NBCSports.com: Don't look now but Redskins drafts are starting to produce among the NFL's best by JP Finlay

[slaga]

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/redskins/dont-look-now-redskins-drafts-are-starting-produce-among-nfls-best

 

To me this is the biggest difference between this team and the teams the Redskins have fielded in the past. Although I am not a fan of Dan or Bruce, I really do like the change of direction the front office has taken towards building a roster. Whoever is responsible for that change of direction, you get a big thank you from me. The team is winning in spite of the attrition and I feel strongly that is because of the emphasis on building through the draft as opposed to signing older, more fragile veterans to lucrative contracts that more often than not, do not live up to their contracts. 

 

I know this is common sense, but this is HUGE in the grande scheme of things as far as I am concerned in how this team has lifted themselves from being an afterthought to a middling team, and even possibly a good team, depending on how you view their 6 wins against their 3 losses thus far.

[zCommander]

My first thought was what draft picks did JP make for the Redskins... lol

 

Since you are new here, looks like, please change the title of your thread to: NBCSports.com: Don't look now but Redskins drafts are starting to produce among the NFL's best

 

Hail. 

[HardcoreZorn]

Eh this is basic 101 stuff, not impressive in the least.

[goskins10]

27 minutes ago, slaga said:

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/redskins/dont-look-now-redskins-drafts-are-starting-produce-among-nfls-best

 

To me this is the biggest difference between this team and the teams the Redskins have fielded in the past. Although I am not a fan of Dan or Bruce, I really do like the change of direction the front office has taken towards building a roster. Whoever is responsible for that change of direction, you get a big thank you from me. The team is winning in spite of the attrition and I feel strongly that is because of the emphasis on building through the draft as opposed to signing older, more fragile veterans to lucrative contracts that more often than not, do not live up to their contracts. 

 

I know this is common sense, but this is HUGE in the grande scheme of things as far as I am concerned in how this team has lifted themselves from being an afterthought to a middling team, and even possibly a good team, depending on how you view their 6 wins against their 3 losses thus far.

 

 

@zskins has given you good advice. It is better if you change the title as opposed to the mods doing it. If they do it, that may come with some unintended consequences. 

 

This is pretty interesting. Jay and his staff do not get enough credit for developing players. And yes, the FO probably does not get enough credit for drafting well - although I think many have been willing to give them credit I know I have. It's their FA decisions and how they handle players already on the team that I have questions about. 

 

 

[slaga]

26 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

Eh this is basic 101 stuff, not impressive in the least.

It is not impressive in the least that only 6 NFL teams have drafted more current NFL players than the Redskin have? Another way to look at it is 25 teams have drafted fewer current NFL players than the Redskins have. Not only have the Redskins become more draft centric, but the quality of the players they drafted is good enough that even if they do not make it here, get traded, etc., they end up on another roster. The Redskins are in the top quarter of the league when it comes to draft picks landing on a roster. I had no idea that was the case and am a little impressed by it. 

[HardcoreZorn]

26 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

 

@zskins has given you good advice. It is better if you change the title as opposed to the mods doing it. If they do it, that may come with some unintended consequences. 

 

This is pretty interesting. Jay and his staff do not get enough credit for developing players. And yes, the FO probably does not get enough credit for drafting well - although I think many have been willing to give them credit I know I have. It's their FA decisions and how they handle players already on the team that I have questions about. 

 

 

How would you weight draft vs free agency? Honestly curious.

 

Also maybe I'm in the minority on this as well but Josh DJ and Zach Brown are damn good FA signings. Before that Djax. To a lesser extent guys like foster and VD. Guys like AP and Cooper coming in last minute and exceeding expectations (early for Cooper, Peterson already far surpassed them). The recent trade for Haha seemed low risk high reward and liked it. IDK, not saying we are perfect and have some misses, albeit at minimal cap impact, but on the whole I don't hate what we do on the pro personnel side either. At least not of late.

 

 

[HardcoreZorn]

2 minutes ago, slaga said:

It is not impressive in the least that only 6 NFL teams have drafted more current NFL players than the Redskin have? Another way to look at it is 25 teams have drafted fewer current NFL players than the Redskins have. Not only have the Redskins become more draft centric, but the quality of the players they drafted is good enough that even if they do not make it here, get traded, etc., they end up on another roster. The Redskins are in the top quarter of the league when it comes to draft picks landing on a roster. I had no idea that was the case and am a little impressed by it. 

It was sarcasm. I've spend a large chunk of my time on here debating with those who claimed we went from terrible in the personnel department during the Vinny days to nothing impressive. Where as I was of the belief that what we were doing was pretty damn good in the context of all 32 teams. And we have 10 draft picks presumably next year. Only going to infuse more talent.

 

Then there will also be guys like Adonis, Shaun Dion, Settle, that start emerging on defense. We need to attack the offensive side of the ball in the draft this year, at all positions. Not one should be off limits. It's too bad there aren't any high end receivers in FA this year, it would have been the year to pursue one hard.

 

Ended up rambling a bit, but yeah, what we're doing through the draft is impressive and Finlay's numbers back that up. And I think in a hard salary cap league, it's far more important than anything else.

[Warhead36]

We have done a much better job of drafting recently, but we aren't really drafting studs. We've done well getting good players, and roster depth guys in the mid to late rounds, but who was our last real home run pick? Like an Antonio Brown in round 6 or Tyreke Hill in round 5? Closest is probably Jordan Reed who was a 3rd rounder in 2013 but he's hurt too much.

[my_friend_goo]

For the past few years I've felt they've been good at drafting. The main issue for me is that they may be good at finding the complementary players, but not at finding that small handful of game-changing guys whose existence elevates everyone around them. 

 

Scot M used to talk about the number 1-5 guys on the roster being key and everybody else being good football players. But those 1-5 guys are either yet to establish themselves or even be drafted in the first place. Team won't be a contender without them.

 

Also got to do something about the injuries too.

[Anselmheifer]

1 minute ago, Warhead36 said:

We have done a much better job of drafting recently, but we aren't really drafting studs. We've done well getting good players, and roster depth guys in the mid to late rounds, but who was our last real home run pick? Like an Antonio Brown in round 6 or Tyreke Hill in round 5? Closest is probably Jordan Reed who was a 3rd rounder in 2013 but he's hurt too much.

 

Matt Ioannidis is on pace for 13.33 sacks, as a defensive lineman, and was chosen in the 5th. I think he counts. We just don't have any of those players on offense. 

[HardcoreZorn]

3 minutes ago, my_friend_goo said:

For the past few years I've felt they've been good at drafting. The main issue for me is that they may be good at finding the complementary players, but not at finding that small handful of game-changing guys whose existence elevates everyone around them. 

 

Scot M used to talk about the number 1-5 guys on the roster being key and everybody else being good football players. But those 1-5 guys are either yet to establish themselves or even be drafted in the first place. Team won't be a contender without them.

 

Also got to do something about the injuries too.

Guice, Allen, Payne, TBD, TBD. TBD most likely through the draft and not yet on the team in my opinion. But those three are our foundation IMO. And one hasn't played yet, one is a rookie with half a games of experience, and one is second year guy. This year is fun, I expected playoffs and think we get there. But next year is when I think the real fun will be. Hoping we bring back AP too.

2 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

 

Matt Ioannidis is on pace for 13.33 sacks, as a defensive lineman, and was chosen in the 5th. I think he counts. We just don't have any of those players on offense. 

Trent Scherff and Ioannidis are all Blues as well. DJ might be one too. But I put 2 TBD above because I think we are missing a physically dominant offensive pass catcher, and en elite edge rusher away from being there as a true contender IMO.

[sportjunkie07]

5 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

We have done a much better job of drafting recently, but we aren't really drafting studs. We've done well getting good players, and roster depth guys in the mid to late rounds, but who was our last real home run pick? Like an Antonio Brown in round 6 or Tyreke Hill in round 5? Closest is probably Jordan Reed who was a 3rd rounder in 2013 but he's hurt too much.

Prolly cousins tbh. Matt I. as well. 

 

I noticed significant changes posts Cerrato with free agency and the draft. Changes that have been increasingly for the better, especially concerning free agency and draft picks. 

 

Allens tenure is marked with major mistakes regarding the trading of draft picks, but he has been good concerning free agency penny pinching imo.

 

The search for a qb really hampered the teams success over the last decade, and the cap penalty we received was oppressive as well. 

 

We're trending in the right direction, but we need to start focusing resources on prvoiding weapons for the offense, shoring up the oline, and developing a qb. 

 

[OVCChairman]

Don't completely sleep on 6th round pick Chase Roullier....

 

We've built a team via the draft.  Quality players up and down the roster that are home grown talent.... Now it's time to take some chances.  We still NEED a LG.  In addition, lets get some game breaking talent players.  Whether that be stud WR or CB, or dominant style pass rusher.  Blazing ILB, or flashy TE.  

[skinfan2k]

34 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

Don't completely sleep on 6th round pick Chase Roullier....

 

We've built a team via the draft.  Quality players up and down the roster that are home grown talent.... Now it's time to take some chances.  We still NEED a LG.  In addition, lets get some game breaking talent players.  Whether that be stud WR or CB, or dominant style pass rusher.  Blazing ILB, or flashy TE.  

you can take chances when you have a good team.  We never had that liberty until this upcoming offseason 

[OVCChairman]

1 minute ago, skinfan2k said:

you can take chances when you have a good team.  We never had that liberty until this upcoming offseason 

 

 

absolutely my point

[Darrell Green Fan]

This kind of reminds me of how many NFL players Maryland produces but they still suck every year. 

[zCommander]

I would love to see Quinn become something special and a force on the offense. Not only it will be a feel good story but the fact that the selection that low actually panned out, when is the last that has happened to the Skins, and because the coaches saw something in him that everyone passed on. 

[JSSkinz]

6 hours ago, OVCChairman said:

lets get some game breaking talent players.  Whether that be stud WR

I don't know how we can do this unless it's through the draft, I think some solid options are Tate and possibly John Brown next offseason if Bal and Philly don't extend them before we have a chance, I'm scared to death we make the other moves you suggested and are left with a less than stellar WR core.

 

Neither of those guys are studs but there are no studs available.

 

[JoggingGod]

6 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

We have done a much better job of drafting recently, but we aren't really drafting studs. We've done well getting good players, and roster depth guys in the mid to late rounds, but who was our last real home run pick? Like an Antonio Brown in round 6 or Tyreke Hill in round 5? Closest is probably Jordan Reed who was a 3rd rounder in 2013 but he's hurt too much.

Uhhh Matt I?

[Renegade7]

7 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

We have done a much better job of drafting recently, but we aren't really drafting studs. We've done well getting good players, and roster depth guys in the mid to late rounds, but who was our last real home run pick? Like an Antonio Brown in round 6 or Tyreke Hill in round 5? Closest is probably Jordan Reed who was a 3rd rounder in 2013 but he's hurt too much.

 

Hate to use the C word but we drafted a Pro Bowl franchise QB with a 4th round pick, we just let him walk out the door.

[OVCChairman]

8 hours ago, JSSkinz said:

I don't know how we can do this unless it's through the draft, I think some solid options are Tate and possibly John Brown next offseason if Bal and Philly don't extend them before we have a chance, I'm scared to death we make the other moves you suggested and are left with a less than stellar WR core.

 

Neither of those guys are studs but there are no studs available.

 

 

 

I was meaning the draft.   We can now take a couple chances on guys who have potential higher upside 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

yes, too bad the draft hasn’t resulted in wins.... out be down as nonplussed.

[goskins10]

17 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

How would you weight draft vs free agency? Honestly curious.

 

Also maybe I'm in the minority on this as well but Josh DJ and Zach Brown are damn good FA signings. Before that Djax. To a lesser extent guys like foster and VD. Guys like AP and Cooper coming in last minute and exceeding expectations (early for Cooper, Peterson already far surpassed them). The recent trade for Haha seemed low risk high reward and liked it. IDK, not saying we are perfect and have some misses, albeit at minimal cap impact, but on the whole I don't hate what we do on the pro personnel side either. At least not of late.

 

 

Fair question. There have been a litany of failures but that is just part of it. For me there are some moves they have not made that have more impact. For example, they went several years signing cast offs or oft injured Dline players trying to find a NT instead of paying up for someone established. All the time and money they spent on FAs could have been spent on one or two higher profile guys. I am thinking Hood, McGee, McClain instead of say Hankins. 

 

Also signing guys with either very short histories of moderate success - Pryor or guys with injury histories like Richardson. Also, while I understood the Jackson Garcon decision, they should have kpet one. You should never let your two best WRs go from a successful passing attack. The offense clearly had trouble replacing that production. Yea, some of the yards were there. But the explosiveness was not there. I think that hurt the running game. 

 

Let me preface the next with I really like Panye. Was not a huge fan of the pick at the time as I thought there was better value to be had - or better yet trade down and still get him. But once in the building his draft position doesn't matter. Just produce and he truly has. Great player and great Redskins already. 

 

Having said that, had they signed Hankins as a FA, they would have not felt so compelled to draft DLine. They would have had many other options. Can you imagine Allen learning from Hankins with Calvin Ridley as a rookie WR to help that corp? Or Derwin James? How about keeping Vander Esch from the cowboys? He would be a great addition to the LBs. We don't need Ha Ha then (Yes, I liked the trade and still do but it would not have been necessary.) This bleeds into the draft but it was really a poor FA decision that drove what they did in the draft and some subsequent decisions. Now it seems to have worked out, but I think they missed a much better overall opportunity to make better use of all their resources.  

 

And yes you have to include the Kirk Cousins fiasco as a free agency failure - not just letting him go but not getting anything for him. Hopefully though you can see it's not just all about Kirk. It is a part of it but hopefully I have clearly outlined several other issues. 

 

Bottom line for me is I see a solid strategy for the draft. The seem to have a plan. But with FAs there does not seem to be a plan. And whatever plan they have does not seem to support the draft plan very well. Also, it does not appear they are looking as long term in FA as they are in the draft and the two plans - if there are two, are not very coordinated. They should be using free agents not just to fill holes, but to support their draft approach. 

[HardcoreZorn]

2 hours ago, goskins10 said:

Fair question. There have been a litany of failures but that is just part of it. For me there are some moves they have not made that have more impact. For example, they went several years signing cast offs or oft injured Dline players trying to find a NT instead of paying up for someone established. All the time and money they spent on FAs could have been spent on one or two higher profile guys. I am thinking Hood, McGee, McClain instead of say Hankins. 

 

Also signing guys with either very short histories of moderate success - Pryor or guys with injury histories like Richardson. Also, while I understood the Jackson Garcon decision, they should have kpet one. You should never let your two best WRs go from a successful passing attack. The offense clearly had trouble replacing that production. Yea, some of the yards were there. But the explosiveness was not there. I think that hurt the running game. 

 

Let me preface the next with I really like Panye. Was not a huge fan of the pick at the time as I thought there was better value to be had - or better yet trade down and still get him. But once in the building his draft position doesn't matter. Just produce and he truly has. Great player and great Redskins already. 

 

Having said that, had they signed Hankins as a FA, they would have not felt so compelled to draft DLine. They would have had many other options. Can you imagine Allen learning from Hankins with Calvin Ridley as a rookie WR to help that corp? Or Derwin James? How about keeping Vander Esch from the cowboys? He would be a great addition to the LBs. We don't need Ha Ha then (Yes, I liked the trade and still do but it would not have been necessary.) This bleeds into the draft but it was really a poor FA decision that drove what they did in the draft and some subsequent decisions. Now it seems to have worked out, but I think they missed a much better overall opportunity to make better use of all their resources.  

 

And yes you have to include the Kirk Cousins fiasco as a free agency failure - not just letting him go but not getting anything for him. Hopefully though you can see it's not just all about Kirk. It is a part of it but hopefully I have clearly outlined several other issues. 

 

Bottom line for me is I see a solid strategy for the draft. The seem to have a plan. But with FAs there does not seem to be a plan. And whatever plan they have does not seem to support the draft plan very well. Also, it does not appear they are looking as long term in FA as they are in the draft and the two plans - if there are two, are not very coordinated. They should be using free agents not just to fill holes, but to support their draft approach. 

 

All of these are great examples, I actually happen to agree with many of them and have touched on some when trying to explain that I don’t looooove Bruce Allen, just don’t hate the guy and he’s brought some good.

 

Not getting anything for Kirk was inexcusable and I’ve said so many times. Just cause I didn’t agree with paying him that money, nor that we were the only ones to blame for how the situation went down, does not mean I ever believed letting him walk for a 3rd round comp pick was some sort of shrewd move. The FO botched that, I called to trade him in 2017 offseason prior to joining here. In hindsight, would have been the correct call. Ironically though, I think they caved to fan pressure on that one as well. The reaction wouldn’t have been great if we shipped off our franchise QB for the unknown in draft picks. But it’s what should have been done.

 

They should have kept Djax IMO. Garçon, while the man, had a replaceable skill set. Tough YAC guy and blocker is easier to replace than generational deep ball talent.

 

Have also talked about D line some, though it appears their plan was to throw cheap bodies there until we drafted some of our own. It’s tough for me to be overly critical here because while for years they seemed not to address it,  it really does appear there was actually a plan. A plan that is now reaping huge rewards and will be the foundation of our team for the next decade hopefully. Just took time and patience for that to bear out. Do we have Payne/Allen/Ioan if we had paid big bucks to guys like Campbell? Probably not. And while Campbell would have been awesome, it’s way more awesome to have 3 young pro-bowl caliber talents that you drafted here in DC.

 

Its easy to say sign Hankins, draft James, boom we would have been better off. But I don’t really agree, and I would have agreed at the time. First, Hankins doesn’t even sniff Payne’s talent from what I’ve seen. Do you know how rare it is to find a NT who’s been playing as many snaps as he has? Hankins is a great 2 down run stuffer, Payne has the potential to grow into one of the top DL in the league, and contribute vs run and pass. Remember, he’s 21. He has a good 3 years before he’s even entering his physical prime. James was my dude, heart sank a little when we passed on him. But DJ is balling out and playing pro bowl caliber football at the safety position. I think I take Payne and Haha along with DJ over Hankins, James playing with DJ and our 4th rounder.

 

All in all, we aren’t perfect. Not many organizations are if we are being honest. I just weight the draft so heavily that I’m willing to deal with FA hiccups as long as we continue to infuse the amount of talent we have had through the draft. And I guess I do see a plan, don’t shell put big money to FA’s, but rather use it as a tool to fill spots until guys we’ve drafted take over. It’s a long slow painful process, but we are almost at that point where you’ll start finding young guys everywhere all over the roster. A true pipeline where you can let some guys walk, collect comp picks to increase draft hits, and keep the process rolling. It’s a beautiful thing.

[goskins10]

1 minute ago, HardcoreZorn said:

 

Edit

 

Its easy to say sign Hankins, draft James, boom we would have been better off. But I don’t really agree, and I would have agreed at the time. First, Hankins doesn’t even sniff Payne’s talent from what I’ve seen. Do you know how rare it is to find a NT who’s been playing as many snaps as he has? Hankins is a great 2 down run stuffer, Payne has the potential to grow into one of the top DL in the league, and contribute vs run and pass. Remember, he’s 21. He has a good 3 years before he’s even entering his physical prime. James was my dude, heart sank a little when we passed on him. But DJ is balling out and playing pro bowl caliber football at the safety position. I think I take Payne and Haha along with DJ over Hankins, James playing with DJ and our 4th rounder.

 

Not saying that signing Hankins and James would automatically make us better on it's own. My point was it gave them options. For example, they could have taken more of a chance to trade down and still get Payne understanding they had Hankins already. So you could very possibly signed Hankins, still drafted Payne and gotten another draft pick. ALso don;t forget getting Dix cost us a draft pick. So it's not a one to one. 

 

But Again, it's more about a plan, or lack there of than specific items and how they worked out. I was just providing some examples of what i saw. Also, again I really like Payne and what he brings and how he, Allen and Matt are gelling together.  But a top level veteran with those guys would not have hurt, not to mention providing themselves more options and flexibility. 

 

1 minute ago, HardcoreZorn said:

 

All in all, we aren’t perfect. Not many organizations are if we are being honest. I just weight the draft so heavily that I’m willing to deal with FA hiccups as long as we continue to infuse the amount of talent we have had through the draft. And I guess I do see a plan, don’t shell put big money to FA’s, but rather use it as a tool to fill spots until guys we’ve drafted take over. It’s a long slow painful process, but we are almost at that point where you’ll start finding young guys everywhere all over the roster. A true pipeline where you can let some guys walk, collect comp picks to increase draft hits, and keep the process rolling. It’s a beautiful thing.

 

And that's fair. I just see some major opportunities missed to make the draft even more effective. I do like our recent drafts - said so above and when they happened. Hell I picked 3 of the same players in our mock draft - shameless plug. Love getting comp picks for once. 

 

What worries me is when these guys start getting to the end of their rookie contracts. Will they make the right decisions? So far it's a serious mixed bag. But there is time. We will see. Expect the worst but hope for the best....