2019 NFL Draft discussion thread

[The Consigliere]

On 4/27/2019 at 12:33 PM, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

I hear what you're saying but if anyone can definitively say that we hit or missed on picks after the 3rd round, they're lying.  

 

No, what people should be saying, is whether or not they think a pick represented value, good process, good team building etc. You can't say hit or miss, but you can base evals on current value. For instance, everybody laughed at Dave Gentleman. Did they laugh because Jones sucks (yes) or did they laugh because of bad process (yes and no). The pick was bad both due to the scouting AND due to the bad process involved. People reacted instantly there too. I just would like grades and decisions to be based on that point of view. Thats why Gettleman was an even bigger idiot a year ago. He may have got a generational RB (he did) but he got him w/an already expensive contract for the position for RB, so he wasn't a contract value AND he eschewed QB which meant that whatever Barkley accomplished, it would be unlikely to produce many positive gains in terms of wins and losses long term, especially when you considered the QB and OL situation for NYG. It was always idiocy, no matter how good he was considering positional value in the draft, and the quality of that QB class and the fact that NYG had a huge QB need. A year down the road they engaged in a massive reach for a QB not 1/10th the prospect that Darnold, Rosen and Josh Allen were/are, and they sit, w/a rookie QB and a 2nd year rb, and a weak OL still, and now will they draft a QB in the loaded '20/'21 QB classes? Probably not, so in 2022 NYG fans will still be shaking their head about a decision that should've been easy four years earlier, and was fumbled and resulted in a half decade of failure w/no clear sign of hope down the road, and Barkley's RB prime and Evan Engram's TE prime wasted. 

[bakedtater1]

6 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

And how about the 32nd ranked team.   

Absolutely love seeing an NFC east opponent ranked that..HTTR!!

[Malapropismic Depository]

If we learned anything at all from McVay, we need to give Kyle Smith an actual GM title, GM money, and GM responsibilities,

no matter what you have to do with everyone else's titles and responsibilities.

[The Consigliere]

On 4/27/2019 at 1:34 PM, DWinzit said:

Seems like something must have occurred to cause a drop like this.

There are a couple other good WR's remaining. Also at CB like Brown or Nauta or Wilson at TE and DE Ledbetter

 

It was the combine. The guy was top 5 combine, then he turned in a sub-athlete performance. He was always going to be borderline day 3 after the combine he had, and then after that, pretty much everyone had their WR's which can push someone down. 

 

 

On 4/27/2019 at 1:42 PM, mistertim said:

Part of me would rather have taken a flyer on a freak of nature like Emanuel Hall instead of Harmon though. Harmon had some good tape but his measurables at the combine were pretty bad. However, he seems like more of a likely hit than Hall. 

 

Hall's a big play specialist, we already have that in Richardson when he isn't in the infirmary (granted that's rare). Harmon seemed like a direct challenger for Doctson's role. He does the same things, he's not the same caliber of athlete, but he seems to have more toughness and physicality to his game as well, and he won't carry the batter ego Doctson must have at this point. 

 

 

 

[DWinzit]

3 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

 

It was the combine. The guy was top 5 combine, then he turned in a sub-athlete performance. He was always going to be borderline day 3 after the combine he had, and then after that, pretty much everyone had their WR's which can push someone down. 

 

That fall sure paid off shortly after that post! He showed be a red zone monster

[Going Commando]

The Giants' draft wasn't bad.  They just picked the wrong QB.  But Jones could still end up being pretty good, and he's got the best situation of any of the rookie QBs since he'll get to sit for a while.  That decreases the chance that he'll bust.

 

They also got 5 other players who are really good, and for good value.

[The Consigliere]

On 4/27/2019 at 1:56 PM, clskinsfan said:

I guess this is the one that will disagree with the rest. I think Hall is a far superior player. Harmon is SLOW and he struggles to get separation. Those two traits are a death nail for an NFL WR. He won on physicality in college. He wont be able to do that in the NFL.  I wonder if they dont try to pull a Niles Paul with him and bulk him up to move him to TE? I mean it is a 6th rounder so no big deal. But there was a much better player at the position available IMO.

 

Far superior is a bit of a stretch. Obviously Hall is a orders of magnitude more athletic (90th percentile Speed Score, 99th Percentile Burst (explosion drills), production and breakout ages are very similar. I don't really understand why Hall wasn't drafted especially when guys like McLaurin were. It makes zero sense to me. I like Harmon a lot, but yes, the athleticism may be a deal breaker, and that's why he fell. We'll see. 

 

 

[Malapropismic Depository]

8 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

The Giants' draft wasn't bad.  They just picked the wrong QB. 

 

They also got 5 other players who are really good, and for good value.

 

It got worse though.

One of their draft picks was just shot.

[Spaceman Spiff]

1 hour ago, The Consigliere said:

 

No, what people should be saying, is whether or not they think a pick represented value, good process, good team building etc. You can't say hit or miss, but you can base evals on current value. For instance, everybody laughed at Dave Gentleman. Did they laugh because Jones sucks (yes) or did they laugh because of bad process (yes and no). The pick was bad both due to the scouting AND due to the bad process involved. People reacted instantly there too. I just would like grades and decisions to be based on that point of view. Thats why Gettleman was an even bigger idiot a year ago. He may have got a generational RB (he did) but he got him w/an already expensive contract for the position for RB, so he wasn't a contract value AND he eschewed QB which meant that whatever Barkley accomplished, it would be unlikely to produce many positive gains in terms of wins and losses long term, especially when you considered the QB and OL situation for NYG. It was always idiocy, no matter how good he was considering positional value in the draft, and the quality of that QB class and the fact that NYG had a huge QB need. A year down the road they engaged in a massive reach for a QB not 1/10th the prospect that Darnold, Rosen and Josh Allen were/are, and they sit, w/a rookie QB and a 2nd year rb, and a weak OL still, and now will they draft a QB in the loaded '20/'21 QB classes? Probably not, so in 2022 NYG fans will still be shaking their head about a decision that should've been easy four years earlier, and was fumbled and resulted in a half decade of failure w/no clear sign of hope down the road, and Barkley's RB prime and Evan Engram's TE prime wasted. 

 

I am a big Dave Gettleman fan.

[The Consigliere]

9 hours ago, Califan007 said:

 

 

 

 

I've got no issue supporting the guys below Allen and Snyder, but them? No, not changing my mind on them. We've got two decades of proof that Snyder's a hopeless idiot, and nearly a decade of proof that Allen is a scumbag and an incompetent fool. The fact that they blindly stumbled onto some F.O. talent while not noticing that they had 3 different coaches on staff better than Jay Gruden five years ago shouldn't be an endorsement, it's an indictment. We'll know if Snyder has learned anything if he ejects Allen and promotes from within so he doesn't repeat the mistakes made over the past five years w/the coaching staff, Cousins, McCloughan etc w/his front office talent this time. 

 

 

 

 

[The Consigliere]

9 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

They've been good IMO at drafting for years.   Jay told JP Finley the plan was to stick to Kyle Smith's board.  So kudos I guess for Dan and Bruce for apparently staying out of his way.

 

In my humble opinion nothing happened yesterday to vindicate the Alex Smith trade.  I thought it was bad trade when it happened and after -- and Bruce compounded it IMO by giving Alex that fat extension which will amount to a cap penalty for years.

 

In my opinion, they've been good with college scouting and bad with pro scouting for years.  The combination of that and failing over and over again at QB in different ways has contributed to the mediocrity.  I think the naysayers are too tough when they say this FO stinks.  I don't think they stink.  They are so so.  And the sleaze from time to time and PR gaffes that comes out of the FO makes it feel worse than that every now and then.

 

But back to positivity.  I've gotten now a bigger sample size and i've always liked the profile of Kyle Smith but now its hitting man crush territory.   I got no man crush on Bruce or Dan. 😀   But Kyle to me looks like a special evaluator.

 

The idea that we got the 2nd best Qb in the draft. That's debatable.  There is no bigger crap shoot position than QB so we will see how it plays out.  We've been through that rodeo so I am not counting my chickens yet.  If they get the QB position right it will be the first time in Dan's era and the era just before him that we pulled it off.   Shuler was highly touted. RG3 was labeled can't miss by some NFL draft geeks including even Bill Polian who said he spent a ton of hours studying him before he left his position in Indy -- and if anything he was a more ballyhooed prospect than Haskins.  Ramsey and Campbell were first rounders.  They all felt exciting in the moment.  Heck I recall like yesterday reading the SI article that gushed about how the Redskins got the next Aikman in Heath Shuler.

 

If Haskins is the goods.  They finally hit the goldmine after throwing a gazillion draft picks and money at the position.  But considering this team's history, i'll believe it when I see it go down.  Arguably the only other team that has been more comical at botching the QB position after attempt after attempt was the Browns.   And heck they finally got it right last year.  Hopefully this year finally it happens for us.  And if it does, i do think Dan finally escapes the dungeon.  If I had to say the hallmark for Dan's mishaps during his tenure most of it centers on the QB.  And thankfully some of his desires at the position (according to some reports) never happened like trading up for Sanchez and wanting Brady Quinn.  

 

If he finally got it right, I think a lot would be forgiven.  If they didn't get it right it would feel same old same old.  This franchise has had good rosters here and there but never really with great QB play at the same time.  if that finally changes, it changes everything IMO. 

 

 

 

 

 

I hope and pray we don't end up losing him like we lost Kyle shanahan, Matt Lafleur and McVay. We need to fire Allen and promote him. 

 

 

 

[Warhead36]

We've done a good job of drafting solid, B- to B+ type players. But we really gotta start landing some game changing studs. I'm hopeful Haskins and Sweat can both fill that void.

[The Consigliere]

6 hours ago, Mr. Sinister said:

I don't like that we drafted more injured/surgery riddled  players who likely have a very realistic chance of making the team. 

 

We do that, too much, and that's one of the things that leads to the explosion if injuries when the season starts.

Depends on the type of injury. Some are much more dangerous than others. An ACL while catastrophic in the short term, typically is not catastrophic for careers like it used to be. Typically you're out for 9 months, you are not your 100% self in your first season back, but you should be by year 2, especially if you're young. Other injuries, especially foot and toe injuries, achilles etc are much much more dangerous, ditto soft tissue problems, hammy's (just look at USMNT Forward Jozy Altidore, who hasn't played a complete game in a major tournament for the US since World Cup 2010 in South Africa. His chronic soft tissue injuries knocked him out of WC '14, and the Copa America Centenario, and for part of WC qualifying in 2016/2017. He hasn't scored a goal in a major tournament for the US since his shocker against Spain a decade ago when he was just an 18 year old, now he's 29, and the early promise he displayed is a forgotten memory in terms of big game moments, he doesn't have any. All largely due to gimpy hamstrings more than anything else. If you draft an ACL guy there's a 90% chance he'll be what he was w/in 18 to 24 months, and playable within 9-12 months. That's not a concern. The nightmare is drafting a young D'Onta Foreman, then seeing him blow out his achilles halfway into his rookie year and never become the same RB again (a likely scenario right now). 

 

 

 

 

[JaxJoe]

4 hours ago, Skin'emAlive said:

No its not the New England Monarchy style

Sure is nice to have a monarchy-style when you trip over the golden egg of quarterbacks in the dark of the 6th round named Tom Brady. Imagine not having to spend a 1st round pick on a QB for the next 15 years to build that Monarchy. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

2 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

 

 

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

18 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

I've got no issue supporting the guys below Allen and Snyder, but them? No, not changing my mind on them. We've got two decades of proof that Snyder's a hopeless idiot, and nearly a decade of proof that Allen is a scumbag and an incompetent fool. The fact that they blindly stumbled onto some F.O. talent while not noticing that they had 3 different coaches on staff better than Jay Gruden five years ago shouldn't be an endorsement, it's an indictment. We'll know if Snyder has learned anything if he ejects Allen and promotes from within so he doesn't repeat the mistakes made over the past five years w/the coaching staff, Cousins, McCloughan etc w/his front office talent this time. 

 

Sooo...if you are given information and evidence that shows Snyder is not interfering anymore, you'll still believe he's interfering? Ok, then.

[JaxJoe]

[gif]

I looked at all drafts team-by-team last night and graded each pick as a “wow!”, “hmm”, “meh”, “who??”, and “wtf!”

 

As a homie, hands down we had the best draft. Next best was Denver, then Detroit,  Green Bay, and Jax. Not surprised to see the “experts” disagree with me, though. 

 

New England should've drafted Finley at the end of the third round instead of losing him to Cincy at the start of the 4th. Good pick by Cincy though, to groom for a couple years behind Dalton. I cannot see Stidham as a Brady replacement but Belichick will probably trade him in a couple years for a 1st round pick. lol. 

[PartyPosse]

i dont understand how anyone can judge a draft class days after the draft. 

[The Consigliere]

4 hours ago, Darth Tater said:

With the Haskins pick, the BEST scenario I can think of is Alex Smith coming back next year, especially if Case plays well enough in 2019 to get a FA contract worthy of a comp pick. Very unlikely scenario though.  We pay will pay about 16 million no matter what next year.  I'd rather pay 20M to a top-tier backup as opposed to about 16 million for one guy to sit on his couch on Sundays and another top-tier backup about 5M to sit on the bench Sundays. At worse in such a scenario, we get a very early signal that Haskins is probably not the solution.

 

Case was fantastic in college, saddled with Jeff Fisher's inept Rams coaching that nearly caused Gurley to retire, then got in an ideal situation in Minnesota before he left for Denver where the run game depended on two rookies, an iffy OL, and two AARP WR's in Dem Thomas and Manny Sanders who both suffered potential career ending injuries midseason (though Dem Thomas was traded by then) , so he spent half the season throwing to rookies (Hamilton and Sutton) and no TE worth a damn. I don't think he's great, but I think there's reason to believe he'd be at least solid w/a quality line (we have that when healthy), and reasonable weapons to play with (we do not have that, yet anyway). I think Keenum could end up doing A LOT for Doctson if he wins the starting job and they don't move on from him. Doctson prorated was basically a 50-750 guy in year 2 w/a limited QB taking shots in Colt McCoy, Keenum will take bigger shots and is more capable of doing so. Considering that was basically Doctson's second year, if he was healthy and Case was healthy, I'd fully expect a 55-70 catch season in his third full season. 

 

Case is also fine for our objective which should be to tank for the '20 draft (loaded with talent, especially on offense). We have the schedule necessary to land a top 10 pick, possibly top 5 next year. 

 

 

[Burgundy Yoda]

I'll gladly get off the #firebruceallen train if they promote Kyle Smith to GM and let him do his job. Allen can definitely be useful to the organization and a big part in its success, just not gathering players and talent evaluation... it's just not his forte. Someone in the organization also has a good eye for finding the right talent evaluators, and hiring the correct people to be in those spots. We've had quite a few young coaches, and scouts now with Kyle Smith rise in the ranks. I wouldn't be surprised if this was Bruce's forte to be honest. Which means if this is his sole job within the organization along with networking, he is definitely more useful here than not. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 hour ago, PartyPosse said:

i dont understand how anyone can judge a draft class days after the draft. 

 

You judge the level and amount of talent and potential infused into the roster, the draft capital used to acquire it, the other options each team could have taken instead, how well each team tried addressing needs, whether or not the player and it's potential was worth the pick used on him....etc, etc, yadda yadda. 

 

There really is concrete stuff you can judge right now about the draft. You just can't judge the on-field results yet. But the thing is, the results don't necessarily negate the judgements and opinions being given now. For example, if the Patriots had taken Brady in the 1st round, the fact that Brady becomes a HOF player doesn't make taking him in the 1st round a good pick, because the picks aren't made in a vacuum. A good GM would know that they are not in danger of losing Brady in the draft if they wait to pick him in a later round, and would use that higher, more valuable pick to add higher, more valuable talent to the roster without missing out on their target. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

I'll gladly get off the #firebruceallen train if they promote Kyle Smith to GM and let him do his job. Allen can definitely be useful to the organization and a big part in its success, just not gathering players and talent evaluation... it's just not his forte. Someone in the organization also has a good eye for finding the right talent evaluators, and hiring the correct people to be in those spots. We've had quite a few young coaches, and scouts now with Kyle Smith rise in the ranks. I wouldn't be surprised if this was Bruce's forte to be honest. Which means if this is his sole job within the organization along with networking, he is definitely more useful here than not. 

 

I agree.  I don't think the typical Bruce critic here is asking for much.  Just let Kyle run personnel for the whole team. 

 

If Bruce wants to run contracts and the business operation fine with me.  I get the impression from what i've read that Bruce is Dan's voice at owners meetings and social crutch in those settings among other things.  That's fine with me. 

 

However, I don't want a politician to have the final say on personnel let alone one who makes public gaffes and isn't the most likable dude so by extension he doesn't make our organization look hot -- as the face of the operation.  It's as simple as that. 

 

And for those who say his power is just a formality and Bruce really doesn't make the final decisions or maybe he does but just rubber stamps everything.   I don't doubt there are things he's hands off on especially college scouting.  But from what I've heard including by his pals like Cooley, Bruce does indeed like the power.   I really doubt he has held onto the power for kicks because its meaningless and he never truly uses it. 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Going Commando]

2 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

We've done a good job of drafting solid, B- to B+ type players. But we really gotta start landing some game changing studs. I'm hopeful Haskins and Sweat can both fill that void.

 

I think you're right.  I was thinking about comparing Montez Sweat to Danielle Hunter, and it occurred to me that even if Sweat ends up becoming as good as Hunter, we traded two second round picks for Sweat when the Vikings got Hunter for a third (plus they got a fifth because they moved down in the third to take him).  When is the last time we've dug up an All Pro player outside of a top five selection?  Instead we've been doing too much reaching and/or settling with our 2nd, 3rd, and 4th round picks.  We don't botch our first rounders, but we don't get extra base hits in the heart of our drafts.  And I don't necessarily think that's changed, even with Kyle Smith running our board.  It's why I would probably give our class a B or B- if we hadn't gotten a stud QB prospect with our first rounder.  Really hoping that Guice and Bryce Love can break our mid-round rut and blow up, but they're two RBs recovering from ACL injuries.  You never know.

 

But we've gotten some nice hits with our late rounders, and that partially makes up for the lack of value we get out of our mid-rounders.  This year I think it will be Kelvin Harmon who gives us major value.

[Burgundy Yoda]

26 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I think you're right.  I was thinking about comparing Montez Sweat to Danielle Hunter, and it occurred to me that even if Sweat ends up becoming as good as Hunter, we traded two second round picks for Sweat when the Vikings got Hunter for a third (plus they got a fifth because they moved down in the third to take him).  When is the last time we've dug up an All Pro player outside of a top five selection?  Instead we've been doing too much reaching and/or settling with our 2nd, 3rd, and 4th round picks.  We don't botch our first rounders, but we don't get extra base hits in the heart of our drafts.  And I don't necessarily think that's changed, even with Kyle Smith running our board.  It's why I would probably give our class a B or B- if we hadn't gotten a stud QB prospect with our first rounder.  Really hoping that Guice and Bryce Love can break our mid-round rut and blow up, but they're two RBs recovering from ACL injuries.  You never know.

 

But we've gotten some nice hits with our late rounders, and that partially makes up for the lack of value we get out of our mid-rounders.  This year I think it will be Kelvin Harmon who gives us major value.

Some of that falls on the player and coaching staff. It takes a perfect storm of finding the right guy with the perfect amount of talent and motivation to find an All Pro in later rounds. It's' no surprise that Matt Ioannidis is probably our biggest late round hit since Aflred Morris. Look who's coaching him, one of the best in the business at player development and then look who Alfred Morris' head coach was when he was drafted. Someone known for turning nobodies into somebodies in the NFL at the RB position. I know there are some people that say positional coaches don't matter, but I highly highly disagree and think they're a huge part in late round draft pick hits. Kelvin Harmon was a great steal, but now who's going to help develop him?