Racism in America.... Is it worse now after the 2016 election?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 minute ago, Kilmer17 said:

I've seen a bunch of those over the years, and they never go far enough to prove their hypothesis.  It's always just anecdotal.  That said, I am sure that there are people who wont rent their houses on air bnb to people with black names.

 

this gets into my question earlier - don't you think there are asian people who only rent to asians? don't you think there are indian people who keep it in the tribe? at what point will racism against black people in america have been reduced to just your run-of-the-mill stereotyping or prejudice that we see across all demographics? i'm not arguing that we are there - i doubt we are...but that behavior will never be completely eradicated. 

[The Evil Genius]

Meanwhile...

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2018 by The Evil Genius

[Renegade7]

17 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

I've seen a bunch of those over the years, and they never go far enough to prove their hypothesis.  It's always just anecdotal.  That said, I am sure that there are people who wont rent their houses on air bnb to people with black names.

 

I wouldn't go far as to say trying to prove that as anecdotal given I believe we all know this happens. How much is hard to say, let alone how to truly prove it.  I'd say it's enough to make an impact on the home loan thing especially because it's not just getting the loan it's where they want to get the house.  There's evidence of red lining still occurring this country, but again, we don't have enough resources to stop all the obvious examples and I'd like to start there.

[Kilmer17]

1 minute ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I wouldn't go far as to say trying to prove that as anecdotal given I believe we all know this happens. How much is hard to say, let alone how to truly prove it.  I'd say it's enough to make an impact on the home loan thing especially because it's not just getting the loan it's where they want to get the house.  There's evidence of red lining still occurring this country, but again, we don't have enough resources to stop all the obvious examples and I'd like to start there.

How is a black person prevented from getting a house where they want other than the mortgage side?  That seems like an easy fix if it's happening.

[Renegade7]

21 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

this gets into my question earlier - don't you think there are asian people who only rent to asians? don't you think there are indian people who keep it in the tribe? at what point will racism against black people in america have been reduced to just your run-of-the-mill stereotyping or prejudice that we see across all demographics? i'm not arguing that we are there - i doubt we are...but that behavior will never be completely eradicated. 

Racism and racial sterotyping aren't going anywhere soon, but to your original question, I may be wrong but I look at sterotyping as what you expect from someone and racism being a feeling that one race is superior or inferior to the other.  I'd say there's a clear crossover line there.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Just now, Renegade7 said:

Racism and racial sterotyping aren't going anywhere soon, but to your original question, I may be wrong but I look at sterotyping as what you expect from someone and racism being a feeling that one race is superior or inferior to the other.  I'd say there's a clear crossover line there.

 

I agree with your definitions! That's kind of the crux of my question...we don't know motive in 99% of cases. How will we ever know if something is racist vs. something being a result of stereotyping? And how do we know that some of these anecdotal examples aren't the latter?

[Renegade7]

Just now, Kilmer17 said:

How is a black person prevented from getting a house where they want other than the mortgage side?  That seems like an easy fix if it's happening.

You'd think so, but if we have trouble proving people are denied loans because of race even with equal resources, how can you prove the reason isn't the location instead?  Red lining is huge reason most major cities in US have huge pockets of black people, for perspective, though less blatant now.

[Kilmer17]

2 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

You'd think so, but if we have trouble proving people are denied loans because of race even with equal resources, how can you prove the reason isn't the location instead?  Red lining is huge reason most major cities in US have huge pockets of black people, for perspective, though less blatant now.

I'm breaking my own rule and offering an anecdote.  

 

If Bill Smith wants to buy a house in my neighborhood, how can redlining prevent him from buying?  

 

It was a serious problem decades ago, which is why we see clusters of race still today.  But is it because of MORE redlining?  Or just that people are likely to stay where they are?

[Renegade7]

4 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I agree with your definitions! That's kind of the crux of my question...we don't know motive in 99% of cases. How will we ever know if something is racist vs. something being a result of stereotyping? And how do we know that some of these anecdotal examples aren't the latter?

If I try to get an apartment and meet requirements, the sterotyping of blacks beeing welfare leeches doesn't work and doesn't matter if I get approved.  If an apartment complex limits or tries not rent to black to people... that's what got Trump in trouble back in the day.  Sterotypes have exceptions, racists don't make exceptions.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

nevermind - dumb story

Edited August 31, 2018 by TD_washingtonredskins
nevermind

[Destino]

15 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

I'm breaking my own rule and offering an anecdote.  

 

If Bill Smith wants to buy a house in my neighborhood, how can redlining prevent him from buying?  

 

It was a serious problem decades ago, which is why we see clusters of race still today.  But is it because of MORE redlining?  Or just that people are likely to stay where they are?

 

It's often a lot more subtle than you're picturing it.  It's not that banks won't lend to black mortgage clients, it's that minority home buyers are more likely to be steered into less ideal loans.  That reduces their buying power.  They're also less likely to be shown homes in the same neighborhoods as whites. 

 

If we use your example Bill may not be shown the house in your neighborhood, or despite being a perfectly qualified buyer for it, his mortgage lender may steer him into a product that doesn't let him buy a house at that price.  Bill can certainly overcome these hurdles.  He can do his own research and demand that he be shown different homes or allowed to apply for certain loan products, but many won't.  Most, in fact, will not.  Over time this can create a widespread difference in demographics of neighborhoods across the country.

 

That's not the only issue though.  There is also old fashion prejudice as well.  People of race X may simply not feel comfortable living in a neighborhood that almost entirely race Y.  This also works to concentrate racial groups together, which is typically seen as bad.  The behavior I mean, not the neighborhood.  Minority neighborhoods are a good empowering thing. 

 

[Kilmer17]

When I refi'd my loan two years ago, I shopped and found the mortgage broker who could offer me the rate that I knew I could get based on my own research.  If I had just taken the first offer, it would not have been the best deal for me.  

 

If a black person went through the same thing but didnt do his own research, that's not racism.  That's personal responsibility.

[Destino]

6 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

When I refi'd my loan two years ago, I shopped and found the mortgage broker who could offer me the rate that I knew I could get based on my own research.  If I had just taken the first offer, it would not have been the best deal for me.  

 

If a black person went through the same thing but didnt do his own research, that's not racism.  That's personal responsibility.

If a person is steered into a disadvantageous loan product because of they are of a different race, that's racism.  The victims actions can overcome it, but that doesn't mean it never happened.  I worked in the mortgage business and I saw a lot of bad behavior, and I've read studies and statistics on it for years.  It happens. 

 

Here's one thing no one likes to talk about though, that I noticed in my own personal experience.  Often the people screwing minority home buyers, are minority loan officers and real estate agents.  They use that trust to pad their bank accounts at their clients expense.  When I read statistics on which buyers are steered into which products, I rarely see the race of the loan officers mentioned. 

[Renegade7]

@Kilmer17 check these when you get a chance 

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/10/remember-redlining-its-alive-and-evolving/433065/

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-modern-day-redlining-20180215-story,amp.html

 

There are stats that I question showing when neighborhood reaches 10% black properate values drop, but crime totally does, which shouldn't shock anyone to leading blacks to want to get out of them and not buy houses there.  Banks wouldnt stop Bill Smith from moving into a black neighborhood, decentrification says hello.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Renegade7

[Renegade7]

19 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

When I refi'd my loan two years ago, I shopped and found the mortgage broker who could offer me the rate that I knew I could get based on my own research.  If I had just taken the first offer, it would not have been the best deal for me.  

 

If a black person went through the same thing but didnt do his own research, that's not racism.  That's personal responsibility.

 

Plenty of black people weighing their options and getting similar or same answer.  Please don't try to simplfy this like it's that easy.

[Kilmer17]

That’s not my intent.  

 

I think a lot of what people claim is racist is really just sleazy sales practices. 

[NoCalMike]

Overcoming racist hurdles by having to do extra work does not excuse nor mean the hurdles did not exist. 

[Going Commando]

2 hours ago, zoony said:

It all depends on how woke you are

 

You just figured out what that word means didn't you?

[Renegade7]

15 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

That’s not my intent.  

 

I think a lot of what people claim is racist is really just sleazy sales practices. 

Ya, I think you coulda worded that better, but it's all good. 

 

I'll add that i agree there are more then their fair share of equal opportunity assholes, but that's not what this thread is about. My hope is some of the posts in here, like @Destino personal experience and articles I'm posting give clearer picture into why we feel this way at least about the home loan thing.

[Llevron]

1 hour ago, Destino said:

Here's one thing no one likes to talk about though, that I noticed in my own personal experience.  Often the people screwing minority home buyers, are minority loan officers and real estate agents.  They use that trust to pad their bank accounts at their clients expense.  When I read statistics on which buyers are steered into which products, I rarely see the race of the loan officers mentioned. 

 

Crabs in a bucket. My mom taught me many things about that as a young man. People don like to talk about it. And I understand why. But it happens alot and not just in the industry you guys are talking about. 

[grego]

44 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

That’s not my intent.  

 

I think a lot of what people claim is racist is really just sleazy sales practices. 

 

I would add (anecdotally) that I've been treated so badly at times by cops, prosecutors, parole board members, counselors, correctional officers, and probably other people in the criminal justice system, not to mention car salesman when I was younger and naive, and other various people, that, were I black, had an accent or something, I would have sworn they were being racist. It's possible some were-many of these people weren't white- but who knows. Could have been. Could have just been really horrible people who were looking out for themselves at another's expense. 

[JSSkinz]

1 hour ago, Kilmer17 said:

I'm breaking my own rule and offering an anecdote.  

 

If Bill Smith wants to buy a house in my neighborhood, how can redlining prevent him from buying?  

 

It was a serious problem decades ago, which is why we see clusters of race still today.  But is it because of MORE redlining?  Or just that people are likely to stay where they are?

This doesn't happen in consumer banking, everything is underwritten by algorithms and gives you an accept or decline, there would have to be blatant fraud in which case the bank would most definitely get caught and they would lose their ass.

 

There is no "person" making a decision on consumer loans, they input the data and run the program and it tells them if someone is approved or not.

1 hour ago, Destino said:

If a person is steered into a disadvantageous loan product because of they are of a different race, that's racism.  The victims actions can overcome it, but that doesn't mean it never happened.  I worked in the mortgage business and I saw a lot of bad behavior, and I've read studies and statistics on it for years.  It happens. 

 

Here's one thing no one likes to talk about though, that I noticed in my own personal experience.  Often the people screwing minority home buyers, are minority loan officers and real estate agents.  They use that trust to pad their bank accounts at their clients expense.  When I read statistics on which buyers are steered into which products, I rarely see the race of the loan officers mentioned. 

Can you give me an example, now if you were a broker I understand you probably have seen lots of fraud as brokers back then were pretty dirty and with new licensing requirements, the dirty brokers have been removed from the industry.

 

To keep anyone regardless of color from getting financing you would have to finagle the income or credit, how exactly would someone do that?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 hour ago, Destino said:

Here's one thing no one likes to talk about though, that I noticed in my own personal experience.  Often the people screwing minority home buyers, are minority loan officers and real estate agents.  They use that trust to pad their bank accounts at their clients expense.  When I read statistics on which buyers are steered into which products, I rarely see the race of the loan officers mentioned. 

 

But, in a lot of ways, this isn't racism...it's just money-hungry people being opportunistic. They would do the same thing if Cletus walked in wearing overalls. This is an example of why I tried to delineate earlier. Some of what is being discussed in here is just people (regardless of race) using stereotypes to take advantage of other people (regardless of race). 

[Kilmer17]

Britches clothing store refused to take a check from me when I was 17 because their policy forbid taking checks from anyone under 18.  

 

I got my revenge though.  They’re out of business now. 

 

I can both decry outright and obvious racism and also tell those who are just getting screwed without it being racially motivated that sometimes people suck 

Edited August 31, 2018 by Kilmer17

[NoCalMike]

Sometimes it is possible for people to be both jerks & racist.