seantaylor=god

2019 NFL Draft discussion thread

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6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Alex Smith IMO is just spilled milk.  I disagree with those who say hey it was the right idea at the time and it just went wrong.  IMO it was the wrong idea.  I said it from the get go.  I didn't want a 34 year old Qb coming off of a career year who otherwise wasn't anything special.    And no way I want to see this play out next year at 36 coming off of that injury even if he could play.  That to me is QB is hell.

 

 The Chiefs had been very good under Smith even if he hadn't blown the world away statistically

 

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15 hours ago, Bonez3 said:

Tidbits I'm hearing I'm really liking early on:

 

'Terry McLaurin is the best gunner in the nation' - Teammate

 

Holcomb led team in tackles multiple years, underrated talent

 

multiple team captains

 

Harmon's work ethic

 

Pierschbacher big game experience, 4 straight NCG's

 

Haskins putting league on notice

 

Moreland's big play ability, record setting at his level. Kick block specialist, whaaaa

 

Sweat may have been misdiagnosed

 

Love interested in medicine, demonstrates diligence and character

 

Just couldn't really ask for more from talent/need/character perspective. On the surface, early on, looks to be really solid. 

 

 

'

If half of this was true it would be an A+ Draft. Maybe so many got fooled by past mistakes.  IDK. But doubts wil be turned into believers once these kids start playing. 

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1 hour ago, Wildbunny said:

So no, I don't like this draft at all... Draft is supposed to be 2/3 years down the road which isn't what we did at all here...

 

Whoa, hold up lol...in the Allen/GM thread you said this:

 

"As long as players won't have put on game tape on the field wearing Redskins uni, I'm not gonna call this draft good..."

 

Shouldn't that same rule also apply here? Cuz you were reaching a lot of negative conclusions about what the drafted players will be able to offer.

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1 minute ago, carex said:

 The Chiefs had been very good under Smith even if he hadn't blown the world away statistically

 

 

I spent tomes dissecting Alex Smith even before we traded for him.   I got better things to do with my time than re-litigate that trade so I won't here again.   I'll just finish with this unless we could have gotten a top tier QB last year -- I didn't want ANY QB that was 34 years old.    I wanted to go young. 

 

I think at the very least that trade was debatable and I was far from on an island as for not liking that deal.  If you liked the deal, cool.  It doesn't matter now though.  

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Skin'emAlive said:

Make no mistake, there is no dysfunction within the organization right now or for the lash 3 years. Everyoe knows their roles in the machine. 

 

The disfunction comes from people not used to being an outsider from player personnel decisions in dc, not accepting their roles, general vindictiveness, and the overwhelming malaise that has grasped the dmv as a whole.

 

we might have had a hand in ny drafting #pick6... Spies leaking false interest in the dukie. Just like I think we targeted sweat at 15 and had a hand in the medical. I think Allen has a team of these people playing other franchises as suckers into believing we are the same dunces they’ve only ever known. Kyle Smith, Allen, and Williams all play different roles . 

No disfunction right now? I’d consider what happened with our D coordinator position earlier this year disfunction and not the right way to go about business. I get what you are saying in terms of drafting though, they have done a good job the last few years but I cannot be convinced that there is no disfunction in the front office. DW got thrown to the wolves over Reuben Foster, a little further back the Scot M. debacle.  Kirk Cousins, another well played situation by the FO.

Edited by Zazzaro703

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Posted (edited)
On 4/27/2019 at 12:20 PM, KingGibbs said:

McLaurin is a very good pick on so many levels and having chemistry with Haskins being one of the biggest factors. He's a special teams beast to boot.

 

My biggest problem with the Love pick is he probably could've been had in the back end of the draft and quite possibly as a FA. It makes no sense PERIOD because we already have enough RB's coming off of injuries and Love might not even be available this year. It's not the end all be all, but I simply don't get the reasoning for this pick. He's talented, I get it. He's also unavailable. 

 

How is he a good pick on so many levels? The top three factors associated w/future success when looking at a prospect post draft are:

 1. Draft slotting-middling

2. Breakout age: awful

3. Market share: poor

4. Combine markers like 40 threshold: excellent

 

The only factor he controlled and excelled at was his combine. We need to evaluate these guys on tangible things they did related to why you would draft them early (which knocks out stuff like “Haskins teammate” or, “great ST’s gunner”). His one on field asset was hyperefficency but it only happened his senior year. I’m dreading the possibility that Harmon’s dropped and he’s kept due to draft capital. It’s critical he stay healthy and have a great camp. Harmon was a day 2 talent for most until he crapped the bed at the combine. His box scores as a 19 year old and 20 year old against legit ACC defenses illustrate  his ability to produce consistently against elite competition w/not much help to pull off coverage:

 

as a 20 year old:

Vs South Carolina: 10-114

Vs Louisville: 6-133-1

@Pitt: 3-113

@ Notre Dame: 7-97-1

Vs Clemson: 8-155-1

Vs ASU in Bowl Game: 4-24

 

as a 21 year old:

Vs Virginia 6-94-1

@ Clemson 2-13 (yuck)

@ Syracuse 11-247-2

@ Louisville 7-100-1

 

He's a producer, there is no doubt about that, just box score scout him ver McLaurin and you're totally baffled at Harmon going more than 100 picks later, but that combine does suggest the possibility that as a minus athlete, it may be too big a jump and I get that, but if nothing else, we know Harmon produced, period. We also know that he did so when he was 20 and 21. McClaurin never produced anything like Harmon's age 20 and 21 seasons. I don't expect he'll produce in the NFL either as guys w/his profile rarely ever do. Maybe he'll surprise me. We'll see, I just hope Harmon gets a legit shot because he is ultra talented as a WR, he just isn't even an average athlete, he's sub-average. 

 

 

 

Edited by The Consigliere
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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

This is coming from a guy who didn't love Haskins as a player.  But then I thought about it some more.  And its not that I've come around much on Haskins but I'll keep an open mind about him in part because there are smart football people who i like and trust who are into him.  Dan not among them. :ols:  

 

The FO getting Sweat (I think coaches felt this way as well) sealed my approval of taking a swing at Haskins. Still working to get a feel for him as a dude, talent, and potential face of the franchise. 

 

 

Quote

 

And thinking about it some more even if Haskins doesn't work out -- the best way to get out of QB hell IMO is to keep taking shots at the well.    I was against trading up for any QB because I didn't want to lose draft capital.  But just taking Haskins at 15 isn't that risky. 

 

Fantastic point. Must take shots.

 

I think as fans the thought of a young QB initially isn’t positive, as we know it will take time and the percentages of them proving worthy of the investment is poor (me included at times). We want that immediate contributor with a higher probability to help immediately. 

 

 Buuut.... to provide better odds, investments must be made. 

 

 

Quote

 But the Eagles who get heralded for doing things right -- made quick admissions of mistakes and move on.  They traded for Bradford.   Signed a FA QB too.   Didn't work out.  They went and got another young QB.    And they did it all in quick time.

 

Historical context at its finest. People often forget the blunders of successful organizations during process of finding their guy. 

Edited by wit33
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57 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

Lmao if we were actually doing these things I'd be amazed. I would expect something like this from the Patriots, and would gladly accept that our organization had a bunch of snakes everywhere if it meant having draft picks slide to us. I just dont think we are capable still...

 

The Washington Redskins are a multi-billion dollar organization that exist within a league of 31 other multi-billion dollar organizations and are owned by mega rich people that made their money elsewhere before they bought into the greatest business ownership in the world. The top two people in charge of this team are business men. It would be ignorant to think that corporate espionage doesnt exist when the difference between millions in profit and hundreds of millions in profit lies in the success and talent of your franchise. That being said, I think there is a very clear path to success in the worlds of both the NFL and NBA. The NHL and MLB are bit different.

 

Bear with me here...

 

Tactician: Need to be able to find the right players that fit your system in the draft and in free agency, while providing 199yourself with the ability to hit and miss with those prospects without putting all your eggs in one basket.

Leadership: Need a guy to address everything, unilaterally, and provide an outlet for players and media to talk to and respond to, and ability to keep the ownership happy.

Visionary: Need a plan both for the success of the team in the interim, but also the future. Need to be able to adjust to the changes of the game from year to year.

Patience: Need to know how to have patience with the draft and players drafted.

Ruthlessness: Need to know when to maximize leverage and move investments for something better, as well as how to play other organizations into your favor

 

At the top of the food chain you have New England. Bill is the only guy in sports who has put on all the hats of a successful organization, and done it well. Look at these qb trades!

Drew Bledsoe: to Buffalo for a 1st

Matt Cassell: to KC for a 2nd

Jacoby Brisset: to Indianapolis for Phillip Dorsett

Jimmy Garapolo: to SF for a 2nd

Those guys hardly did anything in NE and he played everyone for quality return. Im not even going to get into the defensive trades which are arguably superior, and he makes these moves every year. The man sets the trend. In a year where air-raid rpo took over the league, he dominated LAC/LAR/KC with running out the clock and rushing straight up the middle behind an H-Back, Gronk, and an aging slot wr in Edelman...

 

Andy Reid and Mike McCarthy were the other guys that play all the roles. In the end it got McCarthy fired for not surrounding his top player with the requisite talent to succeed. He tried to be Bellichik with the franchise guy. It was a mistake. Andy is a hard one to figure out. I am not sure if his inability to win it all is due to his lack of ruthlessness or just being outcoached slightly in the biggest moments.

 

Seattle:

Schneider plays the role of tactician, visionary, patience, and ruthlessness very well. He's made some tough decisions with HOF players ( Earl Thomas and Richard Sherman). But they were necessary to the overall success of the team. He's made the most out of his moves ( including turning 4 picks this year into 11 this year, + a 2020 2nd round pick). I dont like all the picks he made this year, but you cant deny the genius here. He's also changed the dynamic of the team from a power running, defense driven team to Russell Wilson's team, something Mike McCarthy failed to do.

Pete Carroll is the Leader and the one who shows the most patience. You need a guy like him to relate with the players. Just watch the 70 year old rip his shirt off to shake the hand of Metcalf at the signing table. He friggin' gets it.

 

Ravens: Ozzy ran the game a long time. We will see what DeCosta does, but he is clearly building around Jackson.

 

Chargers:

Tom Telesco and Anthony Lynn are rebuilding that team into a defensive power house

 

Celtics:

Danny Ainge plays the same role as Schneider. He's made hard moves that have overwhelmingly worked out for the best in the end. Unfortunately for him, its basketball, and without a top 5 guy, its almost impossible to win it all. Brad Stevens does the rest.

 

Raptors:

Masai Ujiri is just as brilliant as Danny Ainge and has made a very difficult decision to move DeRozan for a chance with Leonard... im thinking this is turning out well for him. He also made the tough decision to move on from Dwayne Casey to Nick Nurse... so far a good choice. Im a fan of every move he's made since taking over in Toronto.

 

Anyways: For the Redskins, I think theyve finally figured out their roles:

 

Bruce Allen: You have your Varys's and you have your Littlefingers. Bruce Allen is a ****ing Littlefinger if Ive ever seen one. You cant let him get too much control, or he will mess it all up, and put guys like Mike Shanahan in charge. But let him be that snake in the room spreading poison around, and you have a very useful piece to your organization. Im convinced that Mara outfoxed Bruce the first go-around with "I-4 Off Ramp" during the 2010 season. In case you've forgotten, the league was temporarily without a cap and we used that grace period legally to pay off the Shanny contractual mistakes of DeAngelo Hall and Albert Haynesworth's. Mara changed the game by flexing and penalized us $36 million over the next 2 years, absolutely destroying the ability to put quality pieces around RG3. Im confident that Bruce has not forgotten this... #pick6 and Sweat was an inside job!

 

Jay Gruden: He's the relatable face that you can put in front of the media and players. He's Pete Carroll basically. The fact that the organization let him release both Swearinger and Zach Brown was a bit surprising. Leading me to believe he has more control over things in the FO, but not full control.

 

Doug Williams: He's the vision. He has a plan for the design of the team and works directly with the scouting department to make it happen. Im willing to bet that the move to not sign KC to a massive contract, and to trade for AS with plans to draft a qb this year and have him learn under his tutelage was partially Doug's call. AS got injured, and thats not his fault. But Keenum was brought in to fill the same roll that AS filled. The plan is ball control, smart qb play, and elite defense. We are right on track, even with the horrible injuries last year.

 

Kyle Smith: The Patience. What he's done with the past 3 drafts have been extraordinary. Lets take a look:

2017:

17: Jonathan Allen

49: Ryan Anderson

81: Fabian Moreau

114: Samaje Perine

123:Montae Nicholson

154: Jeremy Sprinkle

199: Chase Roullier

235 Joshua Holsey

Robert Davis

 

2018:

13: Da'Ron Payne

27. Derrius Guice

74: Geron Christian

109: Troy Apke

163. Tim Settle

197: Shaun Dion Hamilton

241: Greg Stroman

256: Trey Quinn

 

2019:

#15: Dwayne Haskins

#26: Montez Sweat

#76: Terry McLaurin

#112: Bryce Love

#131: Wes Martin

#153: Ross Pierschbacher

173: Cole Holcomb

206. Kelvin Harmon

227: Jimmy Moreland

253: Jordan Brailford

 

So far every year, we have increased our number of picks; a very Belichik-ian strategy...while building around the vision that Doug and Jay are looking for. We let the guys come to us without reaching, and drafted high character prospects that are within the system. No its not the New England Monarchy style, but, I really think that this dynamic works as long as everyone knows their roles and sticks within it. Could we give Kyle a raise? Yea. But our last 3 seasons has been a team effort from all 4 guys.

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With the Haskins pick, the BEST scenario I can think of is Alex Smith coming back next year, especially if Case plays well enough in 2019 to get a FA contract worthy of a comp pick. Very unlikely scenario though.  We pay will pay about 16 million no matter what next year.  I'd rather pay 20M to a top-tier backup as opposed to about 16 million for one guy to sit on his couch on Sundays and another top-tier backup about 5M to sit on the bench Sundays. At worse in such a scenario, we get a very early signal that Haskins is probably not the solution.

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2 hours ago, Mr. Sinister said:

I don't like that we drafted more injured/surgery riddled  players who likely have a very realistic chance of making the team. 

 

We do that, too much, and that's one of the things that leads to the explosion if injuries when the season starts. 

 

Wasn't it just Love though?  Thought everyone else was healthy.

 

We did go a little undersized though.  Harmon, Sweat, and Haskins are all bigguns, but most of the others were on the small side: McLaurin isn't huge, got kind of a narrow maxed out looking frame.  Love and Martin and Holcomb are all undersized.  The corner isn't very big either.

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7 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Wasn't it just Love though?  Thought everyone else was healthy.

 

We did go a little undersized though.  Harmon, Sweat, and Haskins are all bigguns, but most of the others were on the small side: McLaurin isn't huge, got kind of a narrow maxed out looking frame.  Love and Martin and Holcomb are all undersized.  The corner isn't very big either.

 

Love and one of the later picks that had a documented injury history, but had a legitimate shot to make the team.

 

They become your depth, and when depth is needed, it crumbles. Just an observation.  

 

I also think it was McBudweiser that liked drafting big guys. We may see the team pivot away from that going forward

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1 hour ago, Califan007 said:

 

Whoa, hold up lol...in the Allen/GM thread you said this:

 

"As long as players won't have put on game tape on the field wearing Redskins uni, I'm not gonna call this draft good..."

 

Shouldn't that same rule also apply here? Cuz you were reaching a lot of negative conclusions about what the drafted players will be able to offer.

Probably because I explained myself badly.

 

My main problem isn't the players themselves, it's the strategy behind it... I'm almost fine with everyone else but picking a QB. I would rather have solidified our OL or get a backup tackle to groom behind Trent than going QB.

 

Now, it will be a good draft if in a few years many of them are still contributing to the team. Right now they haven't proved themselves at all. Potential is things that may comes, but haven't yet and may never come.

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5 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

My main problem isn't the players themselves, it's the strategy behind it...

 

Ah, gotcha...ok, I see the difference now lol...👍

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

I also think it was McBudweiser that liked drafting big guys. We may see the team pivot away from that going forward 

 

Think we might already have.  Allen and Payne are a little small for their positions.  So is Foster.  Seems like we're going with smaller, stockier guys who are better conditioned.

Edited by stevemcqueen1

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14 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Think we might already have.  Allen and Payne are a little small for their positions.  So is Foster.  Seems like we're going with smaller, stockier guys who are better conditioned.

 

This offseason seemed to emphasize adding a ****load of speed to the team. 

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3 hours ago, bakedtater1 said:

Wildbunny....I'm willing to bet the farm Alex don't play another snap in the NFL...

I'll put my farm up too.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

The FO getting Sweat (I think coaches felt this way as well) sealed my approval of taking a swing at Haskins. Still working to get a feel for him as a dude, talent, and potential face of the franchise. 

 

 

Yeah loved the Sweat pick.  As for Haskins, I've laid out what worried me about him.  But just like I said I'll get behind whomever we draft at the end.  

 

When we got RG3 or even Campbell we had to trade up.  For Brunell, McNabb, Alex Smith we gave up draft picks which IMO has some risk.  You are getting an older QB and inheriting those risks along with giving up some of your future.

 

You can argue Haskins is the least risky endeavor at QB since Ramsey and Shuler since they didn't have to give up extra draft capital.

 

If I recall we both agree this team or any team for that matter is unlikely going to be great without a franchise QB, so I've come to the conclusion that the Eagles method to get one is the way to go.  Just keep swinging and don't be afraid to swing again fast if you think your last stab at it didn't work.  The Eagles didn't waste any time and were aggressive post McNabb.    It looks like the Dolphins are about to follow that model.  I think we should, too.  

 

I got some doubts that Haskins is the guy.  But he does have some upside and talent so what the heck go for it.  And hopefully he ends up the guy but if not keep throwing darts at it. 

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Skin'emAlive said:

 

Kyle Smith: The Patience. What he's done with the past 3 drafts have been extraordinary. Lets take a look:

 

 

I agree that the HC shouldn't be in charge of personnel.  But it also IMO shouldn't be a politician either.  Just from hearing from some beat guys with sources to the FO who have had things explained to them, the impression I get is this.

 

Bruce Allen:  Your little finger description is hilarious and apt.  Love it.  But I'd sum him up as Dan's voice both inside and outside the building.  A politician who knows how to navigate that building like a master.  Too bad for him he has no PR sense and comes off publicly just as unlikable as Little Finger.  So he needs Doug badly. 

 

Kyle Smith:  The brains of the draft -- best thing cooking in that FO by a mile.  Without him it would be a hot mess I suspect unless they have a hot shot scout below him who knows what they are doing. 

 

Jay Gruden:  The Robin to Kyle's Batman.  Multiple beat guys have said Jay and Kyle see football the same way.  They got an alliance.   He's the next best evaluator in the building. 

 

Doug:  The facilitator.  Nice guy.  Bruce thinks he's the perfect teflon spokesperson for the team because who hates Doug?  

 

Santos:  with all of their screw ups in FA, it's amazing how this guy goes under the radar as much as he does.  But he's good at staying out of the limelight.  He's instrumental i heard in creating the FA wish list.

 

Schaffer:  a master at working the building.  He's be Varys on Game of Thrones.  He can play office politics but unlike Little Finger, he's actually a good guy.  The financial wiz in that building.  Even Bruce has said he doesn't know why people credit him for contracts since that's all Schaffer. 

 

Dan:   A dude who doesn't know how to build a winning culture but thinks he does.  Little finger is his best pal.   And they bond over the fact that they are hated and blame the media for it. 

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise

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That graph made my day, my wife is a Giants fan I just shared. :ols:  

 

I am sticking today to hero worship of Kyle not Bruce.  According to some, they have to elevate this dude eventually to GM to keep him.  Do it Dan and you'll get bigger buzz from that than drafting Haskins.  😀

 

 

 

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On 4/27/2019 at 12:26 PM, Malapropismic Depository said:

At this stage of the draft, with few exceptions, there's almost no need to be mad about any picks.

 

 

Not really true, no matter where you draft there's always value, it's just your odds of finding it get lower and lower. That's why good process matters. I would put it more at making sure frustrations are proportional, understanding that hit rates are much lower, and that your favorite guy, if picked this low, even if he should've been picked higher based on whatever will carry little draft capital, and as a result no matter what he does, he will be more likely to be cut than to stick w/his first team. Add the probability of coaching turnover (very high here), and it just becomes that more likely that even if he does make the roster in year 1, he'll get bounced in year 2. 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, bakedtater1 said:

That's a good looking report card^^ ..raises for everyone!!

And how about the 32nd ranked team.   :giantssuck:

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