Starting QB 2019???

[Skinsinparadise]

New PFF article on Rosen.  I am ok with trading for Rosen but I think there are multiple red flags about the dude where I'll stay on record that i think he has a high bust potential.  boom-bust type of trade IMO.  

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-josh-rosen-trade-what-any-suiting-team-should-expect

Either the Cardinals or Rosen’s new team should take stock in the fact that passer rating in and of itself but especially under pressure is a terrible statistic to look at when looking at year-to-year production, and he should produce numbers in an upward trend, or at least closer to the mean next season. But his abilities under pressure last season certainly hurt his value as his one-year sample size leaves little to the imagination.

A team willing to give up a rumored second-round draft selection may have the hope of being able to turn around Rosen and his career, hoping that the league’s second-lowest-graded quarterback from a clean pocket can benefit from a change of scenery. Unfortunately, we’ve seen in the past that our grades from a clean pocket are one of the most consistent metrics on a year-to-year basis in terms of future success, or in this case, failure.

In Rosen and his potential new team’s sake, here’s hoping he can buck that trend.

[HigSkin]

Doug Gottlieb was on Cowherd's show and said something about listen to his show coming up.  He said the Skin's and Miami weren't in the QB market anymore and that San Diego and Giants would be the biggest suitors.  It kind of sounded way off base to me and I don't know whether he knows what he's talking about but I don't get his show and can't listen to it.

[RWJ]

23 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

Doug Gottlieb was on Cowherd's show and said something about listen to his show coming up.  He said the Skin's and Miami weren't in the QB market anymore and that San Diego and Giants would be the biggest suitors.  It kind of sounded way off base to me and I don't know whether he knows what he's talking about but I don't get his show and can't listen to it.

He's got to be wrong.  Both our QBs are on 1 year deals at this time.  I would be shocked if we didn't draft a QB in the 1st 3 rounds or trade for Rosen.

[WelshSkinsFan]

I think he may be right in the sense that Washington and Miami are out on taking a guy in the 1st round.  I get the feeling Jay is a little bit like his brother and is more comfortable with veteran guys and honestly despite all the buzz around Murray this is still a pretty poor QB class.  I look at Haskins, Lock and Jones and I just remember Locker, Gabbert and Ponder going 8, 10 and 12 a few years back purely because teams talked themselves into needing a QB when they all had red flags and had no business going above the 3rd round.

 

I think we might be in on Rosen if that is an option but I feel it is more likely we use a mid round pick and hope they develop.  The team is in win now mode and will want to add an impact player in the 1st that sells that narrative so I expect a WR or TE is the most probable selection. 

[Skin'emAlive]

I dunno if we are or ever were in a win-now mode. We were in a be-competitive and don’t lose it mode, surely. However with Alex Smith going down, that changes a few things. We have Case because there is no way you go into the season with McCoy as the starter, and nothing else behind him. Players learn bad habits behind bad players. Even if you dont think the outlook is good, having a quality signal caller is beneficial to any rookie rb/wr that will take the field next year. And we will most definitely have both, 

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Are you saying Case and Colt are good players? 

[Skin'emAlive]

18 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Are you saying Case and Colt are good players? 

 

Colt: No

Case: he can run the offense adequately. At least to the point that our rookies won’t get bad habits. He’s probably in that Tannehill tier...

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, WelshSkinsFan said:

I think he may be right in the sense that Washington and Miami are out on taking a guy in the 1st round.  I get the feeling Jay is a little bit like his brother and is more comfortable with veteran guys and honestly despite all the buzz around Murray this is still a pretty poor QB class.  I look at Haskins, Lock and Jones and I just remember Locker, Gabbert and Ponder going 8, 10 and 12 a few years back purely because teams talked themselves into needing a QB when they all had red flags and had no business going above the 3rd round.

 

I think we might be in on Rosen if that is an option but I feel it is more likely we use a mid round pick and hope they develop.  The team is in win now mode and will want to add an impact player in the 1st that sells that narrative so I expect a WR or TE is the most probable selection. 

 

Personally, I think that if Rosen were coming out this year he'd easily be the #2 QB on everyone's board. I'd rather spend a 2nd rounder on Rosen than a #15 overall on Lock. If it were between a 2nd for Rosen and taking Haskins at 15 it would be tougher though I don't think he'll be there at 15 so it's likely a moot point. I think the Giants will either take Haskins or trade for Rosen. Though hasn't it been posted here recently that the Skins apparently aren't all that into Haskins? 

[Skinsinparadise]

1. Teams are still in the dark on the availability of Cardinals QB Josh Rosen. But I’m told that’s not stopping them from getting their ducks in a row, with guys who’ve worked with Rosen over the last few years fielding phone calls and having discussions with intrigued teams gathering background. If you want to see the real-life application of the perception that Kyler Murray is Arizona-bound, there you have it.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/03/18/josh-rosen-trade-cardinals-kyler-murray-draft-jabrill-peppers-giants-landon-collins-adrian-peterson?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=themmqb&utm_source=twitter.com

[RWJ]

16 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

1. Teams are still in the dark on the availability of Cardinals QB Josh Rosen. But I’m told that’s not stopping them from getting their ducks in a row, with guys who’ve worked with Rosen over the last few years fielding phone calls and having discussions with intrigued teams gathering background. If you want to see the real-life application of the perception that Kyler Murray is Arizona-bound, there you have it.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/03/18/josh-rosen-trade-cardinals-kyler-murray-draft-jabrill-peppers-giants-landon-collins-adrian-peterson?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=themmqb&utm_source=twitter.com

I hope this is resolved sooner rather than later but we will all have to probably wait until draft day to see its conclusion.  

[actorguy1]

I'm starting to agree that Jay wants a veteran QB if this is playoffs or bust season. A first round QB would only make things more complicated.

[skinny21]

14 hours ago, actorguy1 said:

I'm starting to agree that Jay wants a veteran QB if this is playoffs or bust season. A first round QB would only make things more complicated.

I’m mostly in agreement here.  Haskins, Lock and Jones just don’t really move the needle for the team next year, which (understandably, from the FO’s perspective) seems to be the primary driver.  However, I think Murray may be seen as a sort of force multiplier.  A guy that can make up for some issues with the oline, run game, or receivers.  Don’t see Murray getting past Arizona, but if he does, I could see the ‘Skins trying to move up.  Probably a crazy move for them if it played out that way, but I think it’s a shoot for the moon move that would spark a lot of interest in the team - both nationally and with the fan base. 

[WelshSkinsFan]

If Arizona doesn't take Murray I think the Raiders are the next team to watch.  I just don't see us having the ammunition to get above Oakland/Vegas but if Mike Mayock turns his card in for an Edge Rusher then I would expect the scramble to begin.  I personally hope Arizona takes him and we sit out the top tier of QBs.  If Lock or Haskins is there at 15 I would honestly see if we can trade back and add another day 2 pick at least.

[Est.1974]

1 hour ago, WelshSkinsFan said:

If Arizona doesn't take Murray I think the Raiders are the next team to watch.  I just don't see us having the ammunition to get above Oakland/Vegas but if Mike Mayock turns his card in for an Edge Rusher then I would expect the scramble to begin.  I personally hope Arizona takes him and we sit out the top tier of QBs.  If Lock or Haskins is there at 15 I would honestly see if we can trade back and add another day 2 pick at least.

 

Agree on the Raiders. Mayock was also very hot on Rosen. I could see that trade happening.

[MartinC]

21 hours ago, actorguy1 said:

I'm starting to agree that Jay wants a veteran QB if this is playoffs or bust season. A first round QB would only make things more complicated.

 

If the veterans are Colt and Keenum I would say bust is more likely than playoffs.

[HigSkin]

 

So I'd be all over Lock at #15 and Haskins not so much and then a trade for Rosen if we can keep our #1.  As mentioned in the draft thread, a lot of evaluators don't this years QB's better fit your system because they don't see abilities to "mold" guys to your systems.

[Skinsinparadise]

I am trying to dig Rosen, I've already watched a bunch of games but decided to watch one more.  So am watching his Memphis game.  And I liked most of what I saw.  Quick release.  Nimble feet, live arm, some nice throws.  But heck even in that one his turnovers spoiled it some for me.  I post them here.  One might be a miscommunication with a receiver -- so don't know.  The other where he throws the ball on a diagonal where he has to turn his body.  That throw to me is so him.  And not in a good way.  

 

So my concern is can Josh kill the inner Rex Grossman in him.  and that includes all his fumbling.  10 fumbles last year when he didn't even start the whole season -- he averaged about a fumble a game.  You can't win in the NFL giving up 2-3 turnovers a game.  And like I said you can see that in UCLA, too.  I just read a 2018 college report on Josh and it also talked about him trusting his arm too much and making dangerous throws.  So it looks like I am not on an island about it. 

 

Can that be fixed?  Hopefully, yes.  And if so he's a good player.  If it can't be fixed, I think the dude will be a bust.  So to me Rosen is a high variance boom or bust player.  But if you aren't paying a first rounder for him -- then why not go get a boom or bust dude because if you strike gold its a great find and if you don't -- the opportunity cost wasn't that high.   

 

I think the one quality of his that isn't played up enough are his quick feet.  He's not a mobile QB but he isn't a statue back there either, he can move around and do it well.    But his decision making to me can be really bad and if its coupled as some say with poor study habits -- that worries me. 

 

 

[OVCChairman]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am trying to dig Rosen, I've already watched a bunch of games but decided to watch one more.  So am watching his Memphis game.  And I liked most of what I saw.  Quick release.  Nimble feet, live arm, some nice throws.  But heck even in that one his turnovers spoiled it some for me.  I post them here.  One might be a miscommunication with a receiver -- so don't know.  The other where he throws the ball on a diagonal where he has to turn his body.  That throw to me is so him.  And not in a good way.  

 

So my concern is can Josh kill the inner Rex Grossman in him.  and that includes all his fumbling.  10 fumbles last year when he didn't even start the whole season -- he averaged about a fumble a game.  You can't win in the NFL giving up 2-3 turnovers a game.  And like I said you can see that in UCLA, too.  I just read a 2018 college report on Josh and it also talked about him trusting his arm too much and making dangerous throws.  So it looks like I am not on an island about it. 

 

Can that be fixed?  Hopefully, yes.  And if so he's a good player.  If it can't be fixed, I think the dude will be a bust.  So to me Rosen is a high variance boom or bust player.  But if you aren't paying a first rounder for him -- then why not go get a boom or bust dude because if you strike gold its a great find and if you don't -- the opportunity cost wasn't that high.   

 

I think the one quality of his that isn't played up enough are his quick feet.  He's not a mobile QB but he isn't a statue back there either, he can move around and do it well.    But his decision making to me can be really bad and if its coupled as some say with poor study habits -- that worries me. 

 

 

I think this is why his stock has dropped from top of the 1st round, to potentially only being worth a 3rd round pick. 

 

Watching that video, the first INT looks like an option route.  The WR looks to settle down for a second, then turn it on and look back.  My assumption is Rosen thought he was going to run an in or an out and not do the double move... just my amateur eyeballs..  That said, it's still a failed play.  He had an LB in his face and he appeared to panic.   The other question is WHO the heck is no. 32 for UCLA and does he want to play ILB? 

 

The 2nd one was terrible with an open checkdown staring him in the face.  

[RWJ]

2 hours ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

I think this is why his stock has dropped from top of the 1st round, to potentially only being worth a 3rd round pick. 

 

Watching that video, the first INT looks like an option route.  The WR looks to settle down for a second, then turn it on and look back.  My assumption is Rosen thought he was going to run an in or an out and not do the double move... just my amateur eyeballs..  That said, it's still a failed play.  He had an LB in his face and he appeared to panic.   The other question is WHO the heck is no. 32 for UCLA and does he want to play ILB? 

 

The 2nd one was terrible with an open checkdown staring him in the face.  

Rosen's had like 4 or 5 different OC in the last 5 or 6 years.  Something like that.  IF he can get with Gruden for a few year and learn his system I think he has the intangibles to do well.  

[OVCChairman]

7 minutes ago, RWJ said:

Rosen's had like 4 or 5 different OC in the last 5 or 6 years.  Something like that.  IF he can get with Gruden for a few year and learn his system I think he has the intangibles to do well.  

 

 

I agree.  I like the move. 

 

I don't think it would be Jay, but more Kevin O'Connell, because I don't think Jay makes it beyond this coming season.... which would mean he'd be adding another OC to his resume.  Now if that OC ends up getting promoted to HC, it could help him going into 2020.  

 

I'm not saying I don't want to make the move, but there are things on tape that have probably pushed people away from using a first round pick on him... that and also losing out on the 5th year option that you get on a 1st round player.   I'd actually prefer we make this move, and do it prior to the draft.  It opens the door for our draft strategy.  If we get Rosen, we don't take a QB at 15.  We can then get a game changer, or trade back and add additional pieces.  Getting Rosen for a 3rd is so much bigger than just getting a QB.  It's a low cost contract for a high ceiling type player.  He may be boom or bust, but it changes how we can go about the rest of the team.  Acquiring him for a 2nd, or 3rd, round pick gives us QB who has the talent to be really good, while also keeping our no. 1 pick, which may be more valuable than the player himself. 

[mistertim]

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am trying to dig Rosen, I've already watched a bunch of games but decided to watch one more.  So am watching his Memphis game.  And I liked most of what I saw.  Quick release.  Nimble feet, live arm, some nice throws.  But heck even in that one his turnovers spoiled it some for me.  I post them here.  One might be a miscommunication with a receiver -- so don't know.  The other where he throws the ball on a diagonal where he has to turn his body.  That throw to me is so him.  And not in a good way.  

 

So my concern is can Josh kill the inner Rex Grossman in him.  and that includes all his fumbling.  10 fumbles last year when he didn't even start the whole season -- he averaged about a fumble a game.  You can't win in the NFL giving up 2-3 turnovers a game.  And like I said you can see that in UCLA, too.  I just read a 2018 college report on Josh and it also talked about him trusting his arm too much and making dangerous throws.  So it looks like I am not on an island about it. 

 

Can that be fixed?  Hopefully, yes.  And if so he's a good player.  If it can't be fixed, I think the dude will be a bust.  So to me Rosen is a high variance boom or bust player.  But if you aren't paying a first rounder for him -- then why not go get a boom or bust dude because if you strike gold its a great find and if you don't -- the opportunity cost wasn't that high.   

 

I think the one quality of his that isn't played up enough are his quick feet.  He's not a mobile QB but he isn't a statue back there either, he can move around and do it well.    But his decision making to me can be really bad and if its coupled as some say with poor study habits -- that worries me. 

 

His turnovers worry me as well, though one thing to note is that with that 10 fumbles you have to take into account that he was sacked 45 times. That doesn't excuse the fumbles but IMO it makes the large number of them a bit more understandable.

 

As far as the clips you posted, I agree with @OVCChairmanon the first one as I noticed the same thing. It looked like either an option route or they were simply on different plays/pages...the WR seemed to be running a comeback or curl at first but it ended up being a sort of stop and go...and Rosen threw to the spot where he'd be if it were a comeback/curl route. No way to know for sure but I'd probably chalk that up to a miscommunication. That being said, he still probably shouldn't have thrown it.

 

The second was just straight up stupid and trying to do too much. I went back and found the cutup of that game...that INT happened in the middle of the 3rd quarter on a 3rd and 19 while UCLA was down by 3. There was absolutely no reason for him to force that with so much time left in the game; it wasn't even close to a 1st down anyway. He should have run for 4-5 yards or thrown it away and lived to play another series. 

 

Both of those INTs were really poor situational awareness on a larger level. The first was a miscommunication but it was still a risky throw in general and a super risky throw in that situation. They were down by 3 with about 6 minutes left in the 4th, 19 yard line LOS on a 3rd and 10. STUPID throw in that situation...take the FG and tie it up.

 

I do like Rosen but I definitely agree that he needs to tame his inner Rex and be more astute about the best thing to do given the game situation. Gruden would KILL him on that. If he can learn to reign in those instincts to try and make plays all the time IMO he could be a great NFL QB as he does do other things quite well. 

[Andre The Giant]

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/2019-nfl-draft-could-redskins-find-trade-partner-in-jets-in-an-attempt-to-land-dwayne-haskins/

[Fat Stupid Loser]

52 minutes ago, RWJ said:

Rosen's had like 4 or 5 different OC in the last 5 or 6 years.  Something like that.  IF he can get with Gruden for a few year and learn his system I think he has the intangibles to do well.  

I never got the Rosen hype. I watched a few of his college games and he looked awful.  The guy is the number one QB prospect and number one pick in the NFL draft and couldn't win in the Pac12?  You can go 500 in the Pac12 by just showing up.  If a guy that's supposed to be that good can't carry his college team, how good can he be?  I understand one guy is not a team, but college is a little different. Sure fire 1st round QBs dominate in college.  Those that don't are generally busts. Some that do bust too obviously.

[Skinsinparadise]

29 minutes ago, Andre The Giant said:

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/2019-nfl-draft-could-redskins-find-trade-partner-in-jets-in-an-attempt-to-land-dwayne-haskins/

If Snyder falls in love with Haskins through this process – and, I'd point out that Haskins played prep football in Snyder's backyard and that his mentor, Shawn Springs, is a former Redskins cornerback whom Snyder thinks very highly of – then he will do whatever he thinks has to do to get him. History has shown us as much, and I hear Washington is very much intrigued by the strapping pocket passer, and you just know that Snyder would take some joy in leap-frogging the NFC East rival Giants in the process.

And, I will reiterate, this is not a situation where the Jets are inclined to believe the best deal has to come right before the draft. And patience is not exactly a hallmark of the Bruce Allen reign as head of Washington's football operations (losing, however, would be). So keep an eye on this one.

Outside of the Giants and Skins, it's hard to figure anyone else makes the jump. Some execs I've chatted with believe John Elway may be open to moving up for Haskins – his pact with Joe Flacco is on a year-to-year basis at this point in the contract – though, personally, I tend to think he does not go that direction. Miami seems to be targeting the 2020 draft to solve its quarterback riddle – at the very least, giving away a bunch of picks to leap up from 13th overall would shock rival GMs at this point – and Jacksonville is paying Nick Foles like he is on the franchise tag the next two years, so grabbing a QB in the top-10 would run counter to their win-now ethos (even if winning now seems like an impossibility to their counterparts).

It's been a while since Snyder has done something splashy, and his fanbase has become among the more beaten-down and hopeless in the league (for good reason), and getting a buy-in from them wont be easy. Moving up for a potential franchise QB who threw 50 TDs a year ago at Ohio State just might help with that.

 

 

 

My take here.  Jay and Bruce at Ohio State that clearly might mean something.  Maybe they do like Haskins.  Cooley and Sheehan won't be happy campers if so. 😀

 

The issue though is if they trade up to #3, they'd need to do it IMO on draft day because what would stop the NY Giants to then just trade up to #2 let alone Kyle I bet would get a kick out of showing up Dan. 

 

I see some trashing on twitter as to JLC for this rumor.  But I'll say two things in his defense.  Finlay has been saying for weeks they might trade up.  Doug who I don't think has a deceitful bone in his body has switched from weeks ago mocking the idea of trading up to doing a 180 and flat out saying trading up is on the table.

[mistertim]

The top QBs in this class are all boom or bust IMO.

 

I know that there is a ton to love about Murray but there are some facts that still remain: he only had 1 year of productivity/tape, he played in the Big 12, he played in a QB friendly Air Raid system, he had some excellent receivers, and at the end of the day he's still tiny (no way in hell is 207 his true playing weight). Not to mention that nobody knows for sure how serious he is about football vs baseball in his heart. 

 

Haskins also has some great tools and appears to be polished but he also only had 1 year of production, I think his numbers got inflated somewhat by having lots of YAC from guys, he has great accuracy in short and intermediate routes but his deep accuracy is questionable, and his footwork is mediocre at best IMO. 

 

Lock has more tape and production than Murray and Haskins but his accuracy falls off of a cliff when he's pressured. Much of the love he gets comes not from his stats or where he ranks in certain categories, but his physical tools...mostly his arm talent. Another thing about Lock is that he had a REALLY good OL that gave him tons of time to throw.