Hal2856

Switching to a 4-3 in 2019

Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, carex said:

 

not for us, we're barely ever in the base 3-4 and when we got to nickel we put Kerrigan and Smith or whoever is the other LB at ends, meaning Ionaddis, Payne or Allen come out

 

Well explain this to me. If Skins are in nickel and Kerrigan and Smith are playing ends and Payne, Allen, and Ionaddis are out who is playing tackle???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, hogdirty said:

 

I will not comment on the man's IQ, but if you feel the rest to be true than how can you argue they were playing him out of position?

Not they were playing him out of position - he was out of position, meaning he consistently blew assignments because he didn't know where he was supposed to be on any given play call. There's a hysterical radio interview somewhere with Armstead and Trotter where they rip on him for about twenty minutes straight for how clueless he was on the field, and yet how inattentive he was during team meetings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Riggo-toni said:

Not they were playing him out of position - he was out of position, meaning he consistently blew assignments because he didn't know where he was supposed to be on any given play call. There's a hysterical radio interview somewhere with Armstead and Trotter where they rip on him for about twenty minutes straight for how clueless he was on the field, and yet how inattentive he was during team meetings.

 

What was your point again? My point was he would be better as a 3-4 OLB playing towards his strengths your comments even back that up. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, hogdirty said:

 

Well explain this to me. If Skins are in nickel and Kerrigan and Smith are playing ends and Payne, Allen, and Ionaddis are out who is playing tackle???

 

 

I said or, OR.  One of the three comes out, not all of them.  In the 4-3 I'm proposing all three of them would be in most of the time.  Obviously there's still some rotation, giving guys a breather

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, carex said:

 

 

I said or, OR.  One of the three comes out, not all of them.  In the 4-3 I'm proposing all three of them would be in most of the time.  Obviously there's still some rotation, giving guys a breather

Allen and Ionnadis are not 4-3 DEs. Playcalling is more of an issue. 3-4 teams are better when they are more of an aggressive/attacking defense 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

The only guy who doesn't fit a 4-3 better is Ioannidis, simply because he doesn't have a position. He is actually optimal trade bait - 1) he has shown he is injury prone, 2) he is in the last year of his deal and is going to get very expensive & 3) has shown inconsistency (no sacks since the Giants game). It'd be worth looking into whether a player for player trade can be made for someone that can help in the secondary...maybe Jalen Ramsey

 

RDE: Open - would need to grab someone in the 270-280 range as the guy who plays this side is traditionally more of a runstuffer (these guys are Renaldo Wynn / Philip Daniels types and are generally cheap)

DT; Payne / Settle

DT: Allen / Brantley

LDE: Kerrigan / McKinzy

 

WLB: R. Foster / Harvey-Clemons

MLB: Hamilton / Vigil

SLB: Anderson / ?

 

 

 

 

Edited by method man

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

He looks tiny. Like a WR, and not even a plus sized WR. Extremely fast around the edge, and great bend, but no speed to power. He looks tiny. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, method man said:

The only guy who doesn't fit a 4-3 better is Ioannidis, simply because he doesn't have a position. He is actually optimal trade bait - 1) he has shown he is injury prone, 2) he is in the last year of his deal and is going to get very expensive & 3) has shown inconsistency (no sacks since the Giants game). It'd be worth looking into whether a player for player trade can be made for someone that can help in the secondary...maybe Jalen Ramsey

 

RDE: Open - would need to grab someone in the 270-280 range as the guy who plays this side is traditionally more of a runstuffer (these guys are Renaldo Wynn / Philip Daniels types and are generally cheap)

DT; Payne / Settle

DT: Allen / Brantley

LDE: Kerrigan / McKinzy

 

WLB: R. Foster / Harvey-Clemons

MLB: Hamilton / Vigil

SLB: Anderson / ?

 

 

 

 

But do you feel we are better enough making this switch? Or are we making too many players play out of position. Could Allen as DT next to Payne be the second coming of Sapp/McDougald in Tampa’s hay day? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Hal2856 said:

But do you feel we are better enough making this switch? Or are we making too many players play out of position. Could Allen as DT next to Payne be the second coming of Sapp/McDougald in Tampa’s hay day? 

 

I think you are thinking Sapp / Booger haha and yes.

 

I think the guys that are significantly better off in a 4-3 are Allen, Payne, Kerrigan and Anderson. Payne & Allen because combined they will face fewer double teams. Kerrigan is at his best rushing the passer - he is not a good run defender or in coverage so let him focus on what he does best. Anderson would be better off as a SLB in a 4-3 - he is a high football IQ assignment based player with average athleticism. He's better off spending more of his time defending the run / focusing on covering TEs than rushing the passer

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, method man said:

 

I think you are thinking Sapp / Booger haha and yes.

 

I think the guys that are significantly better off in a 4-3 are Allen, Payne, Kerrigan and Anderson. Payne & Allen because combined they will face fewer double teams. Kerrigan is at his best rushing the passer - he is not a good run defender or in coverage so let him focus on what he does best. Anderson would be better off as a SLB in a 4-3 - he is a high football IQ assignment based player with average athleticism. He's better off spending more of his time defending the run / focusing on covering TEs than rushing the passer

But you Ionidis 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ionnaidis was probably our best DL this year before he got injured. I don't think it was a coincidence that our defense's decline occurred right after he was slowed by injury. I don't see how one injury earns the designation as injury prone.

 

If anything, I could see using a version of the Vikings "Williams Brothers" era 4-3 or Chicago's Ted Washington/Sam Adams 4-3 they used during the Urlacher era with Payne and Settle as our version of the Beef Brothers and Ion man and Allen at DE, with Kerrigan at WIL. Question is, who would be our stud MLB going sideline to sideline? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Ion and Allen can play 4-3 DE just fine, but wouldn't be the explosive quick pass rusher. I don't think either Kerrigan or Smith are full time 4-3 starting DEs though, and Kerrigan is too expensive to be a rotational pass rush specialist.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

The guys we have now are really suited more for a 3-4 base as opposed to a 4-3 base. IMO anyone talking about putting Allen in at 4-3 DE hasn't watched enough college tape of him. I saw him at 4-3 DE on some snaps in his game cut ups at Alabama and he was quite noticeably less effective when lining up at 5 or 7 tech than when lining up at 3 tech, especially when pass rushing. He just doesn't have the first step or loose hips to bend the edge and beat Tackles that way; he was pretty easily stonewalled by good LTs and rendered ineffective. Same thing with Ioannidis. You'd be taking two top tier interior DL guys and wasting their talents as much as possible.

 

Including Settle who showed some serious flashes, we finally have a whole stable of young and talented guys who are ideally suited for DL duties in a 3-4 and we now want to move away from that base?

 

Either way, some of this is relatively moot. As others have pointed out, we're rarely in a pure 3-4 base as we line up in nickel very often and run lots of Under fronts that are generally pretty indistinguishable from a 4-3. 

 

Our defensive front is really good right now so I don't see a reason to mess with it. ILB is a bigger worry but if SDH stays healthy and continues to improve and Reuben Foster ends up playing for us we could have one of the most dominant front seven in the NFL.

Edited by mistertim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Speed and athleticism are the biggest no-shows at LB right now. Against the run they're good at slowing/stopping, but in passing downs, no. With the league going more and more pass happy, this becomes an easy target for opponents.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 1/4/2019 at 5:08 PM, hogdirty said:

Allen and Ionnadis are not 4-3 DEs. Playcalling is more of an issue. 3-4 teams are better when they are more of an aggressive/attacking defense 

 

Shift the SAM onto the LOS in a 4-3 under. Now you have a five man front: Kerrigan, Allen, Payne, Ion, SAM in a 4-3 personnel. 

Edited by KDawg
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

I think Ion and Allen can play 4-3 DE just fine, but wouldn't be the explosive quick pass rusher. I don't think either Kerrigan or Smith are full time 4-3 starting DEs though, and Kerrigan is too expensive to be a rotational pass rush specialist.


Kerrigan was made to play LDE. That's what he was projected as out of college and he would be great in that role. I would argue that he already mostly plays that role, since we mostly line up in a 4-2-5. How often does Kerrigan drop into coverage, or play in a two point stance. Is that his strength?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

Shift the SAM onto the LOS in a 4-3 under. Now you have a five man front: Kerrigan, Allen, Payne, Ion, SAM in a 4-3 personnel. 

 

You just described their current base defense. SAM/3-4 OLB are Smith, Anderson, or Mcphee  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, hogdirty said:

 

You just described their current base defense. SAM/3-4 OLB are Smith, Anderson, or Mcphee  

 

Arent you saying Allen, Payne, Ion aren’t on the field at the same time in our D? I’m confused. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Arent you saying Allen, Payne, Ion aren’t on the field at the same time in our D? I’m confused. 

 

I never said that. I would prefer they be on the field as much as possible since it took the Skins so long to get a line this good

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Take a look at how Melvin Ingrim is playing in this BALvsLAC game. He's excellent in the pass rush and stopping the run.  I was hopping when Ryan Anderson was drafted he would have this kind of impact because he is really are only true 3-4 OLB. The 3-4 allows your defense to be versatile and aggressive but if you don't call those plays you won't get the results. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/5/2019 at 1:00 PM, Riggo-toni said:

 

 

If anything, I could see using a version of the Vikings "Williams Brothers" era 4-3 or Chicago's Ted Washington/Sam Adams 4-3 they used during the Urlacher era with Payne and Settle as our version of the Beef Brothers and Ion man and Allen at DE, with Kerrigan at WIL. Question is, who would be our stud MLB going sideline to sideline? 

 

 

Easily the slowest front-7 in NFL history 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No argument here on that. I wasn't necessarily advocating that approach, just thinking out loud, and I did make the qualifier that we would need a fast sideline to sideline MLB, which we don't have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

Arent you saying Allen, Payne, Ion aren’t on the field at the same time in our D? I’m confused. 

 

they are in the base. we're rarely in the base

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, carex said:

 

they are in the base. we're rarely in the base

 

 

4-3 under isn't our base and they're on the field at the same time in that package.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.