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Trump Border Wall Post-Shutdown Discussion (Wall-Fight)

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2 hours ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

This is ridiculous

 

, and your complaint that it's not going fast enough for your taste is silly.  

 

Tell me with a straight face you dont think they have enough to get him out office while continuing the investigation. 

 

Short investigstion my ass, that's like counting how many seconds you got your hand on the stove, he is dismantaling the free world and in a dick measuring contest causing the longest shutdown in our history.  

 

If we weren't in a month long shut down with no end insight that for all we know might be intentional on his part, I'd agree with you.

Edited by Renegade7

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5 hours ago, RedskinsFan44 said:

BTW it looks like I was wrong about the votes tomorrow, I assumed Schumer and McConnell had agreed to vote for cloture for both proposals but reporting I am seeing is that they just agreed to allow votes for cloture. This seems odd to me though because McConnell has complete peower over that in my understanding.

It just means that both parties are filibustering each others legislation. McConnell is allowing cloture votes which require 60 votes to allow legislation to go for an up or down vote - Seems neither the Dems or Repubs want to allow an up or down vote on their opponents legislation.

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21 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Tell me with a straight face you dont think they have enough to get him out office while continuing the investigation. 

 

Even with damning evidence I'm not sure he is removed from office.  You would have to have the Senate ruled by the GOP and McConnell vote to remove him.  I just don't see that happening.  It's like he said, he could shoot someone in the middle of the street and get away with it.  He's here till at least 2020.  

Edited by HOF44
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22 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Tell me with a straight face you dont think they have enough to get him out office while continuing the investigation. 

 

Nobody outside of the investigation knows what they have.  You are making a crass assumption about a situation where assumptions are very dangerous.  I personally believe that Mueller is going to nail his ass to the wall and Trump and his family will face jail time.  But I also know that all of that can and probably will be lost if every aspect of the investigation isn't entirely above reproach.  If you want to destroy the credibility of the investigation, and thus make it pointless, you do that by rushing it.  In any event, removing him from office is a political question, and Mueller's report probably won't matter until after he's out anyways, other than hopefully making him un-re-electable. 

 

Quote

 

Short investigstion my ass, that's like counting how many seconds you got your hand on the stove, he is dismantaling the free world and in a dick measuring contest causing the longest shutdown in our history.  

 

If we weren't in a month long shut down with no end insight that for all we know might be intentional on his part, I'd agree with you.

 

I agree with your point, your feelings, but it's not Bob Mueller's job to stop that.  It's the job of Democrat lawmakers and, ultimately, the voters (of both parties). 

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, HOF44 said:

Even with damning evidence I'm not sure he is removed from office.  You would have to have the Senate ruled buy the GOP and McConnell vote to remove him.  I just don't see that happening.  It's like he said he could shoot someone in the middle of the street and get away with it.  He's here till at least 2020.  

 

This.  In terms of how Trump might not make it to 2020, I think it is far more likely that he quits or dies than is impeached and convicted in the Senate.  

Edited by PleaseBlitz

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6 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

Nobody outside of the investigation knows what they have.  You are making a crass assumption about a situation where assumptions are very dangerous.  I personally believe that Mueller is going to nail his ass to the wall and Trump and his family will face jail time.  But I also know that all of that can and probably will be lost if every aspect of the investigation isn't entirely above reproach.  If you want to destroy the credibility of the investigation, and thus make it pointless, you do that by rushing it.  In any event, removing him from office is a political question, and Mueller's report probably won't matter until after he's out anyways, other than hopefully making him un-re-electable. 

 

I do, too, so im not sure why you are calling what im saying crass when i don't believe it will take the full report to get him out like forcing cabinet into a 25th amendment situation.  We can talk about what it takes to turn McConnell on him, get him out of office, or put him in jail with information that probably is complete if they said February likely done.

 

  The dude is on top of our chest stabbing us and where trying to prove what organs he's hitting.  This is not a normal investigstion, there is so much at stake here, you get that we all get that, we just don't know what the tippy g point is waiting to long to just keep letting him do whatever he wants to do in the meantime. We're looking at possible permanent global damage after just two years.

 

6 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

I agree with your point, your feelings, but it's not Bob Mueller's job to stop that.  It's the job of Democrat lawmakers and, ultimately, the voters (of both parties). 

 

Fair, just think we all know this shutdown ends immediately when the report comes out, and telling of when it will end otherwise.  People can't eat feelings or political victories, we will see that if SNAP runs out.

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Elections have consequences, unfortunately. Again, I hope the long term effect of Trump is that the citizens of the united states understand that its not just their right to vote, but their duty. And if they dont this is what happens. 

 

Muller needs time to do this correctly if we are to come out on the other side better than we went in. My opinion obviously. 

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Just now, Renegade7 said:

 

I do, too, so im not sure why you are calling what im saying crass when i don't believe it will take the full report to get him out like forcing cabinet into a 25th amendment situation.  We can talk about what it takes to turn McConnell on him, get him out of office, or put him in jail with information that probably is complete if they said February likely done.

 

Oh my.  #1, use of the 25th Amendment is never going to happen, regardless of what is in the report.  These people are complete sycophants.  You should really consider stopping having any faith in them whatsoever.  #2, who said it would be done in February?  I'll answer that question:  Not Mueller.  I keep hearing people in the press assume that, but I've never heard anyone say why they think it.  

 

Just now, Renegade7 said:

 

  The dude is on top of our chest stabbing us and where trying to prove what organs he's hitting.  This is not a normal investigstion, there is so much at stake here, you get that we all get that, we just don't know what the tippy g point is waiting to long to just keep letting him do whatever he wants to do in the meantime. We're looking at possible permanent global damage after just two years.

 

For 2 years the GOP had full control of the government (because voters ****ed up).  That all comes to an end, Trump just doesn't understand that yet.  The fact that there is so much at stake with the investigation is an argument why it should be done correctly, however long that takes, not an argument that it should be done quick and dirty.  

 

Just now, Renegade7 said:

 

 

Fair, just think we all know this shutdown ends immediately when the report comes out, and telling of when it will end otherwise.  People can't eat feelings or political victories, we will see that if SNAP runs out.

 

I don't think the report and the shutdown are connected in any way, other than the shutdown is a way for Trump to keep the faith of his voters so that he'll have some political capital with GOP officials when the report does come out.  

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33 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

Oh my.  #1, use of the 25th Amendment is never going to happen, regardless of what is in the report.  These people are complete sycophants.  You should really consider stopping having any faith in them whatsoever.  #2, who said it would be done in February?  I'll answer that question:  Not Mueller.  I keep hearing people in the press assume that, but I've never heard anyone say why they think it.  

 

We don't know what the cabinet knows or would do if the entire country demands him out, like their own safety by doing nothing once the report is out type stuff.

 

Quote

 

For 2 years the GOP had full control of the government (because voters ****ed up).  That all comes to an end, Trump just doesn't understand that yet.  The fact that there is so much at stake with the investigation is an argument why it should be done correctly, however long that takes, not an argument that it should be done quick and dirty.  

 

 

I respectfully disagree, this reminds me of Obama "doing the right thing" not doing what he could to ring alarm something was wrong in fear it would help Hillary.  We seriously want to wait her for him to win another election to nail him for the first?  We might not survive that.

 

Quote

I don't think the report and the shutdown are connected in any way, other than the shutdown is a way for Trump to keep the faith of his voters so that he'll have some political capital with GOP officials when the report does come out.  

 

McConnell will flip to keep the GOP in control of the Senate the second he  believes Trump will cost him the Senate.  McConnell isn't loyal to Trump, his GOP first no matter how disgusting it gets...as long as GOP stays in power.

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3 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

We don't know what the cabinet knows or would do if the entire country demands him out, like their own safety by doing nothing once the report is out type stuff.

 

The entire remaining cabinet was chosen by Trump with the primary criteria being loyalty to Trump.  The 25th Amendment option is never going to happen.  Holding onto that hope is unhealthy.  You are stuck in the denial stage of grief.  

 

3 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

 

I respectfully disagree, this reminds me of Obama "doing the right thing" not doing what he could to ring alarm something was wrong in fear it would help Hillary.  We seriously want to wait her for him to win another election to nail him for the first?  We might not survive that.

 

This doesn't remind me at all about that situation.  In any event, your response has nothing to do with what I said.  I said we want the report done right, not quick and dirty (and therefore not 100% credible).  I don't think it's coming out in February, but I think it will come out before November 2020 and will hopefully ensure Trump is not a viable candidate for reelection.  It can only do that if the Sean Hannity's of the world cannot dispute it with a straight face.  

 

3 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

 

McConnell will flip to keep the GOP in control of the Senate the second he  believes Trump will cost him the Senate.  McConnell isn't loyal to Trump, his GOP first no matter how disgusting it gets...as long as GOP stays in power.

 

You are certainly correct about McConnell's loyalty, but McConnell also knows that, for more than 1/2 of his members, if they flip on Trump for any reason, they'll get abandoned by Trump's hardcore base, which is more than 60% of GOP voters.   

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39 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

The entire remaining cabinet was chosen by Trump with the primary criteria being loyalty to Trump.  The 25th Amendment option is never going to happen.  Holding onto that hope is unhealthy.  You are stuck in the denial stage of grief.  

 

I'm not a fan of the I word, but we've seen hints in GOP of having lines as well.  It's incorrect to think Trumps base is completely incapable of turning on him.  The polls show that, i know people that already have.

 

Quote

 

This doesn't remind me at all about that situation.  In any event, your response has nothing to do with what I said.  I said we want the report done right, not quick and dirty (and therefore not 100% credible).  I don't think it's coming out in February, but I think it will come out before November 2020 and will hopefully ensure Trump is not a viable candidate for reelection.  It can only do that if the Sean Hannity's of the world cannot dispute it with a straight face.  

 

And k never said quick and dirty, you did. I said we should have enough to change yhe conversation with verifiable evidence and we should not just let this stretch out another year or two.  When you say as long as it takes that's the other extreme if what you are accusing me of wanting.  As a lawyer i respect your frustration, but you need to chill and think about what im saying here and what really matters. Mueller has to prove how much of threat he actually is, but intelligence community had already said he is, that's co vonwe should be having right now, getting him out of power and putting him in jail are two separate things.

 

Quote

 

You are certainly correct about McConnell's loyalty, but McConnell also knows that, for more than 1/2 of his members, if they flip on Trump for any reason, they'll get abandoned by Trump's hardcore base, which is more than 60% of GOP voters.   

 

I've found articles that don't put the Trump base as that large, but don't want to because nobody agrees on a definitive number.  People like Cook don't think it's that large, others believe its smaller them when he first started and will be even smaller in two years with the never Trumpers waiting in the wings. 

 

This goes back to the difference between someone that is loyal to Trump versus approving of his America first plan.  Some would turn on Trump to go to someone else with same plan if they felt Trump actually was just doing stuff at the bidding of Putin, people underestimate this bloc, it will still be here when he's gone, Trump is replaceable.

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2 hours ago, HOF44 said:

Even with damning evidence I'm not sure he is removed from office.  You would have to have the Senate ruled by the GOP and McConnell vote to remove him.  I just don't see that happening.  It's like he said, he could shoot someone in the middle of the street and get away with it.  He's here till at least 2020.  

 

Based on what we think, not what we know.  I agree he will be, but that does not mean i agree with waiting past another election to to makes sure it's perfect if they possibly have enough to get him out now.  If he gets re-elected then doesn't face criminal charges until he gets out of office because of the Supreme Court, then what?

2 hours ago, Llevron said:

Elections have consequences, unfortunately. Again, I hope the long term effect of Trump is that the citizens of the united states understand that its not just their right to vote, but their duty. And if they dont this is what happens. 

 

Muller needs time to do this correctly if we are to come out on the other side better than we went in. My opinion obviously. 

Trump lost the popular vote.  We are hoping we come out of this at all at this rate.

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Pelosi is just destroying Trump. If he was a boxer, he’d be dead on the mat. Jesus.

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26 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I'm not a fan of the I word, but we've seen hints in GOP of having lines as well.  It's incorrect to think Trumps base is completely incapable of turning on him.  The polls show that, i know people that already have.

 

25th Amendment is about Trump being ousted by his own cabinet for being unable to execute the office of the President.  Not impeached by Congress.  

 

Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

 

Quote

 

And k never said quick and dirty, you did. I said we should have enough to change yhe conversation with verifiable evidence and we should not just let this stretch out another year or two.  When you say as long as it takes that's the other extreme if what you are accusing me of wanting.  As a lawyer i respect your frustration, but you need to chill and think about what im saying here and what really matters. Mueller has to prove how much of threat he actually is, but intelligence community had already said he is, that's co vonwe should be having right now, getting him out of power and putting him in jail are two separate things.

 

You are saying they should just wrap it up now because they have enough, even if they don't have everything.  I've done investigations and that's doing it quick and dirty.  Sometimes the situation calls for that, but I strongly do not believe that this is one of those situations.  Mueller's job is not to change the conversation, it is to 1) figure out exactly what happened and 2) bring criminal charges as appropriate based on #1.  Mueller's investigation will go down as a significant event in American history, it HAS TO BE done the right way.  

 

What is frustrating is people wanting Mueller to be a political actor.  That is the last thing he should do. 

 

I agree that the intel community has already largely weighed in.  Unfortunately, they've been largely ignored (which is crazy to me). 

 

Quote

 

 

I've found articles that don't put the Trump base as that large, but don't want to because nobody agrees on a definitive number.  People like Cook don't think it's that large, others believe its smaller them when he first started and will be even smaller in two years with the never Trumpers waiting in the wings. 

 

Charlie Cook has said "between 28 and 35 percent can be said to be his solid base."  If you do the math, if between 28 and 35% of all voters are Trump's hardcore base, that means between 56 and 70% of GOP voters are Trump's hardcore base.  I said "more than 60%" which is pretty damn close.  

 

Quote

 

This goes back to the difference between someone that is loyal to Trump versus approving of his America first plan.  Some would turn on Trump to go to someone else with same plan if they felt Trump actually was just doing stuff at the bidding of Putin, people underestimate this bloc, it will still be here when he's gone, Trump is replaceable.

 

I think that population of people is very small.  I think most of Trump's hardcore base just like him because he is 100% willing to be a total asshole to people they don't like (e.g., libruls, immigrants, people of color, "coastal elites," the media, you get the point) and "America First" is just a term that is broad enough to encompass "being a dick to certain groups of not-real Americans."  I think most of Trump's base will simply not believe any information negative for Trump.  It's sad, but I truly believe that based on my (blessedly few) acquaintances that are hardcore Trump people.  They will just say it is made up and that Trump is the victim.  

 

Trump's heir apparent is either Hannity or Stephen Miller.  Miller isn't old enough to be President. 

Edited by PleaseBlitz

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https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/01/23/donald-trump-state-of-the-union/2655940002/

 

Trump abandons plans to give State of the Union in the House, says he will look for another site

 

Quote

 President Donald Trump has abandoned his push to deliver the State of the Union address in the House chamber next week and says he will look for another location.

 

"We'll do something in the alternative," he told reporters Wednesday.

 

Trump's decision to scout out an alternative site for the speech followed another round of salvos between him and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi over the annual address.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

25th Amendment is about Trump being ousted by his own cabinet for being unable to execute the office of the President.  Not impeached by Congress.  

 

Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

 

 

Goddamn it, PB, you that pissed off you think i don't know the difference between impeachment and the the 25th amendement? Those are two legal options, I asked you to step back from the ledge, if you can't, maybe I'll just leave an let you believe whatever you want to believe, try this again another day.

 

I'm looking for ways to get him out, we know he needs to go and like many in Congress has said if Muller has something that can be used to get him out without compromising the investigation, f'n do it.  Trump has a gun to our head and we're waiting for the cops to show up, I have every right to be frustrated and concerned at minimum. We all do.

 

11 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

You are saying they should just wrap it up now because they have enough, even if they don't have everything.  I've done investigations and that's doing it quick and dirty.  Sometimes the situation calls for that, but I strongly do not believe that this is one of those situations.  Mueller's job is not to change the conversation, it is to 1) figure out exactly what happened and 2) bring criminal charges as appropriate based on #1.  Mueller's investigation will go down as a significant event in American history, it HAS TO BE done the right way.  

 

With respect to how investigations work, so be it. But holy ****, man, i don't want to hear it if they are still investigating him after he's re-elected.  If they have charges that doesn't need additional investigstion, i want to know.  The world is shifting toward authorianism, this investigation has a lot more at stake then just us.

 

11 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

What is frustrating is people wanting Mueller to be a political actor.  That is the last thing he should do. 

 

This isn't about politics anymore we talking survival of the free world keeping this guy from getting reelected.

 

11 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

I agree that the intel community has already largely weighed in.  Unfortunately, they've been largely ignored (which is crazy to me). 

 

My point exactly, we can stop right here and go no further. Should i have lead with that? I thought we were all in the same page about this going in.

 

11 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

Charlie Cook has said "between 28 and 35 percent can be said to be his solid base."  If you do the math, if between 28 and 35% of all voters are Trump's hardcore base, that means between 56 and 70% of GOP voters are Trump's hardcore base.  I said "more than 60%" which is pretty damn close.  

 

 

I'd like to hear his definition of Trump base then

 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12118280

 

11 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

I think that population of people is very small.  I think most of Trump's hardcore base just like him because he is 100% willing to be a total asshole to people they don't like (e.g., libruls, immigrants, people of color, "coastal elites," the media, you get the point) and "America First" is just a term that is broad enough to encompass "being a dick to certain groups of not-real Americans."  I think most of Trump's base will simply not believe any information negative for Trump.  It's sad, but I truly believe that based on my (blessedly few) acquaintances that are hardcore Trump people.  They will just say it is made up and that Trump is the victim.  

 

Agree and refer back to previous link.  Most of my Trump friends like he says what's on his mind so they know what he's thinking, even if it's terrible.  Not a fan of this logic, but they have lines in what he's done and what he's being accused of.  The "no matter what" crowd is NOT 60% to 70% of the GOP.

 

11 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

Trump's heir apparent is either Hannity or Stephen Miller.  Miller isn't old enough to be President. 

 

I wish it was someone truly weak minded like that, but I whole-heartedly believe it will be someone who learns from Trumps mistakes and comes out like a new version of Ultron.  Why I'm stressing the plugging if loopholes, that dude is probably already in office somewhere.

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