortunately, there’s more to the position than that, and there’s one area where Haskins really needs to figure things out before he’ll be ready to play in an NFL with waves of rotational pass-rushers coming at him every week. Haskins is not a good quarterback under pressure, and that shows up on tape in all kinds of ways. Per Pro Football Focus, Haskins had a 90.4 passer rating with a clean pocket that dropped to 56.7 when pressured, and the primary reason for this is that he’s not yet able to adjust his body to make throws under pressure.

 

 

 

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