The Washington Nationals Thread: The Future is Near!

[TheGoodBits]

4 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

Right,  you can calculate the present value of a contract with deferments. My issue was with:

 

I disagree with this part. 

Pretty sure it’s just JB who thinks that. 

[bearrock]

41 minutes ago, @SkinsGoldPants said:

 

It's not. It's not like they are a bottom team in terms of payroll. Right now they are in the Top 10. Last year they were in the Top 10. 2018 they were in the Top 10. Same with 2017.

 

I don't get the complaint here. 

 

DC market can support a higher spending team then the Nats current level of spending.  And with additional spending, Rizzo can build an even better team.  Only reason they are not doing it is because the Lerners have set the spending level below what the DC market can support.  What do you not get?

 

Edited January 17, 2020 by bearrock

[PleaseBlitz]

1 hour ago, @SkinsGoldPants said:

 

It's not. It's not like they are a bottom team in terms of payroll. Right now they are in the Top 10. Last year they were in the Top 10. 2018 they were in the Top 10. Same with 2017.

 

I don't get the complaint here. 

 

This discussion came up because JB posted an article (which was very good) that noted, among other aspects about how the Nat's market is very strong, that the Nats have the richest owner in baseball.  I quipped that they don't act like it.  If they acted like it, they'd be willing to go over the CBT and just pay the penalty, especially to keep a fan favorite, at a position of need, who just helped you win the WS and was arguably the most important player for you throughout the playoffs and is squarely in the middle of his prime.  The team is in the #7 media market and the Lerners have $6 billion.  They have one of the best GMs in baseball.  They have 2 more years of Scherzer.  They should let Rizzo build championship caliber teams, not force him to fit square pegs into round holes because they refuse to go over the CBT. 

[@DCGoldPants]

2 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

This discussion came up because JB posted an article (which was very good) that noted, among other aspects about how the Nat's market is very strong, that the Nats have the richest owner in baseball.  I quipped that they don't act like it.  If they acted like it, they'd be willing to go over the CBT and just pay the penalty, especially to keep a fan favorite, at a position of need, who just helped you win the WS and was arguably the most important player for you throughout the playoffs and is squarely in the middle of his prime.  The team is in the #7 media market and the Lerners have $6 billion.  They have one of the best GMs in baseball.  They have 2 more years of Scherzer.  They should let Rizzo build championship caliber teams, not force him to fit square pegs into round holes because they refuse to go over the CBT. 

 

My gut says the Lerners didn't become insanely rich by just overpaying vs. everyone else. Rizzo has been building championship-caliber teams with the budget he's had. I do agree about the luxury tax and how it's stupid to handcuff yourself to stay $1 under and we see that when they try reclamation projects in Rosenthal. 

 

Still, there is a huge difference between what they are doing vs the teams who are cheap AND aren't really rebuilding. Imagine being a Marlins, Rays, Pirates fans. Spending half of what Washington is and going nowhere.

 

Reality is that MLB needs a cap for the max and min a team should be spending. Miami spending 40M in 2020 when the Yankees are spending 243M is a joke and I don't blame people in Miami for not buying season tickets. Why would you pay Jeter for basically creating a farm team for the Yankees that he can ship off players for minimal returns?

[PleaseBlitz]

1 minute ago, @SkinsGoldPants said:

 

My gut says the Lerners didn't become insanely rich by just overpaying vs. everyone else. Rizzo has been building championship-caliber teams with the budget he's had. I do agree about the luxury tax and how it's stupid to handcuff yourself to stay $1 under and we see that when they try reclamation projects in Rosenthal. 

 

I'm sure they are savvy AF business people.  But buying a sports franchise is different.  You are buying a thing that exists for the purpose of generating civic interest and pride.  No owner should run a sports team for the purpose of lining their own pockets.  Like, your pockets are going to do just fine no matter what you do, you don't need to focus on it.  

 

Note:  The Lerners bought the franchise for $450 million.  It is now worth almost $2 billion.  

 

1 minute ago, @SkinsGoldPants said:

 

Still, there is a huge difference between what they are doing vs the teams who are cheap AND aren't really rebuilding. Imagine being a Marlins, Rays, Pirates fans. Spending half of what Washington is and going nowhere.

 

Totally agree.  I think the Lerners are good owners.  I'm just saying they don't act like the richest owners in baseball.  

 

1 minute ago, @SkinsGoldPants said:

 

Reality is that MLB needs a cap for the max and min a team should be spending. Miami spending 40M in 2020 when the Yankees are spending 243M is a joke and I don't blame people in Miami for not buying season tickets. Why would you pay Jeter for basically creating a farm team for the Yankees that he can ship off players for minimal returns?

 

I do feel bad for fans of teams where the ownership group isn't even trying to win, or doesn't know how.  Like the Redskins. 🤦‍♂️  

[@DCGoldPants]

I think we're at the point where we can honestly say "Ownership in DC spends....a lot. But they likely will never spend the most" and need to accept that. Hope/Asking for a little more to get this player or that player is fine. Generating civic interest and pride has been done. They won a title and followed it up by upgrading their bullpen and trying to address 2B. If they had also signed Rendon, we'd all be talking about how amazing they are while others would say they are buying titles. Whatever, you can't make everyone happy. 

 

The value of the team vs what they spent has a lot to do with how they've run it over the years. I also think this isn't Snyder buying the Skins and it's probably his biggest source of income now. I'd thing their business that made them rich enough to buy this team is still their biggest money maker.

[Dan T.]

This is a good place for the quote about Coach/GM George Allen from former Redskins owner Edward Bennett Williams:

”I gave him an unlimited budget and he exceeded it.”

[bearrock]

1 hour ago, @SkinsGoldPants said:

I think we're at the point where we can honestly say "Ownership in DC spends....a lot. But they likely will never spend the most" and need to accept that. Hope/Asking for a little more to get this player or that player is fine. Generating civic interest and pride has been done. They won a title and followed it up by upgrading their bullpen and trying to address 2B.

 

No one said they want the Nats to spend the most or spend like teams in LA or NY.  We're talking about spending into that first tier of cbt on a consistent basis (it doesn't even have to be every year).  Even in a down year, Nats turn about 20 mil in profit.  With the playoff revenue and likely increase in attendance (though that may be offset some by loss of a marquee name), Nats will likely see a substantial increase (Houston generated about 30 mil in additional revenue the season after their WS win).  Reinvesting substantial portion of that additional revenue into the team with a GM like Rizzo could set this team to have Boston like success over the next decade and a half (i.e. - multiple WS rings).  That cements a team's fanbase and revenue pool long term.

 

I would also tack on stop trying to work deferrals into every big contracts.  The jig is up and when a player like Stras takes the deferral, they are agreeing to a sizeable discount.  Great if the player will agree, but you have to back off if the player says no.  

 

Quote

If they had also signed Rendon, we'd all be talking about how amazing they are while others would say they are buying titles. Whatever, you can't make everyone happy. 

 

 Would any Nats fan have a problem with trying to "buy" titles?  I mean why would that be a problem?  Suppose Bezos buys the Nats says he will infuse a billion dollars every year to cover the team's losses.  Would any fan of the team have a problem with this?

[PleaseBlitz]

Yes to buying titles please. 

[@DCGoldPants]

Bottom line is that in the baseball world, the Washington Nationals are sitting pretty. They won. They beat a team that probably was cheating in the WS. They do spend money to compete. They don't value single players over the team. All this talk around culture and the Skins. The Nats actually have a damn good culture. 

 

This year is going to be a victory tour. Opposing fans (not divisional) are going to applaud them for taking out Houston. Repeating for a title is insanely hard. However, they are built to compete as long as like anybody, they have good fortune in health, development, and the where the ball goes when a bat breaks or the sun monster comes out.

 

 

[bearrock]

I'm just gonna say this.  People like me and PB are not saying Nats are somehow in a bad situation or that Rizzo is not incredible or that Lerners have not generally done a good job.  If you think the specific issue we are discussing is somehow trashing this team, you are totally misreading what is being written.  Saying that there are certain things that can be done better (specifically by the Lerners) is not some massive indictment of the team in general.

[Commander -JB-]

6 hours ago, skinsfan_1215 said:

Pretty sure it’s just JB who thinks that. 

It always takes two to tango, home slice.

[Commander -JB-]

48 minutes ago, bearrock said:

I'm just gonna say this.  People like me and PB are not saying Nats are somehow in a bad situation or that Rizzo is not incredible or that Lerners have not generally done a good job.  If you think the specific issue we are discussing is somehow trashing this team, you are totally misreading what is being written.  Saying that there are certain things that can be done better (specifically by the Lerners) is not some massive indictment of the team in general.

You can’t please everyone.  I’m sure some of the fans on this board were killing the Nats for trading Giolito/Lopez for Adam Eaton.  The thing about world championships is that they couldn’t be had without a collaborate effort from all 25 men.  Eaton was just as important to the title run as Rendon.  Same goes for Howie & Corbin & Hudson.  Fans can cry all day about Rendon leaving but you’re always going to lose guys when you win championships.  Player values go through the roof.  If Rendon had no interest in Nats offer even before the postseason started he knew damn well they weren’t just going to pony up more than 245 million just to keep him, when they already had to shell out 245 to keep Stras.  Nats actually have the third most $ allocated to players in 2021.  Looking forward you have to make smart decisions that keep you competitive but also don’t tie your hands.  Rizzo has tremendous vision.  You can say he didn’t sign Rendon for over 245 because Lerners won’t let him spend all you want.  I disagree.  You put a fair value on a guy and stick to that.  If the Angels want to pay Rendon 35 mill a year, fine.  Is he worth that?  I’d say not if the money you have tied up to Rendon/Trout keeps you from ever fielding a halfway decent pitching staff.  There’s so many layers to building a ball club and money doesn’t fix everything. We still have Turner/Soto/Robles awaiting bigger deals in the future.  Carter Kieboom is waiting in the wings ready for his opportunity to break out.  Who can you afford to lose more?  Stras or Rendon?  Who wanted to be here more?  You know that answer.

[bearrock]

@-JB- Do you even read what other people write?

[dyst]

So late to the party on this but damn, I remember during the World Series, so many posters here in awe at how much the Astro batters were disciplined and sitting on pitches. Now we know why smh.

[TheGoodBits]

8 minutes ago, dyst said:

So late to the party on this but damn, I remember during the World Series, so many posters here in awe at how much the Astro batters were disciplined and sitting on pitches. Now we know why smh.

It’s nuts to think about how much worse for baseball this scandal would have been if they’d won their second WS. And how ****ing furious all of us would be right now.  

Edited January 17, 2020 by skinsfan_1215

[TheGoodBits]

An interesting thought/theory just occurred to me. We won every game in Houston and lost every game in DC. Perhaps a contributing factor is that we knew they were stealing signs (was a poorly held secret at that point and the Nats admitted they had a system to foil it), and the Astros’ over-reliance on sign theft actually backfired. 
 

Basically, the Nats use their modified signs to falsely broadcast the pitch, and the Astros batters spend an inning or two whiffing until they catch on that “oh crap we don’t know what’s coming.” Then by the time they do start to decode, time to switch it up and fool them for another inning or two. Much harder to hit a slider/changeup when you are 100% sure a fastball is coming. 

[Commander -JB-]

3 hours ago, bearrock said:

@-JB- Do you even read what other people write?

Do you ever stop whining?

[Bacon]

Rendon probably "didn't want to be here" because we asked if we could pay him $5 mil and a fistful of coupons to Hank's Oyster Bar every year until the day of his death. 

[StillUnknown]

i'm not terribly upset about Rendon leaving. he still strikes me as guy that could wake up on a random tuesday and retire. i'm still not happy with how we seem to be planning on replacing him.

 

 

all that said, if Soto ever leaves i will cry a river of tears

[Riggo#44]

16 minutes ago, Bacon said:

Rendon probably "didn't want to be here" because we asked if we could pay him $5 mil and a fistful of coupons to Hank's Oyster Bar every year until the day of his death. 

That's enough. I've had enough of your Hanks Oyster Bar bashing! 

 

Rendon went to who paid him the most. About $30-40m more that anyone else was offering. They'll be looking at another Pujols situation in 2 years 

[Commander -JB-]

2 hours ago, StillUnknown said:

i'm not terribly upset about Rendon leaving. he still strikes me as guy that could wake up on a random tuesday and retire. i'm still not happy with how we seem to be planning on replacing him.

 

 

all that said, if Soto ever leaves i will cry a river of tears

Soto is where I draw the line.  You can never ever let him leave.  All-time great talent 💪

[Commander -JB-]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/01/17/dave-martinez-rookie-carter-kieboom-nats-third-baseman-he-can-do-job/

 

In his first public comments since baseball’s winter meetings, Washington Nationals Manager Dave Martinez laid out his clearest vision yet of how he hopes to use the roster this season. The plan centers on Carter Kieboom, the organization’s top prospect, filling the hole at third base, and it includes the seemingly probable return of Ryan Zimmerman and potential lineup shuffling to compensate for the absence of Anthony Rendon.

The vote of confidence for Kieboom was Martinez’s most striking statement Friday afternoon when he met with reporters at the SiriusXM studios in Northeast Washington. 

“We need to fill a void at third base, and we think he’s appropriate,” Martinez said of the 22-year-old. “He can do the job.”

 

When asked about the sign-stealing scandal that has rocked baseball and cost three managers their jobs this week, Martinez joked he heard about it because “they do have Google in Bali,” the Indonesian island where he and his girlfriend have been vacationing. But the manager followed Major League Baseball’s request for teams to not comment on the discipline levied against the Houston Astros. He did seem troubled, though, by what these managerial openings might mean for his coaching staff. Bench coach Tim Bogar was once a candidate for the New York Mets job that recently reopened after the team parted ways with Carlos Beltrán.

 

“It’d be tough to let guys go,” Martinez said. “We have our coaching staff set, and [other organizations will] have to get permission [to interview the coaches] this close in the game.”

The Nationals have plenty to sort out themselves. They will have three set infield positions if Kieboom pans out, but the rookie’s inexperience at third base makes that far from a given. Martinez wants to team shortstop Trea Turner with newly signed Starlin Castro as the “everyday” second baseman, because he said the team reviewed the 29-year-old’s defensive numbers and concluded second was by far his best position. The Nationals plan to platoon first base with left-handed hitter Eric Thames and a yet-unsigned right-handed hitter. Ryan Zimmerman fits the bill, and Martinez said the franchise remains in talks with the 35-year-old.

 

I do believe it'll happen,” Martinez said of a reunion.

 

Ryan Zimmerman took slap shots from Alex Ovechkin and Nicklas Backstrom at Caps practice

The key to the infield is Kieboom. The Nationals lost out on the Josh Donaldson sweepstakes Tuesday when he joined the Minnesota Twins, so the only other way the team could upgrade the position is via trade, which seems unlikely at this point.

Martinez believes Kieboom will hit, so he wants the rookie to focus primarily on defense at spring training. His development into even an average everyday player would prevent stretching the roster thin as the manager had to do during the team’s rocky start last season, and it would maximize roster flexibility. Martinez was asked whether he worried about replacing Rendon, an MVP candidate, with a rookie who made four errors in 10 games there for Class AAA Fresno last season.

 

“No,” the manager said, and he waved away concerns by citing Kieboom’s recent weight gain (15 to 20 pounds “of muscle”) and his instructions for Bogar to work with Kieboom at third early every day.

 

“The biggest thing about [Kieboom at third] is positioning,” Martinez added. “And I think once he learns how to play that position, and where to position himself, I think he's going to be okay.”

Kieboom, a natural shortstop, didn’t spend much time at third last season because the team focused his training on second base. That position, at the time, seemed a likelier avenue for him to the majors because the organization remained deep in talks with Rendon for a long-term extension. Then the third baseman had a monster postseason and earned a seven-year, $245 million contract with the Los Angeles Angels. The quick recalibration meant another reroute for Kieboom, a dizzying process Martinez wants to avoid this season so the team can “let him get used to playing third . . . and see what we got.”

 

“I want him to focus on just one position,” Martinez said. “If he’s going to be on our team, he’s going to play third base.”

 

Josh Donaldson lands with the Twins — and outside the NL East

If Kieboom doesn’t work out, or if the adjustment is slower than anticipated, Martinez said “we’ll cross that bridge when we get there.” He intimated the Nationals’ contingency plan is a platoon of veterans. There would probably be a heavy dose of Asdrúbal Cabrera and some Howie Kendrick.

[bearrock]

@-JB- Don't repost the entire article, especially from paywall sites like WP.  You're only supposed quote a small portion of the article.

[StillUnknown]

I hoped internally they were telling Kieboom to only focus on one position internally. As bad as he was defensively, we shouldnt complicate it by having him learn multiple spots. Let him put his attention on learning one.