Trump Border Wall Post-Shutdown Discussion (Wall-Fight)

[spjunkies]

I really feel sorry for contractors in this situation. I was one during the 2013 shutdown and I was fortunate enough to have plenty of leave that covered my pay, but some of my co-workers weren't so fortunate. I know some in Congress don't think that Feds dont live paycheck to paycheck, but I do so if this impacts pay in 2 weeks I'll be SOL.

 

No matter what, dont put a penny toward the silly wall.

[bearrock]

1 hour ago, Llevron said:

So what is the right move for dems now? And what about the repubs? I'm curious to known what you guys think is not only politically expedient, but actually the right thing to do for the country. 

 

Maybe we need a spending bill amendment.  At the expiration of every spending bill, Congress must affirmatively vote for a shutdown and President must sign it or all government expenditure is maintained  at current level and the debt ceiling is automatically raised.  No amendment proposals allowed, just an up or down vote.  That way Congress and the President would have to affirmatively shut the government down and the result of gridlock is status quo, not government shutdown.

[Bozo the kKklown]

 

[bearrock]

1 minute ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

 

 

I wonder if Trump would agree to a compromise where Dems agree to $25 billion in "border security package".  Not a wall, but increased agent presence and technology implementation at the border, combined with more budget for efficient and speedy processing of immigration petition with focus on asylum petitions.  They could even agree to compromising on certain immigration procedures that needs updating (alternative to catch and release for example) and extend DACA.  The last bit is probably a pie in the sky, but couldn't Trump try to go sell that he got his "Wall", but a more technologically advanced version of it?  

[Bozo the kKklown]

2 minutes ago, bearrock said:

 

I wonder if Trump would agree to a compromise where Dems agree to $25 billion in "border security package".  Not a wall, but increased agent presence and technology implementation at the border, combined with more budget for efficient and speedy processing of immigration petition with focus on asylum petitions.  They could even agree to compromising on certain immigration procedures that needs updating (alternative to catch and release for example) and extend DACA.  The last bit is probably a pie in the sky, but couldn't Trump try to go sell that he got his "Wall", but a more technologically advanced version of it?  

Pass the bipartisan senate bill and then override that fatty’s veto.

[The Evil Genius]

When do the Dems officially regain majority in the house? The first Monday of January? I'd suspect they already have a bill ready for vote. 

[Bozo the kKklown]

2 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

When do the Dems officially regain majority in the house? The first Monday of January? I'd suspect they already have a bill ready for vote. 

January 3rd

[Fergasun]

@TheGreatBuzz
@NoExcuses

Passing the Senate bill is Exactly right. I keep reading, "this is Trump's last chance for a wall." Hogwash. What did Trump do? He tied himself to Tom Cotton's more restrictive plan.

He was never getting a wall in a Senate without conditions that get Dems onboard. House conservatives want to throw a tantrum on their way out.

One of Trump's selling points was dealmaker and Democratic donor. When DACA expired, he had the perfect oppurtunity to get funding for the wall. All he had to do was meet with Chuck and Nancy and work out a deal. When the nativist/racist folks (Stephen Miller) are part of the negotiations, it poisons everything. They need to be left out of it.

Alternatively, you go to Chuck, Mitch, and their committee chairs and say "work out a framework" for immigration reform (hint -- there is probably an 80% solution already done).

The other problem is, we live in a political world where, fighting, not dealmaking wins votes and election. PACs fund fighters, dealmakers and pragmatics or realists get re-elected.

Most political fights are determined by the Congressional makeup. 53-47 Senate for the GOP and and 235-200 House for the Dems... and the Dems are given a "fight back / resist" mandate. No one is going to be interested in making a deal.

Trump doesnt have a national mandate for a wall anymore. He used his political capital on Obamacare repeal and tax cuts. No one seemed to care that he didnt campaign for tax cuts.

[TheGreatBuzz]

I keep seeing Coast Guard is now working for free because they fall under DHS.  My understanding is that DHS employees will get paid until January 11th.  Is there a Coast Guard exception?  Or is this news more of the same misrepresentation?  Or am I just totally wrong?  Just trying to make sure I have my facts straight. 

[The Evil Genius]

8 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I keep seeing Coast Guard is now working for free because they fall under DHS.  My understanding is that DHS employees will get paid until January 11th.  Is there a Coast Guard exception?  Or is this news more of the same misrepresentation?  Or am I just totally wrong?  Just trying to make sure I have my facts straight. 

 

It would be news to Coast Guard Spokespersons that they'd be getting paid.

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/42-000-coast-guard-members-are-only-military-branch-work-n952066
 

Quote

"Unless legislation is passed by Friday, Dec. 28, our military workforce will not receive our regularly scheduled pay check for 31 Dec.," Chief Warrant Officer Allyson Conroy said in a statement to NBC News on Wednesday.

The Coast Guard is the only part of the military under the Department of Homeland Security, rather than the Department of Defense which continues to be funded during the shutdown.

As for the thousands of people in the Coast Guard's civilian workforce, most have been furloughed without pay until further notice, with a small fraction still working as essential personnel.

Edited December 27, 2018 by The Evil Genius

[LD0506]

[The Evil Genius]

Also should have said that Federal agencies (such as DHS) cannot spend money ahead of appropriations. Thus the no pay for essential workers and furlough of non-essential workers. 

 

In all likelihood, both will get full back pay when the CR or budget is approved. Doesn't help though now when that pay is needed. 

Edited December 27, 2018 by The Evil Genius

[Fergasun]

Military has a different pay schedule than civilians (I always thought their biweekly pay days were the non-civ pay Fridays) so I think people in the Coast Guard could be impacted January 4th... but I don't know 100%.

[No Excuses]

Trump could have governed on immigration closer to the center-right than the far right where nativist assholes who push a radical agenda thwart any legislative attempts at bipartisan reform. 

 

Along the way he could have gotten money for a dumb wall and a rewrite of our legal immigration laws in exchange for amnesty.

 

No future admin would have had any political capital to do major immigration reform. 

[Fergasun]

@The Evil Genius
That (Federal agencies cannot spend forward appropriation) is something technical that happened with OPM and DoD rulings that was different in the previous shutdowns. There are also different funding gaps that are weird.

During the last CR lapse, my agency was prohibited from using current FY money because we were shutdown. We had to use previous FY money *only*. This was different than other shutdowns we went through because:
Those occurred at the end of last FY (October) and we had no carryover.

We used to be able to spend current year appropriations, so our HQ would give us enough up front and assume we would keep working (albeit with delayed paychecks) if appropriations lapse. The Trump administration had an interpretion different than Obama....

[Larry]

1 hour ago, Fergasun said:

When the nativist/racist folks (Stephen Miller) are part of the negotiations, it poisons everything. They need to be left out of it.

 

Miller, ingram, and Hannity. 

 

Mine of the proposals Capital Hill already proposed was the same amount, spent on actual border security. Trump agreed to it, watched Fox News, and changed his mind. 

[visionary]

 

 

 

[Larry]

Trump really thinks he's winning this. 

 

(Wonder who's telling him that. Fox?)

[bearrock]

Coast guard situation is total BS.  Not just them.  If a person is essential enough to be required to work during the shutdown, they shouldn't have to wait until after the shutdown is over to get paid.

[Renegade7]

3 hours ago, No Excuses said:

 

Along the way he could have gotten money for a dumb wall and a rewrite of our legal immigration laws in exchange for amnesty.

 

 

I'd been thinking about this since i realized Trump was serious, but doubt it will ever happen (id live with it).  The wall is retardedly inefficient, but my biggest problem with that plan was the attempt to do that INSTEAD of immigration reform when we could do both with everybody happy enough.

[No Excuses]

8 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I'd been thinking about this since i realized Trump was serious, but doubt it will ever happen (id live with it).  The wall is retardedly inefficient, but my biggest problem with that plan was the attempt to do that INSTEAD of immigration reform when we could do both with everybody happy enough.

 

Trump’s nativist base wants both the wall and a near-elimination of our legal immigration system.

 

Just like any group of extremists, they think they should get this without having to give up anything substantial in exchange. 

 

By the end of this, they will likely neither have a dumb wall nor a major rewrite of US legal immigration.

 

In contrast, Democrats got healthcare reform done in 2010 by compromising on a public option. Now we at least have a patchwork system that protects pre-existing conditions and expanded Medicaid to a good portion of the country. It worked well enough that GOP had zero political capital to do healthcare reform when they had the chance. 

 

The GOP could have shut down the immigration debate for another decade, probably just by even giving amnesty to Dreamers only. 

Edited December 27, 2018 by No Excuses

[Renegade7]

2 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

 

Trump’s nativist base wants both the wall and a near-elimination of our legal immigration system.

 

Just like any group of extremists, they think they should get this without having to give up anything substantial in exchange. 

 

By the end of this, they will likely neither have a dumb wall nor a major rewrite of US legal immigration.

 

In contrast, Democrats got healthcare reform done in 2010 by compromising on a public option. Now we at least have a patchwork system that protects pre-existing conditions and expanded Medicare to a good portion of the country.

 

Agreed. 

 

I wasnt the biggest fan of ACA, but i knew it ended up way it did so they could get something with idea they could come back and add to it. 

 

What we're seeing is the result of people being told negotiating with people of different view points is bad when the  whole point of the design of our government was how to do it.

[Forehead]

7 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I keep seeing Coast Guard is now working for free because they fall under DHS.  My understanding is that DHS employees will get paid until January 11th.  Is there a Coast Guard exception?  Or is this news more of the same misrepresentation?  Or am I just totally wrong?  Just trying to make sure I have my facts straight. 

 

Not sure what you're talking about.  January 11th (or that general weekend) is the time of the first missed paycheck.  Most Federal employees are getting paid this weekend but that's for work done two weeks ago, etc.  So no, a lot of people are not getting paid right now.  They're working, and they'll get back paid when it is all over, but they won't get paychecks on January 11th unless this gets figured out beforehand.  So they are technically working for free right now.  

 

Assuming the past holds, all 800,000 or so employees who are affected like this will eventually get paid.  The difference is half of them are still forced to report to work and work for free, and half are deemed Non-Essential and told to stay home.

 

As an example, I work for CBP.  Our CBP Officers, Border Patrol Agents, etc...they're all still working the border.  I'm not actually clear is they're getting paychecks or not, but I don't think so.  Either way, they still have to show up.  Those classified as support staff...your attorneys, HR specialists, internal affairs folks, procurement and contracts officers, the office I'm in, etc...are deemed non-essential during this whole thing and told not to show up.

 

TL:DR...people are getting paid this weekend for work done before the shutdown.  The water gets turned off afterwards.

[Cooked Crack]

 

Shutdown never ending.

[Nerm]

10 hours ago, spjunkies said:

I really feel sorry for contractors in this situation. I was one during the 2013 shutdown and I was fortunate enough to have plenty of leave that covered my pay, but some of my co-workers weren't so fortunate. 

 

I'm doing some contracting for a company that contracts for treatment services  in the Bureau of Prisons.  I called the company to see if I should still be providing treatment to people during the shutdown.  The company didn't know, and they told me the person who could answer that will not be able to tell me until the shutdown ends.  I'm continuing to provide mental health services at this point.  If I don't get paid, I'll live, these guys need someone to give a damn about them.  But, I have to say, I will think twice about ever working with the federal prison system again... Regardless of why this shutdown happened.