KDawg Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Just now, ConnSKINS26 said: Well, depending on tie breakers we'd be picking between 8-12 instead of 15. That's an immediate, tangible difference. And yes I've maintained that without a meaningless win in the middle of that second half skid, which gave some hope that the players hadn't completely quit (that week), it would be much more likely we couldn't justify bringing Gruden back, and I don't think Allen gets another HC pick. I think it's very possible that one win ended up delaying lots of changes. It's also very possible that an additional loss wouldn't have changed a thing. I'm more of that opinion because... well... Redskins. Remember when the Browns were the butt of that joke? Something bad happens... "because Browns." "Browns gonna Brown". 🤡 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 5 minutes ago, KDawg said: It's also very possible that an additional loss wouldn't have changed a thing. I'm more of that opinion because... well... Redskins. Remember when the Browns were the butt of that joke? Something bad happens... "because Browns." "Browns gonna Brown". 🤡 Yes, very possible. That's why I also gave the definite benefit in addition to my speculation. Every loss is one step closer to Allen being gone, so I'd lean that way even without the draft pick bump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 35 minutes ago, Fresh8686 said: I feel like my team has been taken over by cancer (Dan and Bruce) and all I have to look forward to is the chemotherapy of crashing and burning in spectacular fashion to at least get these mother****ers in remission. That's a good summary for how I see it. I've been on the record that the football decisions here have been mediocre -- mostly good decisions on college scouting, mostly bad decisions IMO on pro scouting/FA. It averages out to so so. But the constant crap show outside of all of that makes 7-9 feel like 3-13. But I've had this feeling of hopelessness that they have mediocre figured out and an ugly form of mediocre where we are stuck in purgatory -- never very good, never really bad. Now, though I actually think there is enough going on where the mediocre finally doesn't hold and they have a 4-12, 5-11 season in them. So I am actually OK with bad decisions and things tracking that way. No complaints from me on the FA thread this year if they make a move I don't like. My main hope is the darkest before the dawn narrative. And I think they got some special things cooking on that front for an overdue bad season with fan fallout that will make last season look like child's play. Maybe they will turn it around, will see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Whats really bad about this whole situation is that I hang onto lottery ticket type theories like "we may just luck into the next Gibbs or Manning or Peyton". Whats even worse is that we have kinda done that with some of the guys that have been here, in the player realm, in the coaching realm, and in the front office realm. But now those guys are building dynasties elsewhere. And I don't even count this as a Dan Snyder or Bruce Allen problem. This has persisted since Gibbs 1 left, kinda since the start of the current form of free agency. I was so excited when Danny bought the team thinking he'd do something similar to what Cuban did with the Maverics. For some reason, I thought that with a young guy taking over and with the way the world was trending, that we'd....i don't know...take advantage of those trends and be a leader in things like innovation and analytics. I had hope for Gray, kinda still do. If he was the problem then so be it, but I find it hard to believe that a guy's star has fallen so far so fast, going from being such a legend that the teams DBs basically became VT grad chapter. Is this another thing similar to the Breeland thing 2 years ago? Is he a scapegoat for not quieting DJ? it'd be different if I didn't see a pattern and I don't want to look at the stats in this way, but is this another GW example? What was his opinion of letting go of DJ, or signing Foster, or just the general circus here? Is the thought that his ability to teach and develop players was overrated? Or is he a rising star that we don't care about? I mean, honestly if this is a true story, if we don't care about hanging onto rising stars on our staff, who's next? Kyle Smith? O'Connell? Phillips? It doesn't matter to me the records of Kyle Shanahan, LeFlur, Williams and McVay. It matters more that other teams recognized what we ignored. If this was a one time thing I could pass, bu this has been going on since Marty and Schneider, probably before that. So many names that showed promise and had potential but we got rid of them because "Redskins". If I cared more it would be frustrating, but now I just laugh and wait and read FanFiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dballer Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 9 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said: Whats really bad about this whole situation is that I hang onto lottery ticket type theories like "we may just luck into the next Gibbs or Manning or Peyton". Whats even worse is that we have kinda done that with some of the guys that have been here, in the player realm, in the coaching realm, and in the front office realm. But now those guys are building dynasties elsewhere. And I don't even count this as a Dan Snyder or Bruce Allen problem. This has persisted since Gibbs 1 left, kinda since the start of the current form of free agency. I was so excited when Danny bought the team thinking he'd do something similar to what Cuban did with the Maverics. For some reason, I thought that with a young guy taking over and with the way the world was trending, that we'd....i don't know...take advantage of those trends and be a leader in things like innovation and analytics. I had hope for Gray, kinda still do. If he was the problem then so be it, but I find it hard to believe that a guy's star has fallen so far so fast, going from being such a legend that the teams DBs basically became VT grad chapter. Is this another thing similar to the Breeland thing 2 years ago? Is he a scapegoat for not quieting DJ? it'd be different if I didn't see a pattern and I don't want to look at the stats in this way, but is this another GW example? What was his opinion of letting go of DJ, or signing Foster, or just the general circus here? Is the thought that his ability to teach and develop players was overrated? Or is he a rising star that we don't care about? I mean, honestly if this is a true story, if we don't care about hanging onto rising stars on our staff, who's next? Kyle Smith? O'Connell? Phillips? It doesn't matter to me the records of Kyle Shanahan, LeFlur, Williams and McVay. It matters more that other teams recognized what we ignored. If this was a one time thing I could pass, bu this has been going on since Marty and Schneider, probably before that. So many names that showed promise and had potential but we got rid of them because "Redskins". If I cared more it would be frustrating, but now I just laugh and wait and read FanFiction. You know, i kind of agreed, but then I started thinking about it, in terms of Gray, there is one difference between his shine and that of Kyles, Williams or McCvays...the DBs in general have not been great. They haven't necessarily been bad, but there hasn't been a ton of flashes of greatness either. Obviously there is plenty that goes into that and it may have noting to do with Gray's ability and/or future...but with the other's mentioned we saw legit flashes of success. And we saw what happened without them. We haven't ran the ball well since Shanahan left. Haven't had a defense anywhere near what Williams had. The offense had significant drop off after McVay left... I am not saying all of this doesn't happen in a vacuum. But, for all of the hype with Gray, i would have expected to see a little something more than what we have seen. From the outside, it is hard to say it is a mistake to let Gray go. Though, with this FO's history, it probably will end up being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said: Yeah the craziest part of it for me is it sounds like Torain isn't even gone yet. I was half listening to Hoffman on the radio this morning and I thought he said that but wasn't sure. But now Keim confirming that no one was fired yet. A. So you got a national reporter saying he heard Torain's gone. B. They are interviewing his replacement -- confirmed by a Denver reporter who knows said coach. C. You got a reporter saying Manusky wants some changes being done with the assistants -- with reporters talking about Manusky's beef with Torrain. D. You got players telling reporters implying that Pleasant who was slated to take Torain's job would have been better. E. In the same narrative you got that Jay and the FO are undecided whether Manusky stays or goes F. We got narratives that Tomsula might want to go and is tired of the craziness around the team G. In the mix of reporting it was revealed Manusky wants to replace Kirk Olivadiotti H. They interview Todd Bowles but supposedly didn't make him an offer and were just checking things out I. Both a local guy and a national guy say they were hot for Bowles and tried to land him. J. With a running narrative that they were rejected by other candidates before and are perhaps trying to work around that this time What do they have cooking next? 1 See, all this gives me the impression that nobody in the media actually knows what's going on, no matter who their sources are lol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 27 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: That's a good summary for how I see it. I've been on the record that the football decisions here have been mediocre -- mostly good decisions on college scouting, mostly bad decisions IMO on pro scouting/FA. It averages out to so so. But the constant crap show outside of all of that makes 7-9 feel like 3-13. I'd like to believe this, but I think we suffer from a "everything is fine" problem. Like, its the Aaron Rodgers problem from that draft. If we went into that draft looking for a QB, why didn't we draft Rodgers over Carlos Rodgers? Aaron was supposed to go 1 or 2 but dropped. But then we decide we need a QB and trade up to draft Campbell? SMH If a player is the best, we should draft him, no matter what we have at the position already. I remember asking this question years back when AP came out and we had CP, but we took Landry because we needed that position. And this is kinda going towards your argument for James over Payne. I can understand the trade downs, but even then its a question of "what are they really saying". Because as you showed in another post trading down for the sake of trading down is not always beneficial. The question is do we have a good enough evaluation of who is likely to be taken in that gap? Honestly what are we looking for at these positions? Where did we have Kittle ranked? And why did we pick Perine over him? The year Dallas got Prescott, we traded out of the 4th. Could have had him at 120, but instead drafted Nate at 187. Thats not to say we're doing a bad job but we're not taking the best players and sometimes we seem to be too set on number of picks instead of seeing where the values are, or maybe we've been overrating our scouts and personnel department guys because we want to believe that we're doing something right. All in all I think its a good formula for an 8-8 record (or like we've been the past 2 years 7-9). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HardcoreZorn Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 22 minutes ago, Califan007 said: See, all this gives me the impression that nobody in the media actually knows what's going on, no matter who their sources are lol... They don't. No one knows a damn thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 32 minutes ago, dballer said: I am not saying all of this doesn't happen in a vacuum. But, for all of the hype with Gray, i would have expected to see a little something more than what we have seen. From the outside, it is hard to say it is a mistake to let Gray go. Though, with this FO's history, it probably will end up being. Thats the same thing we said about McVay and Snahahan while they were here. They had Beck and Grossman as their starting QBs. After that season it wouldn't have surprised me if we cut the entire coaching staff. Would that make them less talented as coaches? Apparently we thought high enough of Gray that we didn't need to draft DBs high enough in the draft. Instead we were dealing with converted WRs and mid to low round picks. The question wasn't will they struggle this year it was how much will this year be a building block for next year, like Kendall Fuller's first year was. That said, if Dunbar doesn't go down we may have an entirely different opinion of the DBs this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 43 minutes ago, Califan007 said: See, all this gives me the impression that nobody in the media actually knows what's going on, no matter who their sources are lol... Or, maybe more likely that no one at Redskins park knows what they are doing... See, most people when 30 people tell them one thing and 1 person says the other, believe the 30. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 12 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said: They don't. No one knows a damn thing. The media is grasping onto what little they have to go off of. I’ve yet to see any of them firmly indicate they know anything for certain. It makes sense that the beat guys are utilizing their sources in the building and the national guys are hearing different from folks outside the building. So yes, nobody knows but it’s not like anyone is jumping out there saying they are certain of anything. What they do know for sure is that while other franchises are making moves they hope will better their organization, the Skins have fired the marketing team, maybe a DB coach, and “touched base” with Bowles, who has since joined Arians in Tampa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 6 minutes ago, Peregrine said: Or, maybe more likely that no one at Redskins park knows what they are doing... See, most people when 30 people tell them one thing and 1 person says the other, believe the 30. That's not what is happening, though...you have 30 people telling you 30 different things, and one person telling you it sounds like the other 30 don't actually know what's going on lol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canfan Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 10 minutes ago, Peregrine said: Or, maybe more likely that no one at Redskins park knows what they are doing... See, most people when 30 people tell them one thing and 1 person says the other, believe the 30. 30 people have told me that Bruce Allen has applied to the NFL to have us wear new helmets next year... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 20 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said: The media is grasping onto what little they have to go off of. I’ve yet to see any of them firmly indicate they know anything for certain. It makes sense that the beat guys are utilizing their sources in the building and the national guys are hearing different from folks outside the building. So yes, nobody knows but it’s not like anyone is jumping out there saying they are certain of anything. What they do know for sure is that while other franchises are making moves they hope will better their organization, the Skins have fired the marketing team, maybe a DB coach, and “touched base” with Bowles, who has since joined Arians in Tampa. I'd add there is also a difference between a report and reporting on what gossip they hear. Lets take the Bruce gone or not gone stuff. The ones talking about are even claiming they know -- they just said this is what they hear and they go out of their way to say they don't know for certain. That's gossip, they aren't saying its a report. Lets take the reports about the defense. The idea that the Redskins talked to Bowles. Multiple people said they did. That's a report. The idea that a Denver reporter talked to a defensive coach that he knows and he told him that he spoke to the Redskins. That's close to a report but not quite. The idea that they are looking to replace Manusky -- that's not a report but speculation based on what sources have heard -- but that's not a report. On the gossip type stuff. It's human nature, psych 101, to go down this way. The people who aren't fans of the FO are more inlined naturally to believe things that fit their predispositions -- with those predispositions formed on things they've seen over the years. In those cases, they don't give the FO the benefit of the doubt. The people who are fans of the FO relatively speaking or how ever they like defining themselves -- lets say they staunchly believe that the FO is far from perfect but still are given an unfairly bad rap, that group is more likely to believe the more positive bents and less likely to believe the negative bents. So gossip can be taken anyway people want. One side isn't right -- its just different perspectives. But some of things here are actual reporting. The idea that the Redskins talked to Todd Bowles is a report. The fact that Chris Russell goes he heard that they were hot for Bowles behind the scenes and Rappoport said Bowles with the Redskins top choice -- that's citing their sources-gossip. The idea that they want to move on from Manusky if they can find a better replacement than Manusky -- that's gossip, too. But at some point common sense kicks in, I doubt they are talking to Bowles for kicks and giggles. So the idea that they are hot for Bowles and want to move on from Manusky if possible doesn't seem like wild crazy speculation. The idea that just about every beat guy has been saying for weeks that Manusky is likely an off season casualty if they can find a good replacement -- they all seemed to converge on that point. Clearly, their sources didn't steer them wrong on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooleyfan1993 Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Gregg Williams has been relieved of his duties in Cleveland, if the redskins are smart they’ll hire him to run this defense. PLEASE!! Anybody but manusky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurgundyBooger Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Gregg hasn't been a permanent HC since the Bills back 15 years ago. Wonder what the deal is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Everything is coming up Greggg! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 23 minutes ago, Cooleyfan1993 said: Gregg Williams has been relieved of his duties in Cleveland, if the redskins are smart they’ll hire him to run this defense. PLEASE!! Anybody but manusky. Please no. Gregg Williams has never been a good DC, and fans are chosing to remember that 1 year. Williams has a decent defence 1 in every 3 years, and no consistency. In fact, Greg Williams has had 0 top 10 defenses in this last 7 seasons. So he would be perfect for the Redskins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowhunter Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 4 minutes ago, Peregrine said: Please no. Gregg Williams has never been a good DC, and fans are chosing to remember that 1 year. Williams has a decent defence 1 in every 3 years, and no consistency. In fact, Greg Williams has had 0 top 10 defenses in this last 7 seasons. So he would be perfect for the Redskins. Agreed. While you were posting this response, I was googling up Defensive rankings. Williams is no magician. This fanbase cannot clamor for upgrades, and then clamor for more of the same old mediocre...Can they?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said: J. With a running narrative that they were rejected by other candidates before and are perhaps trying to work around that this time What do they have cooking next? Is it K ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 As for the Gregg hate to each their own. My 2 cents He had top half of the league defenses in points 9 times. Top 5 -- 5 times. #1 in the league twice. Agree talent > coaching. Also agree no such thing as some magic wand coach. He has had bad years too but in the sea of his career he had plenty of good years -- easily beating Manusky and Haslett on that front. If I recall Manusky had a defense in the top 10 on points just once. But as for pedigree, the last time we had a defensive coordinator with a big rep was back when Gregg was here. A bunch of players to this day say he's the best D coordinator they ever had. I recall Gibbs said after he came back, he asked around with people he knew about who the best D coordinator is in the league who is available and hence he flew immediately to chase Williams. Having said that I think no way it happens. Dan would have to in a way admit he made a mistake by letting him go -- that doesn't seem like how he rolls. And ditto doubt Gregg would come back for similar reason -- ego. I'd be really impressed if Dan-Bruce hired Gregg because he so doesn't seem their type. Gregg will tell it like it is as opposed to being a get along to go along type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsmania123 Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 1 hour ago, Cooleyfan1993 said: Gregg Williams has been relieved of his duties in Cleveland, if the redskins are smart they’ll hire him to run this defense. PLEASE!! Anybody but manusky. Am I the only one that thinks this guy would be a decent head coach ? OK so Freddie kitchens helped with baker Mayfield but how the hell do you over look what apparently Greg Williams did? No one seems to want him as an HC . And I don’t know if Snyder is going to do thiS. What is their relationship like does anybody know? To finish my thought I’m thinking to myself if I’m Greg Williams and if he has a good relationship with Snyder I would come back to Washington as the defensive coordinator but I might have my eye on the head coaching job because things have not been going well here for Gruden. I mean at this point in his career he’s got to be looking for an HC position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeverSurrender Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Did I miss something or did we let Manuski go? Ill take Greg Williams all day if so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 If you don't want Gregg Williams here, just wait until they unveil their chosen one. All of a sudden, over looking Gregg will be seen as a big mistake. I have a hard time believing we will recruit a better alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, skinsmania123 said: Am I the only one that thinks this guy would be a decent head coach ? OK so Freddie kitchens helped with baker Mayfield but how the hell do you over look what apparently Greg Williams did? No one seems to want him as an HC . And I don’t know if Snyder is going to do thiS. What is their relationship like does anybody know? One insider type said Gregg and Dan patched things up but who knows. Gregg is an outspoken-ego type -- I'd presume he'd be a nightmare for Bruce in particular. Bruce seems to want to be the Alpha male in the room, wouldn't work with Gregg I don't think. So like I just said, Bruce-Dan would surprise me in a good way if they hired Gregg because he so doesn't seem their cup of tea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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