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Budget Fight (Trump Mantle / Border Security Shutdown))

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Posted (edited)

I really think that Democrats should pass a law:

 

Path to citizenship for dreamers.

Increase in capital gains taxes for anybody with an income over $1 million a year/alter inheritance tax

1/3 to go to the wall up to $5 billion

1/3 to go to implementation of renewable energy sources

1/3 to go to states to help cover cost of higher education that spend more than X% (don't know what the number would be) of that collected on in state tuition for higher education (i.e. give states that are putting money into higher education more money to encourage all states to put more money into higher education).

 

After $5 billion to the wall, 1/2 renewable energy and 1/2 to higher education

Edited by PeterMP
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"It's the Democrat's fault for not giving the guy making demands what he demands". 

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1 hour ago, Larry said:

"It's the Democrat's fault for not giving the guy making demands what he demands". 

Isn't that always the reason for government shut downs though?  One side wants the budget to include or not include X, the other side disagrees, and a shut down ensues. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, RedskinsFan44 said:

I thought Pelosi Schumer did better than Trump, though I am definitely biased. Trump delivered tired talking points while sucking air audibly through his nostrils. Pelosi/Schumer,while visually awkward, were at least on topic and comparatively coherent.

 

Trump was awful.  His appearance and delivery were bad, as usual, and the content was essentially the same things he's been saying since the campaign.  With Trump it's really no longer a question of "was it bad" because it's been pretty much entirely bad.  This was just a waste of everyone's time that stank of desperation. 

 

Pelosi and Schumer had a chance to present the American people with the democratic alternative.  A vision to support instead of just noting that they oppose whatever Trump is doing.  They didn't, because the democratic party doesn't have an immigration plan to offer.  They could have saved us all some time by just saying: "whatever Trump proposes on this issue we will oppose, while calling him a racist.  We won't actually try to pass anything that will change the status quo however, as that would be less popular than what we're doing now." 

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, Destino said:

Isn't that always the reason for government shut downs though?  One side wants the budget to include or not include X, the other side disagrees, and a shut down ensues. 

 

 

 

One side wants the budget to include or not include X, and decides that he will shut down the government if he doesn't get his way

 

It only takes one side to change 

 

"I want X"

 

"I don't want it"

 

"I want X"

 

into 

 

"I want X and will refuse to let the government function unless I get it". 

 

The act of linking the argument over X to whether the government will continue to function. 

Edited by Larry
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24 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

One side wants the budget to include or not include X, and decides that he will shut down the government if he doesn't get his way

 

It only takes one side to change 

 

"I want X"

 

"I don't want it"

 

"I want X"

 

into 

 

"I want X and will refuse to let the government function unless I get it". 

 

The act of linking the argument over X to whether the government will continue to function. 

 

I want X and will refuse to let the government function unless I get it” can not result in a shut down without: “I would rather allow the government to shut down than give you X.”  

 

Both sides being involved in this outcome doesn’t means they are both equally wrong, but it does make it largely a matter of opinion.  It comes down with who we agree with, which is sort of a big deal in a democracy.  In this case (and really, all others), for me, it’s not Trump.  He should open the government and beg for his stupid fence when it’s not costing families their paychecks. 

 

It all stinks of desperation to me.  

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, Destino said:

 

I want X and will refuse to let the government function unless I get it” can not result in a shut down without: “I would rather allow the government to shut down than give you X.”  

 

Yes, I am aware that after one side decides to link his position to a government shutdown, the other side can choose to give in. 

 

But it is significant that only one side chose to link his argument to shutting down the government. 

 

And that is still the case, here. The Dems are perfectly willing to reopen the government, at current spending levels, and go back to debating The Wall without linking that debate to a shutdown. 

 

The wall debate and the shutdown debate are the same debate because one side is demanding that it be so. 

 

Trying to argue that "well, the shutdown is the Dems fault, because they could give Trump what he's demanding" at least has parallels to arguing that "well, it's the US' fault that that soldier got beheaded, because they could have withdrawn all support to Israel, like ISIS demanded". 

 

Only one side decided to link the debate over Issue X with "or else I'll do Y, too". 

Edited by Larry

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Destino said:

Trump was awful.  His appearance and delivery were bad, as usual, and the content was essentially the same things he's been saying since the campaign.  With Trump it's really no longer a question of "was it bad" because it's been pretty much entirely bad.  This was just a waste of everyone's time that stank of desperation. 

 

Pelosi and Schumer had a chance to present the American people with the democratic alternative.  A vision to support instead of just noting that they oppose whatever Trump is doing.  They didn't, because the democratic party doesn't have an immigration plan to offer.  They could have saved us all some time by just saying: "whatever Trump proposes on this issue we will oppose, while calling him a racist.  We won't actually try to pass anything that will change the status quo however, as that would be less popular than what we're doing now." 

 

100% agree.

 

Optics matter for them more than Trump. He can get up there. Look like he has no energy. Breathe weird. Sniff weird. It doesn't matter.

 

Schumer and Nancy got up there and the optics/delivery were poor.

 

I get you want your "leadership" there because you have no idea what Trump will end up saying and would like the people from the talks speaking. But man. They are so unlikable and have no self-awareness. You followed an old white guy with two more old white people to respond. Oh wait....here comes Bernie. Make it four. Now they have enough people to play Canasta.

 

 

Edited by @SkinsGoldPants
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Trump's an idiot.  The deal-making ability he always brags about is bull****.  He backed himself into a corner on this issue and he's going to have to take an L on this.  Shows how ****ing desperate he is to distract attention away from the Mueller investigations.

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Has the AP lost its damn mind?  Next hot take: "Robber's demand for money is one reason for the robbery, but victim's refusal is another." WTF?

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1 minute ago, bearrock said:

Has the AP lost its damn mind?  Next hot take: "Robber's demand for money is one reason for the robbery, but victim's refusal is another." WTF?

 

Defining him as a robber or extortionist is fake news :pint:

 

you either need his approval/consent or you find a way around it.

 

 

 

 

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This is a fake shutdown. A true shutdown would literally shut down the government. No planes would be flying. No mail delivered. Military not paid. ETC.. 

 

A true shutdown would never happen because it wouldn't even last a few hours.

 

Mr. Dealmaker can only blame himself. They had a deal last year, 25 Billion for DACA. Trump blew that up because he wanted more anti-immigration stuff in the bill.

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I know I said I wasn't going to watch, but I did. And my head was going to absolutely explode if the camera zoomed in any more. At first, it was because his hands were doing dumb ****, and he didn't have a wedding band on...(hmmm, curious--does he normally wear one?)...but they kept going and I realized he's really, really nasty. Just eww.

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Kind of amazing how much the shrill demonization of Alexandra Ocasio Cortez by the right wing media has backfired and made her into a star.  She is a 20 something freshman congressman and they've made her into the voice of the opposition to Trump and put her on the same level as the president.  Turn the smart, good-looking 29 year old Latina who effortlessly emasculates you into a household name.  That's a great idea.

 

She's going to make leftism mainstream.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Larry said:

 

One side wants the budget to include or not include X, and decides that he will shut down the government if he doesn't get his way

 

It only takes one side to change 

 

"I want X"

 

"I don't want it"

 

"I want X"

 

into 

 

"I want X and will refuse to let the government function unless I get it". 

 

The act of linking the argument over X to whether the government will continue to function. 

 

Sorry. This is dumb. Trump (and many other presidents) had no choice but to shut down the boarder wall if he wanted any leverage to get what he wants in a bill. This time is no worse than any other time it has been done.

 

Both sides are responsible for the shutdown. The shutdown will only end when one side feels like what they believe in isn’t worth the political price of shutting down the government. I think the dems probably win this one because trump is not popular. On the other hand his 34 percent is really committed and he’s got bothing to loose. So maybe enough republican senators will have to side with the dems over the president to force an override...

 

Right or wrong trump has zero leverage over the democrats except for the government shutdown. If he doesn’t link the two he gets nothing for his border wall. Saying he should keep the two issues separate is saying he should give up his only source of leverage. 

Edited by CousinsCowgirl84

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1 hour ago, twa said:

 

Defining him as a robber or extortionist is fake news :pint:

 

you either need his approval/consent or you find a way around it.

 

 

 

 

I think this ends with an over-ridden veto or the national emergency gambit, with the national emergency the front runner because when he sees the Senate Rs breaking he will take that option. Other possibility is some sleight of hand compromise where he can say he got the wall and Ds can say he didn't, but I see the Senate Rs cracking before that.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/01/trump-aides-fear-the-wall-will-be-his-alamo

 

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1 hour ago, Rdskns2000 said:

This is a fake shutdown. A true shutdown would literally shut down the government. No planes would be flying. No mail delivered. Military not paid. ETC.. 

 

A true shutdown would never happen because it wouldn't even last a few hours.

 

Mr. Dealmaker can only blame himself. They had a deal last year, 25 Billion for DACA. Trump blew that up because he wanted more anti-immigration stuff in the bill.

1

 

This a partial shutdown, not a fake shutdown.  Lets not give either side the benefit of saying its something less then it actually is, I want to kick all them in the teeth when then in insinuating this is just an inconvenience for people, easy to say for people that are rich.

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1 minute ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

 

Sorry. This is dumb. Trump (and many other presidents) had no choice but to shut down the boarder wall if he wanted any leverage to get what he wants in a bill. This time is no worse than any other time it has been done.

 

Both sides are responsible for the shutdown. The shutdown will only end when one side feels like what they believe in isn’t worth the political price of shutting down the government.

 

Right or wrong trump has zero leverage over the democrats except for the government shutdown. If he doesn’t link the two he gets nothing for his border wall. Saying he should keep the two issues separate is saying he should give up his only source of leverage. 

 

Oh, now that's a good one. 

 

The shutdown is the Dem's fault because they didn't give in to Trump's demands before the shutdown. 

 

Granted, that would have required them to give in to his demands before he made them. Since Fox News didn't tell him to shut down the government until like 2-3 days before he did it. But hey, picky, picky. 

 

Now, though, I do think you came kinda close to making a valid point there, though. (I try to be generous with your type). 

 

I at least get the impression that the Dems were filibustering the spending bill. Since they keep saying it takes 60 to pass, and passing bills doesn't take 60 votes, overcoming a filibuster does. 

 

Now, IMO, if the Dems were filibustering the bill, and if they were doing it because it contained funding for the wall?  Then I don't think they "own the shutdown", but I do think they were abusing their power. 

 

Up till a few days ago, the GOP had the majority of both houses of Congress. And the wall is a pretty small part of the federal budget. The rule of "elections have consequences" says to me that they should have been allowed to pass their funding, if they have 51 votes. 

 

If I'm a Dem senator, and the Dems are filibustering funding for the wall, my position would be that I won't vote to fund the wall, but I would vote to end the filibuster. I'll vote for cloture. 

 

(And then I'll sit back and watch if the R's are willing to vote unanimously to fund a wall, knowing that they can't just vote to fund it, knowing that somebody else will block it). 

 

If 51 senators want to own a wall, let them sign their names on it, and pass it. 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

 

Sorry. This is dumb. Trump (and many other presidents) had no choice but to shut down the boarder wall if he wanted any leverage to get what he wants in a bill. This time is no worse than any other time it has been done.

 

Both sides are responsible for the shutdown. The shutdown will only end when one side feels like what they believe in isn’t worth the political price of shutting down the government. I think the dems probably win this one because trump is not popular. On the other hand his 34 percent is really committed and he’s got bothing to loose. So maybe enough republican senators will have to side with the dems over the president to force an override...

 

Right or wrong trump has zero leverage over the democrats except for the government shutdown. If he doesn’t link the two he gets nothing for his border wall. Saying he should keep the two issues separate is saying he should give up his only source of leverage. 

He had two years in a more favorable situation to get his funding. He failed to generate enough public backing, largely because he refuses to reach out to anyone beyond his minority base. This shutdown is purely political. Trump was an idiot for saying it would be on him and being so absolutely transparent in his motivation, which is to fulfill a campaign promise that was always a false promise. Democrats have zero reason to not let things get worse and see him 1)take the blame from most people and 2) be exposed as a charlatan.

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18 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

 

Sorry. This is dumb. Trump (and many other presidents) had no choice but to shut down the boarder wall if he wanted any leverage to get what he wants in a bill. This time is no worse than any other time it has been done. 

 

Both sides are responsible for the shutdown. The shutdown will only end when one side feels like what they believe in isn’t worth the political price of shutting down the government. I think the dems probably win this one because trump is not popular. On the other hand his 34 percent is really committed and he’s got bothing to loose. So maybe enough republican senators will have to side with the dems over the president to force an override... 

  

Right or wrong trump has zero leverage over the democrats except for the government shutdown. If he doesn’t link the two he gets nothing for his border wall. Saying he should keep the two issues separate is saying he should give up his only source of leverage.  

 

Sorry.  This is dumb.  Blaming Democrats for Trump's decision to hold the government hostage to try and get and get money for a culture war vanity project boondoggle is absurd.  So is ignoring the fact that Trump had a united government for two years.  So is ignoring the fact that Trump had a deal with funding for border security measures that might have actually been effective that would have passed weeks ago and he turned it down because he's a moron and wants his little monument to white supremacy to get built.

 

Or he turned it down because his chief purpose with the shutdown is to distract from the deluge of bad news coming from the Mueller investigation.

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