kleese

The Jay Gruden Curve (if there isn’t one, there should be)

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This may not warrant it’s own thread and if not feel free to merge/close, but it’s something I’ve thought about and haven’t seen mentioned. 

 

I like Jay. I want him back. I knew there is lots of discussion on this so I won’t get into all the ins and outs of it here, but I do think it’s appropriate to point something out. 

 

At this point I think there is essentially unnamious agreement that the Redskins are poorly managed at the top (and that is likely putting it kindly). I think we’d all agree that ownership and top level FO people have not provided a great foundation or work environment for the past 20 years. 

 

So I find it a little hypocritical that so much falls back on Jay. 

 

For me, winning 7/8 games per year in Washington is the equivalent to winning about 10 games per year most anywhere else. Every other coach we’ve had has bottomed out by their fourth or fifth year (some earlier than that). Jay is managing to keep things afloat. And for the second year in a row he’s doing it with a MASH unit on offense. 

 

So we all agree that his bosses above him aren’t good and that the atmosphere is not good. And we all know is top two QBs broke their legs and that he’s starting guards who should probably be working at the mall right now. And it hasn’t been pretty. Yet, they are competitive and still alive. And today we saw that they played very hard despite a week of unrest and shenanigans off the field. 

 

I think Jay is flawed. There are plenty of things about the way he coaches I do not like. And I do get the notion that even if you think he is OK that once you are convinced he has a ceiling that you may be ready to move on. I get that. 

 

But for me, I think the curve is real. I don’t think 8-8 here should be viewed the same as everywhere else. For my money I think he’s earned the right to stay— he’s something good about the Redskins and the team is willing to fight for him and as a fan, I’m willing to root for him. He’s been stand up and doesn’t throw people under the bus despite lots of garbage swirling around him. And maybe if he can ever catch a break with injuries on offense he can turn that 8-8 season into a 10-6 season. And hell, 10-6 here is like 12-4 everywhere else. I am all for giving Bruce the boot. But I want Jay to stay. 

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Oh no, don’t fall for it. He is a decent enough coach but he does not seem like a guy who can put you over the top. 

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3 minutes ago, LetThePointsSoar said:

Maybe. 

 

But if he stays, for Christ's sake hire both a competent play caller and someone to fix the boneheaded clock management woes. 

 

The team needs some tough hardass assistant coaches and someone else to call plays. The play calling has been the other team’s 12th man. We need to commit to the run and be willing to run three times and punt. 

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26 minutes ago, LetThePointsSoar said:

Maybe. 

 

But if he stays, for Christ's sake hire both a competent play caller and someone to fix the boneheaded clock management woes. 

 

I would agree about turning over play calling. O’Connell seems to be a guy people think is really sharp. Might be good for Jay to make him the official OC with play calling duties. If he comes back it will be his sixth year which is like a twelfth year anywhere else... It would be a natural time for Jay to assume more of a figurehead role. 

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I don't think he's terrible, but I think this franchise is in need of a total nuking from top to bottom which means getting rid of the coach too. Is it ALL his fault? No, but he has his flaw as a coach which will hold us back in the future if we keep him.

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I agree that this season especially Jay has been dealt a bad hand, especially with both starting and backup QBs breaking their legs.  But that game at Philly where we were down two scores with a little over 3 minutes left......and Jay threw in the towel. That REALLY bothered me. Kind of like the San Diego game last season. 

 

I just think its time to cleanse this entire organization. 

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Dude no, just no. We were 0-14 since 2017 before today’s game when trailing at halftime. He is an absolutely abysmal in game coach and allows players to talk **** about the fanbase. Absolutely not.

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@kleese Obviously we share different views on how to digest the Redskins, but I agree with you 100% here.  I’m not in love with Jay nor am I of the belief that he’s the type of coach capable of taking this team to the next level.  But that has less to do with him and more to do with who he works for.  I don’t expect us to ever have the ability to hire a head coach who is great the day he walks through the door and I’m certain a good coach won’t flourish here and become great. 

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46 minutes ago, kleese said:

I am all for giving Bruce the boot. But I want Jay to stay. 

 

If Bruce stays, I'm guessing Jay stays. Even if Bruce leaves, probably a good chance that Jay stays, but it don't matter to me either way as long as Bruce is gone.

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I see a lot of the cleanse the organization type comments and that really backs up the OP point.

 

If you blow it all up then sure, we can get the shiny new Head Coach and believe that this time really will be different but in truth the organizational cleanse is never going to come, at least not in most of our lifetimes.  The cleanse we crave is not real unless it involves Dan and Bruce and whilst Bruce may one day use up all of his nine lives there is no way Dan Snyder, still a relatively young owner, is going anywhere.

 

For as long as Dan owns this team we are probably seeing the ceiling of what can be achieved right now.  No new coach will save us and frankly many so called better coaches than Jay have achieved far less.  Jay's unique gift is the ability to somehow survive and win a decent number of games despite the endless drama and terrible decision making going on around him and so yes there is a special Jay curve.

 

The old adage is you don't fire someone unless you know you can hire somebody better for the job.  In DC, I really don't see anyone better than Jay for the unique challenges of dealing with Danny boy and the Harvest Fest King.  

Edited by WelshSkinsFan
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How would this be for a Jay Gruden curve... we win out, run the table, get to the SUper Bowl. (Win or Lose, Jay gets an extension)......

 

Now that would be a curve many here would not expect.

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So this is why I started the “evaluating Jay Gruden 2018” thread.  I laid out 8 or so items that he as a coach controls.

 

Here’s rhe short version:  Hea a terrible play caller, hires mediocre coaches who he’s familiar with, and the team will only perform exactly to the level of its talent because he never is able to steel a win based on taking advantage of other teams matchups.

 

In fact, I’m starting to believe that Jay is making the roster look worse than it is by his coaching, play calling and hiring of coaching staffs.

 

The gutless, incompetent and ridiculous handling of the end of the first half today shows that he’s completely overmatched when it comes to game management.  He got away with it because they were playing just about the worst team in the NFL.  It’s possinl that against the other 30 teams they lose becaus of those errors.

 

And I don’t want to hear about injuries until we don’t at least attempt to adapt scheme and play calling to the players we have.  It’s been 5 years and it hasn’t happened yet.

 

Hes just a bad coach.  Is Bruce also bad?  Yes. 

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I have a feeling if anything Jay & Bruce are tied together.  If one goes, they both go, but unless Snyder is ready to get rid of them both, they will be back.

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There is nothing that Gruden has done that lends itself to a successful modern offense.  His only success was when Sean McVay was here working with Cousins.

 

A new GM should hire his preferred coach.

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@Voice_of_Reason but if we have a bad owner, bad GM, AND a bad coach why aren’t we getting bad results? We are clearly getting average/middling results. What is SO great that it is allowing for results that don’t jive with how bad everyone else is? 

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2 minutes ago, kleese said:

@Voice_of_Reason but if we have a bad owner, bad GM, AND a bad coach why aren’t we getting bad results? We are clearly getting average/middling results. What is SO great that it is allowing for results that don’t jive with how bad everyone else is? 

The roster isn’t bad.  It’s average-ish.  Which is the results we’ve been having. A little bit below average.  

 

The coaches are able to get exactly the level of talent that’s on the roster, maybe even less at times. 

 

Lets take the last 2 years:

 

Kirk and Alex are both top 15 QBs.  Trent, Rouille/Long Moses and Scherff are a solid if not spectacular foundation to the OL.

 

Reed/Crowder/CT/VD might not be the most scary weapons out there but if used correctly, they can be dangerous.  I ask you, why didn’t Reed get targets early this season when he was healthy?  Bad scheme.

 

On defense, they have Allen, Payne, Kerrigan, Norman, Swearinger, Dunny. ILB and DB are a problem.  

 

But the roster isn’t awful.  It’s ok. 

 

When we had Kirk, Garçon, Djax, the ofdense was better.  That 2016 team with a good coach wins 11 games minimum.  With a top flight coach it’s a super bowl contending team.  Note: a good coach doesn’t sabotage his team by hiring Joe Barry. Hell, every coach not Jay Gruden was smarter than that for years.  

 

Gruden is a bad coach with an average roster and they have slightly under average results

 

 

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Fair enough @Voice_of_Reason but then by definition you’d say Bruce is pretty darn good at building a roster no (or at least overseeing a process of building a roster)? Meaning he built a team that you said yourself could have been a Super Bowl with a great coach or an 11 win team with a good one. 

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I respect your v ki ew and the point of this thread, but I simply can't take it seriously. Gruden is a good guy (based on his sincerity and his honesty, imo). However, it's quite clear (even to the most novice football observer) that he is simply not a head coach in this league.

I do not want him back in any capacity next season. I've seen enough of the same old mistakes over the course of the last five years that I feel confident that I can make the assumption that he has cemented the fact he cannot get the job done with this team.

I grew up watching this team beating the brakes off teams and standing at the forefront of the NFC East. I raised my son to root for this team as I have for 35+ years.

Now? I just spend my time apologizing to him for watching this ****show. To me, this is disgusting and a true slap in the face to the fans that were around during the glory days (let alone the younger generation of fans).

Gruden, his merry band of misfits, and more importantly, that bumbling idiot known as Bruce Allen need to be shown the door as soon as the season is over.

You can polish a turd (defeating the jags), but at the end of the day it's still a turd.

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Been a loooong time since I've posted here, but this season's mess was enough to bring me back after a long absence. The ONLY way I would agree in bringing Jay back is under the argument that we would be unable to hire a better coach. I don't necessarily believe that, but that's the only argument to me that can reasonably be argued.  I don't have the particulars to back them up (which is admittedly a lazy way to support your point), but everyone knows these are facts.  We are horrible on primetime games, we seem horrible coming out of bye weeks, we seem horrible any time we have extra time to prepare, we are horrible coming out of halftime when you have time to adjust, we are horrible at scoring on drives coming out of halftime, horrible scoring in the third quarter, horrible with penalties, and horrible at clock management.  That's all coaching. So either Gruden is horrible himself at these things or he's assembled a staff that is horrible at these things.  Regardless, I never hear anyone say that Gruden outcoached the guy on the other sideline or that the other team has to step up their game because Gruden and his staff are such wizards at coaching, scheming, and adapting on the fly.

 

The team is a reflection of their coach. No fire. The past few years when we had a chance to go into the playoffs with win and you're in games...we played flat and uninspired.  Just like Jay looks on the sideline. He constantly looks and seems befuddled.

 

He's 35-42. A good coach can get the absolute most he can from the talent he has. I can't believe we got the best out of the talent that is/has been here especially with the talent on offense a couple years ago when DJax was still here. An Old Bum Phillips quote... "He can take his'n and beat your'n and take your'n and beat his'n". Jay is not that guy...he loses both games.

 

Jay is not the entire problem, but he sure isn't part of the solution.  We need an overhaul from top to bottom. Only a complete change gives any chance at changing the culture and giving the fans any hope for excitement in the foreseeable future.

 

HTTR

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1 hour ago, kleese said:

@Voice_of_Reason but if we have a bad owner, bad GM, AND a bad coach why aren’t we getting bad results? We are clearly getting average/middling results. What is SO great that it is allowing for results that don’t jive with how bad everyone else is? 

We are getting bad results! Look at our IR's the last 2 years and Reed is a walking career injury  Anything less than a wildcard gets the same result as being winless, the exception being a lower draft pick order for more losses.  I am happy we finally won today but we just dropped down further in the draft order for next year.  No we are still alive, but realistically we need a miracle with this terminally injured OL and  some of its players that couldn't make any pro team roster.  We definitely need high draft picks for instant starters to improve. But again, its the same old story with this FO and Coach. The difference this year is that the fans are really disappearing for all the years of the same old bull/hype and its embarrassing what our franchise has become on a consistent basis.  Clean house.   FO should have promoted McVay last year and Kirk was worth the 20 mil he first wanted years ago and we could have kept Fuller and used the money to build. No wonder Scott started drinking again...he was even better drunk than a sober Allen. Gruden is not ever going to be a top 10 coach, much less with Allen at the helm.  Look at the transactions this week alone, waive Bibbs?  Let Simmie Cobb go to the Saints and then try to save him like Kirk....too little too late again. Recognize where we stand right now and we could probably use these players next year, quality young players at a low price.  Doctson has been a waste and Harris is a better receiver in my book, Cobbs produced more in pre-season that Doctson ever did and for a lot less money that could be used elsewhere for solid durable O-linemen, I could go on and on but it's useless . The good is that we have a decent D-line and maybe a star RB hopefully, but that's about it.  We are weak or average in all other areas.  Trent is older and getting injury prone and slower.

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