Starting QB 2019???

[mistertim]

12 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Not that I agree with this ranking but interesting how PFF has the two last QB groups

 

 

 

 

So basically a group of 10 first round picks (or highly likely 1st rounders). Except the #3 rated guy on the list behind two guys who are (or will be in Murray's case) #1 overall picks.

 

He's, like, a 3rd rounder. Somehow. Because reasons.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that many NFL teams have Grier rated much higher than most media scouts and analysts (there's actually been some reporting that that's the case).

 

It seems like people can't really decide whether these numbers or rankings are meaningful or not. You'll see people pumping up a certain QB (many times Murray) by pointing to these numbers but then the same person may turn around and dismiss the same number and ranking system for the guy who is right behind him (Grier) by throwing out various qualitative/subjective opinions on his play. Or even talking about the system he plays in, without noting that Murray plays in almost the exact same system. 

 

It's just weird to me.

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

It's just weird to me.

 

Grier to me is one of the weirder assessments at QB.  By just about every metric-study, Grier shows up as anywhere from good to elite.    But then he has some really strong critics.    It's all over the map as to Grier but with incredible variance.  For example the PFF guys think he will be a stud and other draft geeks think the dude's ceiling is to be a backup.    I've watched my share of Grier and I've liked a lot of what I saw but I also see what the critics do as for arm strength and concerns about him holding on to the ball too long, etc.  Personally, I am ok with betting on Grier as long as its not a first rounder  If Jay thinks he can coach him I'd take that ride.    I am not swearing by him but I am also not in the camp that he's a surefire bust. 

[Anselmheifer]

10 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Grier to me is one of the weirder assessments at QB.  By just about every metric-study, Grier shows up as anywhere from good to elite.    But then he has some really strong critics.    It's all over the map as to Grier but with incredible variance.  For example the PFF guys think he will be a stud and other draft geeks think the dude's ceiling is to be a backup.    I've watched my share of Grier and I've liked a lot of what I saw but I also see what the critics do as for arm strength and concerns about him holding on to the ball too long, etc.  Personally, I am ok with betting on Grier as long as its not a first rounder  If Jay thinks he can coach him I'd take that ride.    I am not swearing by him but I am also not in the camp that he's a surefire bust. 

I feel the same way about Lock. I want to love him because of the arm, size, athleticism, and personality, but...I can't make myself do it. He is inaccurate. He struggled against SEC competition and ranked teams, and I think that is a direct result of his accuracy, vision and decision making. Grier, Haskins, and Murray all performed much better against ranked teams. 

[Skinsinparadise]

48 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

I feel the same way about Lock. I want to love him because of the arm, size, athleticism, and personality, but...I can't make myself do it. He is inaccurate. He struggled against SEC competition and ranked teams, and I think that is a direct result of his accuracy, vision and decision making. Grier, Haskins, and Murray all performed much better against ranked teams. 

 

I love Murray.  Haskins its tough to make my mind about. I know I don't love him but trying to figure out whether i like him.  I don't make much about his performance against ranked teams versus Lock considering the killer supporting cast Haskins had.   I've shown a bunch of clips of Parris Campbell for example who is unbelievable taking a shallow 5 yard screen or dig and turning it into some 20 yard explosive play.  Haskins had a lot of YAC help.   Lock didn't have that.  His receivers dropped a ton of balls. 

 

And Lock's teams would fall behind against the stiffer SEC competition because they were an inferior team.   And its not easy playing from behind.  Haskins didn't have that issue.   I can get into more detail about Haskins but i've purposely avoided doing so of late because I've already spent enough energy in debating other QBs where i'd rather not dive into Haskins, too. 

 

 I do like Lock and I'd take him over Haskins.  I've gotten into why I like Lock in previous posts.  In short, his tools intrigue me.  And I am a big fan of arm strength-athleticism-leadership-throw on the move traits as to QBs.   My issue with Lock is consistency.  I don't like QBs who are hot and cold.  Can that be fixed?  I don't know.  Everything being equal, I'd rather not find out.  But if Lock drops to 15 and they took him -- that's not what I'd prefer to do but I won't go ape and get angry about it either.   I've mentioned before just like you did some concerns about Lock versus stiffer competition.  But if its framed in part as Lock versus Haskins, I think its apples to oranges because Ohio State is a big time team who can compete with just about anyone -- not the case with Missouri.  So I grade Lock a little on a curve on that point.  

 

I don't like taking players who are boom-bust fliers in the first half of the first round of the draft.   But I do like taking players like that later in the draft.  

 

 

 

 

[evmiii]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

I don't like taking players who are boom-bust fliers in the first half of the first round of the draft.   But I do like taking players like that later in the draft.  

 

 

 

 

 

Historically, first round QBs are a 50-50 shot.  It ultimately gets down to the evaluation of talent; unfortunately, I don't have a great deal of confidence in the Redskins talent evaluators.  When I look at QBs I think the most important trait I look for is anticipation.  He needs to be smart enough and a strong arm is always helpful, but there have been many strong armed mediocre QBs out there.  I think Murray shows it most, second on my list is still Grier.  Does he rush sometimes, sure; does he make a bad decision now and again, they all do; but when I watch his throws he throws with anticipation of where the receiver is going to be, not where he is.  My biggest concern is sometimes he holds the ball to long trying to make a play, but that can be learned.  Simple little things like watching them throw the deep out at the combine, Grier was the only guy throwing on before the breaks leading the receiver to the sideline (I think because he doesn't have a rocket arm he wasn't trying to WOW anybody.). Definitely not a first rounder, but I'd love to see them pick him up in the second round and let him compete.

[Skinsinparadise]

27 minutes ago, evmiii said:

 

Historically, first round QBs are a 50-50 shot.  It ultimately gets down to the evaluation of talent; unfortunately, I don't have a great deal of confidence in the Redskins talent evaluators.  When I look at QBs I think the most important trait I look for is anticipation.  He needs to be smart enough and a strong arm is always helpful, but there have been many strong armed mediocre QBs out there.  I think Murray shows it most, second on my list is still Grier.  Does he rush sometimes, sure; does he make a bad decision now and again, they all do; but when I watch his throws he throws with anticipation of where the receiver is going to be, not where he is.  My biggest concern is sometimes he holds the ball to long trying to make a play, but that can be learned.  Simple little things like watching them throw the deep out at the combine, Grier was the only guy throwing on before the breaks leading the receiver to the sideline (I think because he doesn't have a rocket arm he wasn't trying to WOW anybody.). Definitely not a first rounder, but I'd love to see them pick him up in the second round and let him compete.

 

IMO Lock throws well with anticipation.  IMO he is a different QB than Rosen but I have concerns about both of their decision making abilities and touch on short passes.  I am not going to go to battle for Lock because i don't feel that strongly about him.  I am not one of the Grier haters on the board but I still would easily take Lock over Grier in the draft.  They are both streaky.  And I've heard multiple draft geeks say of late a number of teams have Lock ahead of Haskins on their draft boards.  I concur with that sentiment. 

 

https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/film-study-drew-lock-anticipatory-throws

Josh Allen was billed as more performance art than scientific as a passer, which was a fair assessment when scouting his college tape. For some reason, Missouri quarterback Drew Lock has been compared to Allen as a prospect, despite the extreme differences between the two signal callers.

One of those major differences is the ability to throw with anticipation. Allen consistently struggled to process things quickly from the pocket, relying on his golden arm to exploit tight windows that he often created by staring down receivers or being late with a throw.

Lock has his issues, but one of his biggest strengths is his ability to throw with anticipation in the vertical passing game. I saw it a couple of times against Tennessee and Arkansas, but the trait was really on display against Auburn last fall.

[HigSkin]

 

[actorguy1]

 

[Anselmheifer]

I'm tempted to post the same Colin Cowherd tweet again, as a bit. Would that be a rule violation?

 

SIP, regarding Lock, I can see why you like his tools, but the starting conversation with every QB has to be accuracy, correct? Lock just isn't that accurate. My understanding is that he didn't even look extremely accurate at his pro-day. Maybe he will turn out. I have less self confidence about projecting QB play than at any other position. But, I wouldn't bet on it. 

[Est.1974]

Is there's any mileage in the Giants being a contender for Wilson, I'm not convinced that is pure bull**** just yet.

[Skin'emAlive]

3 hours ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

Is there's any mileage in the Giants being a contender for Wilson, I'm not convinced that is pure bull**** just yet.

 

You talkin bout Russell Wilson? Future HOF qb who arguably just came off his best season? In his prime? That guy? Not a chance unless it was for Lawrence in 2 years, maybe. 

[bakedtater1]

3 hours ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

Is there's any mileage in the Giants being a contender for Wilson, I'm not convinced that is pure bull**** just yet.

I predicted it a while ago.. I'm standing by it

[TheShredder]

8 hours ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

Is there's any mileage in the Giants being a contender for Wilson, I'm not convinced that is pure bull**** just yet.

There's a lot of moving pieces here.  I see it as more viable where Wilson starts the season without an extension.  The gulls will not want him to walk, nor wish to get into a Cousins scenario.  Wilson seems very content on maximizing his value.  As well, NY seems ready to start another year with Eli.  That trade could play out before the end of the season and would still be possible where Seattle has to apply the tag to Wilson then trade him.  IMO this doesn't happen at the beginning of this year and isn't dead for quiet sometime. 

[Skinsinparadise]

20 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

I'm tempted to post the same Colin Cowherd tweet again, as a bit. Would that be a rule violation?

 

SIP, regarding Lock, I can see why you like his tools, but the starting conversation with every QB has to be accuracy, correct? Lock just isn't that accurate. My understanding is that he didn't even look extremely accurate at his pro-day. Maybe he will turn out. I have less self confidence about projecting QB play than at any other position. But, I wouldn't bet on it. 

 

Maybe.  With Lock though (I wish I can find that tweet I saw it on vacation and couldn't post it then) he had an insane number of drops.  That effects completion percentage.   Also, he likes to throw long and that will also effect completion percentage.   Yet, he had a 63% completion percentage, (8 YPA) and 3:1 TD-INT ratio.  That's actually good.   Some here are talking about Rosen as being an accurate QB.  Rosen was short of Lock's 2018 completion percentage and never had a 3:1 TD to INT ratio.

 

Like Rosen, Lock had a poor supporting cast.  And Lock had stiffer competition than Rosen.  I am not making this a Rosen versus Lock thing but bringing it up because the perception is Rosen is really accurate.  And its not that I disagree but Lock held his own against Rosen metric wise.     I though agree Rosen's UCLA career should be graded on a curve.  But the same point IMO applies to Lock.   And Haskins on the other hand had it really really good as for a supporting cast compared to Rosen or Lock.  I got my doubts for example Haskins would thrive the same way in the UCLA or Missouri offense.

 

I am not living and dying with Lock.  I am on record that I don't want to take him at 15.   But count me among the crowd (according to some NFL reporters which includes a number of NFL FOs) that would take Lock over Haskins.  I'd take him over Rosen, too.   Still, i am far from in love with Lock.  I think he's boom or bust but I do think he holds up more than fine versus Haskins and any young QB we've talked about on this thread sans Murray. 

[Malapropismic Depository]

I predict we trade up in the draft for a QB.

But not in the 1st.

The 2nd.

[Hitman#21]

Grier then would make sense, or if Jones is sliding. 

[Skin'emAlive]

Jones should slide. I am still unsure why he’s even talked about. Is it because he went to a Manning camp once? 

[Skinsinparadise]

Redskins meeting with the Murray this week.  After Dan falls in love over dinner at Morton's -- Bruce gets on the phone saying to Steve Keim we gave up three first rounders and a 2nd to move up 4 spots in 2012 so when we get serious we get really serious -- so how about to move up 15 spots we give five #1's?  We got a deal?  While Dan books his celebration cruise to the Caribbean.

 

 

 

 

 

[bakedtater1]

Oh you silly sip...

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Listened to B. Albright in a podcast today about Rosen.  His points:

 

A. He doesn't think the Cards trade until draft day.

B.  He doesn't think any team has come hard after Rosen, yet.

C.  Cards want to see if they can get a team feeling desperate and up their intended draft offer.

D.  Even the Cards know they are unlikely to get a first for him

E.  A 2nd rounder seems to be the ceiling for him

F.  Giants not that interested, they don't mind him as a flier, for example they'd maybe gamble with their third rounder but nothing higher.  That seems to jive with the Giant beat guys who have talked about this.

G.  He suspects SD might offer something competitive but not a first rounder.

H.  Redskins in the mix, they are interested

 

 

Rereading Jay's quote which is in an article today.  Feels like they won't use a first on a QB.

https://www.richmond.com/sports/redskins/as-college-quarterbacks-cycle-through-redskins-park-here-s-what/article_2b5d5a10-e937-546b-864c-eb037d7d4809.html

"Drew could come compete right now," Gruden said. "But ideally when you have a guy who only played one year (like Haskins), you’d like to have him sit a little bit to get him used to it, not to say he couldn’t play – I’m sure he could come in and compete.

"If you take a guy like Haskins or whoever else, Lock or [West Virginia's Will Grier] or whoever else in this draft at 15, you would expect them to compete.

Gruden was clear that for a first-round pick, he expects immediate production.

 

"There is no developmental process here," he said. "This is not Triple-A baseball, we’re not trying to develop a pitcher here.

"Ryan Kerrigan is not expecting us to come out and say, let’s build for the future. We’ve got to win now. Josh Norman, same way. Landon Collins did not come here to be good in 2034. They came here to be good and compete to win a Super Bowl this year. Whoever that player is, that position of quarterback, there will be high expectations from us. That’s the way it’s going to be."

The coach said his film study of the top 10 quarterbacks in the draft has been extensive, and it builds on work the Redskins scouts have done for the past months.

 

The question now is which direction the Redskins will go. The Cardinals could still shop Rosen, which would be an intriguing option. If it comes down to a draft pick, will the Redskins pull the trigger early, or wait for a quarterback in the second or third round they like just as much.

That's been a winning roster building strategy for teams that can connect on a late-round pick, getting a star quarterback at a fraction of the usual cost.

 

"You cant reach for the quarterback of the future," Gruden said. "If I don’t feel like, or if we don’t feel like as an organization, this guy fits that criteria, then we can’t reach and take him just because he’s a quarterback. Maybe it’s a second- or third rounder that can develop into that guy that’s not as risky as a first rounder, because those first-round picks, you’ve got to hit on those first rounders to be a successful franchise."

 

 

 

[mhd24]

20 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Listened to B. Albright in a podcast today about Rosen.  His points:

 

A. He doesn't think the Cards trade until draft day.

B.  He doesn't think any team has come hard after Rosen, yet.

C.  Cards want to see if they can get a team feeling desperate and up their intended draft offer.

D.  Even the Cards know they are unlikely to get a first for him

E.  A 2nd rounder seems to be the ceiling for him

F.  Giants not that interested, they don't mind him as a flier, for example they'd maybe gamble with their third rounder but nothing higher.  That seems to jive with the Giant beat guys who have talked about this.

G.  He suspects SD might offer something competitive but not a first rounder.

H.  Redskins in the mix, they are interested

 

 

Rereading Jay's quote which is in an article today.  Feels like they won't use a first on a QB.

https://www.richmond.com/sports/redskins/as-college-quarterbacks-cycle-through-redskins-park-here-s-what/article_2b5d5a10-e937-546b-864c-eb037d7d4809.html

"Drew could come compete right now," Gruden said. "But ideally when you have a guy who only played one year (like Haskins), you’d like to have him sit a little bit to get him used to it, not to say he couldn’t play – I’m sure he could come in and compete.

"If you take a guy like Haskins or whoever else, Lock or [West Virginia's Will Grier] or whoever else in this draft at 15, you would expect them to compete.

Gruden was clear that for a first-round pick, he expects immediate production.

 

"There is no developmental process here," he said. "This is not Triple-A baseball, we’re not trying to develop a pitcher here.

"Ryan Kerrigan is not expecting us to come out and say, let’s build for the future. We’ve got to win now. Josh Norman, same way. Landon Collins did not come here to be good in 2034. They came here to be good and compete to win a Super Bowl this year. Whoever that player is, that position of quarterback, there will be high expectations from us. That’s the way it’s going to be."

The coach said his film study of the top 10 quarterbacks in the draft has been extensive, and it builds on work the Redskins scouts have done for the past months.

 

The question now is which direction the Redskins will go. The Cardinals could still shop Rosen, which would be an intriguing option. If it comes down to a draft pick, will the Redskins pull the trigger early, or wait for a quarterback in the second or third round they like just as much.

That's been a winning roster building strategy for teams that can connect on a late-round pick, getting a star quarterback at a fraction of the usual cost.

 

"You cant reach for the quarterback of the future," Gruden said. "If I don’t feel like, or if we don’t feel like as an organization, this guy fits that criteria, then we can’t reach and take him just because he’s a quarterback. Maybe it’s a second- or third rounder that can develop into that guy that’s not as risky as a first rounder, because those first-round picks, you’ve got to hit on those first rounders to be a successful franchise."

 

 

 

 

 

Giants 3rd rounder is #95.  We'd be able to beat that offer with our 3rd rounder (#76)

[redskinss]

1 hour ago, mhd24 said:

 

 

Giants 3rd rounder is #95.  We'd be able to beat that offer with our 3rd rounder (#76)

Why is the giants 3rd round pick lower than ours?

 

Nevermind I just Googled it, forgot about beal.

[JoeJacobyHOForRIOT]

Hey guys, without getting into all the details of what i read , i just want to throw a name out there,  Derek Carr, GO ?

[pcbothwel]

11 minutes ago, JoeJacobyHOForRIOT said:

Hey guys, without getting into all the details of what i read , i just want to throw a name out there,  Derek Carr, GO ?

 

Great fit with Jay. Has a great arm and is very accurate downfield. He is making just under 20M per year for he next 4 years, but with no guarantees if traded. We could convert some of his salary to a signing bonus and we could fit him under our cap (And a Scherff extension)