"Israel is for Jewish people only" - Netanyahu

[Renegade7]

7 hours ago, Destino said:

 

The only issue I have with that comparison is that Israel exists because of genocide and rampant anti-Semitism the world over.  Are we saying that persecuted minorities should never be allowed to have a nation of their own, and for their own?  I would say yes, because I think racial and religious discrimination are inherently bad ideas and will inevitably lead to negative outcomes.  Would you agree?

 

Of their own may not mean what it used to mean in 2019 and advent of globalization.  This is completely separate from their illegal occupation of another group of people and their nation.  South Sudan looks like a collosal mistake, and that's not the first or last time this idea has backfired.  We need to learn how to get along despite our differences and avoid further segmenting nations because we can't.

[grego]

2 hours ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Strong “whataboutism” play from the usual suspect.  The same poster who spent a full year in the BLM thread wanting to talk about nothing but Assata Shakur.

 

Make a Hamas thread if you need to discuss it, I guess.

 

Well, fortunately, I don't seek your approval or even know who you are. Sorry. 

 

On the other hand, my living rent free in your head brings me great joy. 

 

In the future, you may either address my points, PM me, or use the ignore feature. Thanks. 

 

[AsburySkinsFan]

3 hours ago, Destino said:

Wrongs don’t make a right, 

You could have stopped right there. The reason the media points out when the "good guys" use attack helicopters to blow up women and children is precisely because they ARE supposed to be the good guys. The same way we'd all pay attention if Superman killed innocent people and locked them behind a wall, and stole their land.

[Destino]

43 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

You could have stopped right there. The reason the media points out when the "good guys" use attack helicopters to blow up women and children is precisely because they ARE supposed to be the good guys. The same way we'd all pay attention if Superman killed innocent people and locked them behind a wall, and stole their land.

 

My point was that Israel was trying to have it both ways, and failing.  If they want their dirt to be over looked by terribly concerned westerner sipping expensive coffees they have to surrender their free democracy routine.  Or become a super power like China that is conducting yet another cultural genocide that no one will do anything about.  They really do seem to love stomping out religions.  

 

Since you brought it up however i have a thought on the sort of coverage you describe.   You’re right in believing that’s its perfectly reasonable.  Logically it makes perfect sense.  The trouble arises when the relatively few evils deeds of groups that are better are reported far more often that than the relatively large number evil deeds engaged in by groups that are worse.  It makes it seem like every group is just as bad as the next, or worse make it seem like the roles are the opposite of what they really are.

 

[AsburySkinsFan]

5 hours ago, Destino said:

 

My point was that Israel was trying to have it both ways, and failing.  If they want their dirt to be over looked by terribly concerned westerner sipping expensive coffees they have to surrender their free democracy routine.  Or become a super power like China that is conducting yet another cultural genocide that no one will do anything about.  They really do seem to love stomping out religions.  

 

Since you brought it up however i have a thought on the sort of coverage you describe.   You’re right in believing that’s its perfectly reasonable.  Logically it makes perfect sense.  The trouble arises when the relatively few evils deeds of groups that are better are reported far more often that than the relatively large number evil deeds engaged in by groups that are worse.  It makes it seem like every group is just as bad as the next, or worse make it seem like the roles are the opposite of what they really are.

 

The coffee sipping Westerner ain't gon do **** until it affects them personally. See Rwanda.

 

Now, take your second paragraph, between the Palestinians and Israelis which would you say are the bad actors? That's the point. BTW, I've seen the wall in Bethlehem, odd how that made more of an impact on my than seeing the holy sites.

[grego]

2 hours ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

 

Now, take your second paragraph, between the Palestinians and Israelis which would you say are the bad actors? That's the point. BTW, I've seen the wall in Bethlehem, odd how that made more of an impact on my than seeing the holy sites.

 

this is the question. the problem is, how do you know? determining that requires information from other people, particularly since this is an area half way around the world from where most of us posting are currently.

al Jazeera was mentioned in a thread the other day. what do you think their coverage is going to look like? what is the Israeli times coverage going to look like? even if they are covering the same events, they are bound to be framed differently. besides looking at two sides with a known bias and trying to pick the undisputed, uncontested facts, I don't know what you do. this problem is exacerbated these days by virtually all of our news being commentary made to get attention rather than reporting facts. 

alternatively, there are companies that fact check media companies (the names of some of them are escaping me right now- the knife media is one), so you could go with who they say are the most accurate. but only as long as you trust the people doing the recommending. 

[Larry]

2 hours ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Now, take your second paragraph, between the Palestinians and Israelis which would you say are the bad actors?

 

Both.  

 

And, in anticipation of the obvious followup question of "Which one's worse?":

 

I'm not sure I can say, definitively.  My personal opinion would rank them about equal. 

 

I'd be willing to revise that opinion, if I were better informed.  But I don't see any source of information about the region that I would trust worth spit.  (IMO, it's kind of like abortion.  It's a topic that so many people feel so strongly about that I suspect that nobody writing about the subject isn't actively pushing an agenda.)  

 

* * *

 

I will confess that, for some time, I've had this fantasy of the US simply imposing a Middle East peace plan on the two sides.  (IMO, the only way it happens is if the US imposes it on them.  And only the US can do so.)  

 

1)  Both countries are recognized by the US.  

 

2)  Using the 1967 borders.  (OK, maybe we can start with those, and then allow the two sides to give and take, to make the borders smoother.  One side will demand this place that sticks into their territory, and will give up a place that sticks into the other's.  Make the border straighter.)  

 

3)  Yes, this means that the Israelis will lose all the settlements they've built over the last 50 years.  Darn.  Sending civilians into somebody else's country and then yelling that "You can't shoot at them, they're civilians" is a war crime.  Next time you decide to build a gated community, make sure you have title to the land.  

 

4)  Israel gets Jerusalem.  No, this isn't a trade off.  More of a recognition of fact on the ground.  Jerusalem is a city completely surrounded by Israel, and I feel that creating a hole in the middle of a country and claiming that it isn't part of that country isn't really a viable situation.  And, it's been under Israeli control for over 50 years anyway.  The Statute of Limitations has passed.  If one or both of the sides wants to pretend that it's a trade off, go right ahead.  But to me, it's more a matter of recognition of fact, and the desire for a viability.  

 

5)  The Israeli occupation and blockade of the Palestinians ends today.  

 

6)  However, Israel has a very legit complaint that the Palestinians have used their territory to conduct terrorist and military attacks against Israel.  While I think the Israelis have used their claim of self defense to justify offensive military conquest for decades, that doesn't mean that their needs of self defense don't exist.  

 

7)  As such, the US military will assume the duties of inspecting shipments in and out of Palestine, to block the shipment of weapons.  The Israeli punitive blockades of things like medical equipment, concrete, and macaroni and cheese are over immediately.  But the US will inspect items at the border, for weapons.  Yes, I'm aware that Israel would prefer to conduct said inspections themselves.  Too bad.  Y'all have abused that for too long.  And attempt by Israel to blockade Palestine will be broken by the US military.  

 

[AsburySkinsFan]

55 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

Both.  

 

Exactly, which is why legitimate criticism of Israel is NOT antisemitic, nor is not pledging blind loyalty.

[mcsluggo]

19 hours ago, grego said:

ok, i'll try this- @skinsgoldpants posted that he was not happy with Netanyahu, while saying how tough it is for Israel, being surrounded by countries that wish for your destruction (I agree with those points). you mentioned that "Palestinians are painted as a dangerous, anti semitic monolith". between those two posts, it brought to mind the charter of hamas, the elected governing party of the Palestinian people, where, up until almost two years ago, it called for the destruction of Israel. 

so, in my quest to determine who's the baddie, I am faced with your statement that calls for people to not be thought of as a monolith (one I endorse wholeheartedly), while weighing the reality of what Israel has been facing in hamas. 

 

 

Ok.. and what is Netanyahu's position on a establishing a functioning country for Palestinians?    he has worked MUCH MORE ACTIVELY to destroy the possibility of a Palestinian state than ANY Hammas politician has ever even dreamed of harming Israel.         

 

... you know that....right?

 

 

and then, here (the initial post) he actually says out loud that not only is he actively working against the ostensibly foreign interests of Palestinians (an occupied non-sovereign state that Israel manages...and actively impedes) ......... but he ALSO states that Israeli natives that are muslim should NEVER have any say/vote/stake in their homeland.   Previously, israeli politicians had only <acted> on this belief...but weren't stupid enough to actually say it out loud.   

 

What should be our opinion of a world leader in a declared democracy that openly demands racist apartheid policies?      in the 1990s, we imposed sanctions on South Africa for policies like these, until that racist regime crumbled.     

 

But, today, if you criticize Israel in public, you can expect an immediate barrage of YOUareRACIST tweets   (and  those tweets mostly come from people that love the chance to distract from their own ... shall we say "interesting"... views on race matters) 

[grego]

13 minutes ago, mcsluggo said:

 

 

Ok.. and what is Netanyahu's position on a establishing a functioning country for Palestinians?    he has worked MUCH MORE ACTIVELY to destroy the possibility of a Palestinian state than ANY Hammas politician has ever even dreamed of harming Israel.         

 

 

i'm not sure we agree on that, which isn't to say he's been a good faith actor. can you explain why you say that? 

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

 

But, today, if you criticize Israel in public, you can expect an immediate barrage of YOUareRACIST tweets   (and  those tweets mostly come from people that love the chance to distract from their own ... shall we say "interesting"... views on race matters) 

 

 

I agree with both you and Asbury about criticism of Israel. nobody is above criticism, especially not the US. but that reaction is far from exclusive to criticism Israel. I saw a post supportive of Omars criticism of Israel (which I am, for the reasons I just stated) which also alluded to 'islamophobia', which is hilarious. 

[ClaytoAli]

All Jews aren’t Hebrews and all Hebrews aren’t jews.

 

Ethiopia might have a problem with his statement.

[TheGreatBuzz]

This thread has definitely made me realize how much I don't care about the situation.  Like I'm reading it and feel like I should care and want to be part of the conversation......but I don't.  Not sure why.  The situation in Venezuela I have way more interest in and it doesn't affect me any more than this one.

[ClaytoAli]

20 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

This thread has definitely made me realize how much I don't care about the situation.  Like I'm reading it and feel like I should care and want to be part of the conversation......but I don't.  Not sure why.  The situation in Venezuela I have way more interest in and it doesn't affect me any more than this one.

 

American media could care less about the rest of the Hebrews in the world that are not located in Israel.

 

Primarily because American media is run by one specific group of Hebrews.

[Burgold]

26 minutes ago, ClaytoAli said:

 

American media could care less about the rest of the Hebrews in the world that are not located in Israel.

 

Primarily because American media is run by one specific group of Hebrews.

Umm... hoo boy ☹️

 

... and let me guess, these same Hebrews control the weather, the banks, and secretly pull the strings of all the world’s governments. 

Edited March 13, 2019 by Burgold

[AsburySkinsFan]

49 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

This thread has definitely made me realize how much I don't care about the situation.  Like I'm reading it and feel like I should care and want to be part of the conversation......but I don't.  Not sure why.  The situation in Venezuela I have way more interest in and it doesn't affect me any more than this one.

 

You'd better care about it, we're faaaarrrrr more likely to end up in a war in Israel than Venezuela. 

[ClaytoAli]

45 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Umm... hoo boy ☹️

 

... and let me guess, these same Hebrews control the weather, the banks, and secretly pull the strings of all the world’s governments. 

They are in our heads. You have to petition them to grant you three wishes.

[Larry]

4 minutes ago, ClaytoAli said:

They are in our heads. You have to petition them to grant you three wishes.

 

No point whatsoever, but the thread needs some humor.  

 

[ClaytoAli]

1 hour ago, Larry said:

 

No point whatsoever, but the thread needs some humor.  

 

I tried and failed

[Destino]

3 hours ago, ClaytoAli said:

Primarily because American media is run by one specific group of Hebrews.

Stuff like that is why Jewish people feel they need their own state.  This jews control everything from behind the scenes thing, as you've posted, is classic antisemitism.  You've got to let that stuff go, its poison, and you definitely shouldn't post it here again. 

[tshile]

4 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

This thread has definitely made me realize how much I don't care about the situation.  Like I'm reading it and feel like I should care and want to be part of the conversation......but I don't.  Not sure why.  The situation in Venezuela I have way more interest in and it doesn't affect me any more than this one.

 

I've just given up. I cannot find a good-faith actor in the situation. I can find people saying things that indicate they're acting in good faith, but you usually can find actions right behind that to show otherwise.

 

Palestine needs to clean their own house before they start asking everyone to put the Hamas issue to the side (maybe they have? i stopped following this a few years ago... ) and Israel needs to act like the first world country they pretend and claim to be.

 

It feels like a situation where there's no adults in the room, and in those situations I usually just walk away. 

[Larry]

27 minutes ago, Destino said:

Stuff like that is why Jewish people feel they need their own state.  This jews control everything from behind the scenes thing, as you've posted, is classic antisemitism.  You've got to let that stuff go, its poison, and you definitely shouldn't post it here again. 

 

And yet, I think it's now 37 US states have laws on the books stating that any contractor who wants to do business with the government must sign away their constitutional right to conduct political protests that affect the economic interests of Israel.  

 

Is it an antisemitic conspiracy theory that Israel has the US government doing their bidding, when that fact exists?  

 

And is pointing out what an incredible outrage this is antisemitic?  Or anti Israel?  

[Koala]

On 3/12/2019 at 1:02 PM, grego said:

ok, i'll try this- @skinsgoldpants posted that he was not happy with Netanyahu, while saying how tough it is for Israel, being surrounded by countries that wish for your destruction (I agree with those points). you mentioned that "Palestinians are painted as a dangerous, anti semitic monolith". between those two posts, it brought to mind the charter of hamas, the elected governing party of the Palestinian people, where, up until almost two years ago, it called for the destruction of Israel. 

so, in my quest to determine who's the baddie, I am faced with your statement that calls for people to not be thought of as a monolith (one I endorse wholeheartedly), while weighing the reality of what Israel has been facing in hamas. 

Ok Hamas called for the destruction of Israel.  Oooh scary.  In reality what Israel has faced in Hamas is a group who is more interested in gaining control of Palestinian territory than regaining long lost territory.

 

Meanwhile Israel, having already destroyed much of historic Palestine, is busy eating up what little remains while convincing the world that, in fact, Palestine never existed at all.   

 

And about your "quest to determine who's the baddie", can I suggest that you try to evolve your worldview?  Instead of seeing good guys and bad guys, why dont you try just seeing people, and then look for justice and injustice?  

[Koala]

2 hours ago, tshile said:

 

I've just given up. I cannot find a good-faith actor in the situation...

It feels like a situation where there's no adults in the room, and in those situations I usually just walk away. 

Ok fine fair enough.  So why dont we suggest that the US govt do the same and stop all aid to both sides? Walk away with fistfuls of much needed American taxpayer money, and tell them either make nice or make do.  Seems like a reasonable suggestion.  So why is it impossible to sell to our government?

Edited March 13, 2019 by Koala

[Burgold]

I think part of the answer as to why Israel needs support can be found in the American experience. America is one of the most tolerant and safest countries in the world when it comes to religion yet today we find that...

 

Quote

The Hill has more:

Attacks against Jewish people accounted for 58.1 percent of crimes motivated by anti-religious bias last year, a 4-percent increase from 2016, while anti-Muslim crimes were down.

Anti-Muslim offenses accounted for 24.8 percent of anti-religious hate crimes in 2016 compared with 18.7 percent in 2017. Anti-Islamic crimes continue to remain at historic levels, and anti-Arab hate crimes doubled to 102 incidents, Voice of America noted.

 https://bjconline.org/fbi-report-religion-based-hate-crimes-up-22-in-2017-111318/

I bet if we asked what religious group suffered more violence against it in the US by more than a two to one margin most people would not have thought it'd be Jews... and that's in a country where Jews are treated well.

[tshile]

20 minutes ago, Koala said:

Ok fine fair enough.  So why dont we suggest that the US govt do the same and stop all aid to both sides? Walk away with fistfuls of much needed American taxpayer money, and tell them either make nice or make do.  Seems like a reasonable suggestion.  So why is it impossible to sell to our government?

 

Well, that will lead to a huge war of Israel vs the ME. I can be convinced that’s acceptable but it’s not an easy ask on a whim. 

 

The government views israel as an important piece to ME policy. You’re going to have to deal with that. They don’t care about the human suffering part of it. So you’ll have propose a better strategy. Sucks but that’s the way it works. 

16 minutes ago, Burgold said:

 

I think part of the answer as to why Israel needs support can be found in the American experience. America is one of the most tolerant and safest countries in the world when it comes to religion yet today we find that...

 

 

 

Thats great but there’s all kinds of crazy throughout the world and history and we choose to get involved some places and not others. There’s ethnic cleansing going on in Yemen and were providing the intelligence and weapons to do it. 

 

This idea that our government is invested in the moral or human aspect of this is romantic but not true. 

 

The right champions israel the hardest. You think they got their back because they feel aweful for the long suffering of the Jewish people?

 

or do you think that it’s a ploy?

 

how do you think they, in general, take their stances? (Rhetorical  )