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2019 Comprehensive Draft Thread

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2 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

I would actually be utterly shocked if we don't go QB in the first. Shocked. Just please do not mortgage the future for the unknown.

 

I don't take Florio that seriously but heard him just now say he's heard the Redskins linked a couple of times to Flacco, if so yuck.  But a lot of noise that they are going to do something at QB. 

 

For me I do think you can have a good young nucleus (which I think they do have) on defense and still have a crap year.  See NY Jets on and off over the years among others.  My point is it would drive me nuts if they mortgage the 2020 draft for anyone but Haskins because if they ride with Colt I could easily see them have a top 5 pick.  Lock and Jones IMO aren't worth giving up major draft capital -- or so is my opinion before diving into either prospect so maybe my take changes soon but that's how I feel now. 

 

Their dilemma though is fascinating.

 

A.  You got a division rival poised to have their cake and eat it too by having two bad seasons in a row -- they get the best RB last year and could end up with the best QB this year and then they likely leapfrog the Redskins as the better team and one with a more exciting future to boot.  Do they try to preempt that?

 

B. Some say the Cardinals will trade the #1 pick.  And you might have to go up that high to get Haskins.  What's the draft capital to go up from 15 to 1?  Wouldn't that be more than the RG3 ransom which was just from 4 to 2. 

 

C.  The Dolphins (I know that team well being in South Florida) are almost the mirror image of the Skins -- mired in mediocrity for years like the Redskins with similar excuses that the Redskins have used for it.  Fans are a combination of bored or fed up -- more bored though then fed up.  Lot of talk here about them needing to jazz up the fan base with a new QB.

 

D.   The easy way to split the difference is to let Haskins-Murray go and trade ahead of Denver (lots of reports of Elway scouting the current QB crop like crazy in person this year) to get Jones or Lock.  The issue there is are fans really going to get jazzed about either dude?  I don't think so.  So they better be good.  And if they aren't that hot and they mortgage a 2020 first rounder and lose out on a crop that includes Fromm, Tua and Herbert.  Wow.  

 

If I were in their shoes not sure what I'd do.  I guess if I thought Haskins was great (not sure if I personally think he is but don't know) then I'd do that RG3 type of deal.  I'd worry about trading up for Murray because of a number of things including his flirting with baseball that hasn't stopped from what I heard today.   No way, I'd trade a 2020 first rounder for either Jones or Lock unless I was VERY convinced they were special.    

 

If buzz is part of the equation then maybe the next tier of guys like Grier or Rypien fit the bill where you grab either later in the draft without sacrificing anything.  My hardline position is don't trade your 2020 #1 pick to land Lock or Jones.  Ironically the last time we did so, we got the #2 pick the next year and alas that was for the Rams to have fun with not us. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise

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1 hour ago, nonniey said:

Fromm is also a probable entrant and is in the same tier as Tua, additionally Herbert and Eason are lesser 1st round talents that are better prospects than any 2019 prospect.  My preference would be to draft no one in the 1st round this year and accumulate 2020 and 2021 draft capital (but as Fresh8686 posted above, I can see Allen crippling the Redskins long term by moving up to draft Haskins in an attempt to protect his own position).

 

Herbert isn’t nearly the QB that Haskins is and I don’t think Fromm is either. Herbert is inaccurate and not as advanced with his decision making. Fromm has a lesser arm and lesser productivity and I’m not really sure in what area you can say he’s better than haskins. 

 

Looking at Tua, is he really better than Haskins? His arm is there. He is more mobile. He has good stats. Can also read a defense. But, he stunk it up both against Georgia and Clemson. Haskins has yet to have a game that poor. Maybe Tua is better, but I think that’s TBD and not a given. 

 

What makes you say Fromm and Herbert are any better than Haskins? I have a feeling everyone is paralyzed from hearing, “class of 2020” so often. 

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OL should be the first look with the 1st rounder. A strong athletic Guard/Center would be great.

 

I would also have to strongly consider who else is on the board when our 1st pick falls. If there is a game changing WR still on the board, he might take priority over the Interior Lineman, with that becoming top priority for our 2nd pick.

At our spot, we should be able to get one of the top two interior linemen in the draft. Third and 1s become fun.

Edited by IrepDC

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53 minutes ago, IrepDC said:

OL should be the first look with the 1st rounder. A strong athletic Guard/Center would be great. If there is a game changing WR still on the board, he might take priority over the Interior Lineman, with that becoming top priority for our 2nd pick.

 

Yes, shoring up the OL is a must this offseason but at 15 you never know who is going to be available.  With the first four Redskin picks I'd like to get OL, WR, TE, and EDGE in no particular order.  But if the better players happen to be ILB, CB, DT and S I would still be happy.    

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Hey mods please end my Tailgate ban. The NFL Regular season is now finished, and therefore, as was stipulated in the original

terms of my punishment, my banishment is now over. Thank you!

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1 hour ago, IrepDC said:

OL should be the first look with the 1st rounder. A strong athletic Guard/Center would be great.

 

I would also have to strongly consider who else is on the board when our 1st pick falls. If there is a game changing WR still on the board, he might take priority over the Interior Lineman, with that becoming top priority for our 2nd pick.

At our spot, we should be able to get one of the top two interior linemen in the draft. Third and 1s become fun.

I haven’t looked too much at receivers yet, particularly the top of the draft guys (aside from Campbell, though he’s projected 2nd-3rd).  However, the impression I get is there isn’t one I’d be happy to land at 15.  

 

Depending on if a top player falls, it looks like 15 lines up for DT, corner and edge rusher, and then a possibility or two for olinemen (there are a few others that might be there - Thompson at safety, for instance).  I’d consider a trade back depending on who’s available - maybe recoup our 4th.  

 

All of that is assuming we don’t make a play for a qb, which is a poor assumption.  

3 minutes ago, Mournblade said:

Hey mods please end my Tailgate ban. The NFL Regular season is now finished, and therefore, as was stipulated in the original

terms of my punishment, my banishment is now over. Thank you!

Did you try @ing them, or using PM?

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What am I missing regarding Chase Winovich?  Why isn’t he getting more love?  

His motor is unbelievable, can bend the edge well, hand use is very good, speed is good, speed to power is good, pretty consistent getting off blocks, smart player, plays the run like a champ.  A lot of the other rushers I’ve watched are just there when they get stonewalled initially, but Winovich fights through more often than not.  Bull rush, speed rush, inside rush, stunting, grip and pull - he’s got an arsenal.  His tenacity really sets him apart though - consistently looks like a starved dog going after a steak.  

Noticed that Walter comps him to Clay Matthews and I can absolutely see it.  He’s so fun to watch.  Just watched him track down a running back 45 yards downfield.  I wouldn’t hesitate to take him at 15.  

 

I guess his stats don’t stand out quite like some others though, so maybe that’s the issue?

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1 hour ago, skinny21 said:

What am I missing regarding Chase Winovich?  Why isn’t he getting more love?  

His motor is unbelievable, can bend the edge well, hand use is very good, speed is good, speed to power is good, pretty consistent getting off blocks, smart player, plays the run like a champ.  A lot of the other rushers I’ve watched are just there when they get stonewalled initially, but Winovich fights through more often than not.  Bull rush, speed rush, inside rush, stunting, grip and pull - he’s got an arsenal.  His tenacity really sets him apart though - consistently looks like a starved dog going after a steak.  

Noticed that Walter comps him to Clay Matthews and I can absolutely see it.  He’s so fun to watch.  Just watched him track down a running back 45 yards downfield.  I wouldn’t hesitate to take him at 15.  

 

I guess his stats don’t stand out quite like some others though, so maybe that’s the issue?

Only 5 sacks this year. I don't think he's a 12-15 sack guy looking to explode once he hits the NFL. We have some high motor guys. Anderson. Even Preston Smith. I think people are fantasizing about that double digit sack guy to play across from Kerrigan. 

 

 

Such an explosive hitter. How high is this kid projected to go in the draft, and have any of you watched him much or evaluated him? He looks on the small side for a safety and only has 2 career INT's. He has a solid number of PD's though. I'd like this pick better than Apke in the mid to late rounds. At a minimum, he should be a special teams demon. 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

Such an explosive hitter. How high is this kid projected to go in the draft, and have any of you watched him much or evaluated him? He looks on the small side for a safety and only has 2 career INT's. He has a solid number of PD's though. I'd like this pick better than Apke in the mid to late rounds. At a minimum, he should be a special teams demon. 

 

He is a fun player to watch and I think you're right about him being a mid to late rounder and a special teams standout.  He's got some coverage issues and I'm not really sure what his NFL position is.  Kind of fluctuated between sub package corner and safety at Texas and didn't really find a home there.  He plays with the spirit of a linebacker but he's in a DB's body.  Does best in run support and he's a quality blitzer, but if you play him as nickel, I think you're going to have some trouble single covering slot receivers.  Feels like a guy like Crowder would eat him up.

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8 hours ago, skinny21 said:

What am I missing regarding Chase Winovich?  Why isn’t he getting more love?  

His motor is unbelievable, can bend the edge well, hand use is very good, speed is good, speed to power is good, pretty consistent getting off blocks, smart player, plays the run like a champ.  A lot of the other rushers I’ve watched are just there when they get stonewalled initially, but Winovich fights through more often than not.  Bull rush, speed rush, inside rush, stunting, grip and pull - he’s got an arsenal.  His tenacity really sets him apart though - consistently looks like a starved dog going after a steak.  

Noticed that Walter comps him to Clay Matthews and I can absolutely see it.  He’s so fun to watch.  Just watched him track down a running back 45 yards downfield.  I wouldn’t hesitate to take him at 15.  

 

I guess his stats don’t stand out quite like some others though, so maybe that’s the issue?

 

I've talked about him a little during the season, 18.5 career sacks, 44 tackles for losses, good against the run.  He's a character, too.   Plays with a lot of fire.  In mocks you typically see him in the 2nd or 3rd.    Was looking forward to seeing him in the senior bowl but he's out.   He doesn't seem to have the bend and explosion of the better pass rushers in the group.  I've watched a bunch of Michigan games this year.  But refreshed myself with Winovich right now and watched his sacks, hard to see a lot of moves and for a bunch of them he was unblocked.  He's feisty and plays with a high motor.   I think he will be a good player though.  I wouldn't mind him in the 2nd or 3rd but dying for a true explosive speed rusher for a change playing RDE. 

 

 

From a guy who watched Brett Rypien in practice this week

 

https://thedraftnetwork.com/2019/01/18/tdn-mailbag-shrine-week-edition/

Brett Rypien has been exactly what I thought he was, solid but unspectacular. He should definitely make it in the NFL as a backup quarterback, but I don’t know that he’ll ever be a preferable starter at the position. He’s easily the best quarterback on the West team.

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise

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@Skinsinparadise  I have to disagree about a bunch of Winovich’s sacks resulting from being unblocked.  Unless you’re referring to RO plays, but of course those aren’t counted as sacks.  Looked like 1 this year and maybe 1 or 2 last year I believe.  

He also was injured the 2nd game of the year and opted to delay surgery and play through it.  

 

I do see your point about speed rushing though, he hasn’t really shown an impressive ability to really bend the edge.  On the flip side, when he was rushing wide and the qb stepped up in the pocket, I liked his ability to switch to an inside rush/disengage better than the other top prospects I’ve watched.  

 

@Anselmheifer  There’s more to the story of course, but last year Winovich put up 8.5 sacks, better than Walker’s best year.  Polite, on the other hand, recorded 11 this year, but wasn’t nearly as productive prior to that (to be fair, he didn’t play much).  Winovich also switched to TE his sophomore year, then recorded 5 sacks after switching to DE his junior season (though I believe he played OLB in HS, so this wasn’t completely new to him).  Take this with a grain of salt, but Chase was also in place for quite a few sacks but a teammate got there first.  

 

Kind of a trip that Winovich and Clay Matthews both started out at TE in college.  Matthews faced questions about playing with an excellent team around him and I wonder if Winovich will face the same.  Winovich was, of course, far more productive than Matthews and is about 15 pounds heavier, so less of a question mark as to his transition.  Bummed for him that he’s going to test injured at the combine, because I’m really curious about his speed/quickness.  

 

In hindsight, Green Bay looked really smart trading up for Matthews.  If Matthews went 26th, I don’t see any reason Winovich isn’t worth a 1st.  I’d love to be the team that looks smart for landing Winovich years down the road, but it’s unlikely.  And maybe he’s not the player I think he is, or maybe injuries derail his career.  Guess we’ll see.  

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3 hours ago, skinny21 said:

@Skinsinparadise  I have to disagree about a bunch of Winovich’s sacks resulting from being unblocked.  Unless you’re referring to RO plays, but of course those aren’t counted as sacks.  Looked like 1 this year and maybe 1 or 2 last year I believe.  

 

 

I just watched them on youtube.  I saw a bunch where he just ran unimpeded right at the QB whether he was left unblocked for a RO play, didn't notice.

 

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/redskins/2019-nfl-mock-draft-history-shows-cost-acquiring-kyler-murray-within-redskins-reality

Here’s the potential cost for moving up based on recent teams originally selecting 15 or lower.

2018 

  • Cardinals trade 15, 79, 152 to Raiders for 10 (QB Josh Rosen)
  • Bills trade 21, 158 and offensive tackle Cordy Glenn to Bengals for 12 (NT Vita Vea) and 187

2017

  • Texans trade 25 and a 2018 first-round selection to Browns for 12 (QB Deshaun Watson)

2016

  • Titans trade 15, 76 and a 2017 second round selection to Browns for 8 (OT Jack Conklin), 176

Based on the price Houston paid moving up 13 spots, the cost of jumping past the Giants and Jaguars assuming those teams stay put, for Haskins would require a massive outlay. Recall the bushel of high picks Washington sent St. Louis for the right to draft Robert Griffin III just to move from six to two.

However, the cost for moving from 15 ahead of 13 is not steep relative to the QB need – and the picks at Washington’s disposal.

The trades for Rosen and Conklin are most similar to each other and the Redskins’ situation. Tennessee paid a heavier price in 2016 going from 15 to eight than Arizona did with a move from 15 to 10 last season.

What’s noteworthy from the Washington’s perspective is the ammunition available. The Redskins have their original selections except for the fourth-rounder sent to Green Bay for Ha Ha Clinton-Dix and sixth used to snag Adonis Alexander in the supplemental draft. In addition, projections show compensatory picks in the third, fifth and sixth round coming their way based on three of their 2018 free agents – Kirk Cousins, Trent Murphy, Ryan Grant – signing elsewhere.

While the Redskins have a lengthy list of needs, these extra selections allow for a tick more aggressiveness if interested. Washington could make the exact same Arizona trade from last season to jump Miami for Murray or another quarterback and still own seven selections including a first, second and third.

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If a top ten stud drops, I'd rather trade back a little and get a Grier/ OG combo. Something just makes me think Grier would be a good fit for Gruden

Edited by bowhunter
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On 1/17/2019 at 3:21 PM, Skinsinparadise said:

I don't take Florio that seriously but heard him just now say he's heard the Redskins linked a couple of times to Flacco, if so yuck.  But a lot of noise that they are going to do something at QB. 

 

For me I do think you can have a good young nucleus (which I think they do have) on defense and still have a crap year.  See NY Jets on and off over the years among others.  My point is it would drive me nuts if they mortgage the 2020 draft for anyone but Haskins because if they ride with Colt I could easily see them have a top 5 pick.  Lock and Jones IMO aren't worth giving up major draft capital -- or so is my opinion before diving into either prospect so maybe my take changes soon but that's how I feel now.

 

Agreed on Flacco, I've considered him done as a QB in the league for awhile now.  He's not taking any team anywhere.  2012 was clearly an aberration.

 

Jones and Lock aren't worth giving up major draft capital, and I'll also say I don't think either are worth drafting in the 1st round.  I like Jones a lot, but I think he's just the next Colt McCoy.  Jones is smart, can move around, good at touch throws, but struggles on Out Routes.  I don't think Jones has enough zip to be reliable.  Saw too many Out Routes in college get broken up or almost intercepted.  So I've got Jones in the stellar backup QB category.  If something happens and he has to play a few games, the team won't be in a bad spot.  But any real length of time and better coordinated teams will start making adjustments around what Jones can't throw.

 

Lock on the other hand, I've got him as a 3rd-4th round candidate.  I don't think he's anywhere near ready for the NFL.  I don't like his release point, I think he struggles with touch throws to the point where he might not "get it".  He's got a legit arm, for sure, but the NFL is littered with 1st round busts who have a strong arm.

 

My biggest issue with Lock is when there's interior pressure that comes in his face, I think his game falls apart completely when that happens.  If we had him, I think we'd wonder why every team was blitzing us up the middle.  Dallas's stunts would wreck Lock, and we'd spend the first two years begging to fix our o-line issues, before realizing in the 3rd year that Lock just folds under pressure.

 

So for our 1st round QB ideas, that leaves to me, just Murray and Haskins.  Haskins is going Top 7, but some team is probably trading up for him.  Murray might fall due to his size.  Do we draft Murray at 15?  He's talented enough to say yes, but what if his small stature turns him into the next RG3?  Could we even trade down and still draft Murray in the 20's?  Maybe.

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....Could we even trade down and still draft Murray in the 20's?  Maybe......

33 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

.......  Do we draft Murray at 15?  He's talented enough to say yes, but what if his small stature turns him into the next RG3?  Could we even trade down and still draft Murray in the 20's?  Maybe......

Murray is a huge risk and ironically in some ways the lower you draft him the bigger the risk. At what point is it more economically advantageous to him to stick with his baseball contract?  He scares me.

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On 1/17/2019 at 12:21 PM, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I don't take Florio that seriously but heard him just now say he's heard the Redskins linked a couple of times to Flacco, if so yuck.  But a lot of noise that they are going to do something at QB. 

If they sign Flacco I may just join the Fire Bruce Allen movement. Good god that would be awful, please no. We can't afford that anyway unless it's at the expense of all other parts of the team.

On 1/17/2019 at 12:21 PM, Skinsinparadise said:

 

For me I do think you can have a good young nucleus (which I think they do have) on defense and still have a crap year.  See NY Jets on and off over the years among others.  My point is it would drive me nuts if they mortgage the 2020 draft for anyone but Haskins because if they ride with Colt I could easily see them have a top 5 pick.  Lock and Jones IMO aren't worth giving up major draft capital -- or so is my opinion before diving into either prospect so maybe my take changes soon but that's how I feel now. 

 

Their dilemma though is fascinating.

 

A.  You got a division rival poised to have their cake and eat it too by having two bad seasons in a row -- they get the best RB last year and could end up with the best QB this year and then they likely leapfrog the Redskins as the better team and one with a more exciting future to boot.  Do they try to preempt that?

I really like the sound of Haskins. He's the one guy I would probably not be super upset about a trade up for, as long as it doesn't cost what it cost to get Griffin. But let's say a trade up to 4 cost pick 15 a 2nd a 4th and a 1st next year. I'd probably do it IF they think he's the real deal obviously. But like you said, the attractiveness is not only getting your guy, but also blocking your division rival from getting theirs. I would not do that trade for anyone else. Otherwise I'd rather grab a Polite or Byron Murphy and potentially look to trade back up into the first for a Grier. Could get behind Murray at 15. Or just take a Finley or Thorson or Rypien in the 3rd as a developmental backup piece and wait on franchise QB altogether.

On 1/17/2019 at 12:21 PM, Skinsinparadise said:

 

B. Some say the Cardinals will trade the #1 pick.  And you might have to go up that high to get Haskins.  What's the draft capital to go up from 15 to 1?  Wouldn't that be more than the RG3 ransom which was just from 4 to 2. 

I don't think you'll have to trade up that high this year. Too many blue chip DL and although not a can't miss guy, a plethora of options that teams could wait on w/o giving up a ton of draft capital. Just my prediction.

On 1/17/2019 at 12:21 PM, Skinsinparadise said:

 

C.  The Dolphins (I know that team well being in South Florida) are almost the mirror image of the Skins -- mired in mediocrity for years like the Redskins with similar excuses that the Redskins have used for it.  Fans are a combination of bored or fed up -- more bored though then fed up.  Lot of talk here about them needing to jazz up the fan base with a new QB.

Definitely could see it, though they may tank for 2020 which I could also see.

On 1/17/2019 at 12:21 PM, Skinsinparadise said:

 

D.   The easy way to split the difference is to let Haskins-Murray go and trade ahead of Denver (lots of reports of Elway scouting the current QB crop like crazy in person this year) to get Jones or Lock.  The issue there is are fans really going to get jazzed about either dude?  I don't think so.  So they better be good.  And if they aren't that hot and they mortgage a 2020 first rounder and lose out on a crop that includes Fromm, Tua and Herbert.  Wow.  

Agreed.

On 1/17/2019 at 12:21 PM, Skinsinparadise said:

 

If I were in their shoes not sure what I'd do.  I guess if I thought Haskins was great (not sure if I personally think he is but don't know) then I'd do that RG3 type of deal.  I'd worry about trading up for Murray because of a number of things including his flirting with baseball that hasn't stopped from what I heard today.   No way, I'd trade a 2020 first rounder for either Jones or Lock unless I was VERY convinced they were special.    

Agreed.

 

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2 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

Otherwise I'd rather grab a Polite or Byron Murphy and potentially look to trade back up into the first for a Grier.


I would love this move. I like Grier better than anyone other than Haskins. I still have a hard time picturing a QB of Murphy's size being a success. Grier has been the best deep ball passer in the NCAA over the past 2 years. He's great under pressure. He knows where to go with the ball. Is very mobile. Was good even when he first played as a freshman at Florida. 


Polite or Murphy and Grier would really improve us. I think Grier is going to climb during the offseason though. We may wind up choosing him outright at 15. 

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@Skinsinparadise Can’t find 2018 season highlights of Winovich for some reason, but I was wrong about 2017 -  none of his (8.5) sacks came from coming free unblocked.

 

He did face a lot of run options plays though, and was frequently the one left unblocked.  Don’t know if that has any particular significance for him or if was just a testament to the strength of Michigan’s dline.  

 

 

On a separate note... I really hope the Skins shoot for Grier in the 2nd (even if it means trading up a bit).  Not even because I like Grier (which I do), but anything to avoid trading significant assets to move up (I assume there will be a bidding war going on, and I don’t trust Allen to play it cool), or to avoid Flacco or trading for McCarron.  Like you, I’m ok with Allen and Co. failing, but I don’t want them affecting the future any more than they already have (with Smith).  Can’t see them being content with a 3rd+ rounder (and McCoy) unfortunately.  I have to wonder if the best outcome would be them discovering Smith’s timetable to return is early in the season and so they avoid the qb spot (except maybe a mid-late rounder).  

 

 

Edit:  forgot to actually post this...  obviously I agree with your thought process on Grier @HardcoreZorn

:)

 

@Anselmheifer  I could definitely see Grier move up as you point out. Especially because I suspect some teams will prefer him over Jones and Lock.  

 

Edited by skinny21

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1 hour ago, HardcoreZorn said:

If they sign Flacco I may just join the Fire Bruce Allen movement. Good god that would be awful, please no. We can't afford that anyway unless it's at the expense of all other parts of the team.

 

 

Hopefully that's just a rumor, ditto the Dalton.  I can't see how they can do either deal anyway without allocating 40 million combined for the Qb position.

 

1 hour ago, HardcoreZorn said:

 

I really like the sound of Haskins. He's the one guy I would probably not be super upset about a trade up for, as long as it doesn't cost what it cost to get Griffin. But let's say a trade up to 4 cost pick 15 a 2nd a 4th and a 1st next year. I'd probably do it IF they think he's the real deal obviously. But like you said, the attractiveness is not only getting your guy, but also blocking your division rival from getting theirs.

 

 

If they are in love with Haskins I am OK with it too.  Just hate the idea of trading up for the next tier of guys if that includes giving up a 2020 first rounder.

 

1 hour ago, HardcoreZorn said:

look to trade back up into the first for a Grier.

 

I like Grier a lot, watched a bunch of WV.  But I've read so many things about the dude from people who know more about college QBs than me who say he doesn't have "it".  While some says he does.  He's playing the senior bowl so I think it could be a game changer for him one way or another.  

 

14 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

Could get behind Murray at 15. Or just take a Finley or Thorson or Rypien in the 3rd as a developmental backup piece and wait on franchise QB altogether.

 

 Some seem to think Murray escapes the top 10, who knows.  Hard for me to see though him escaping the Dolphins at 13.  They are almost as desperate as the Redskins likely are at reigniting the fan base.  I am not QB expert so reserve the right at being wrong but have been unimpressed with Finley.  Thorson just watched one game, wasn't taken by him.  Rypien is a cool story, watched only one game, looked all right.  Draft geeks seem as mixed on him as they are on Grier.  My issue with him is his frame reminds me of Colt where it looks likewise he can be split in half if he has a good hit on him.   

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21 hours ago, skinny21 said:

@Skinsinparadise  I have to disagree about a bunch of Winovich’s sacks resulting from being unblocked.  Unless you’re referring to RO plays, but of course those aren’t counted as sacks.  Looked like 1 this year and maybe 1 or 2 last year I believe.  

He also was injured the 2nd game of the year and opted to delay surgery and play through it.  

 

I do see your point about speed rushing though, he hasn’t really shown an impressive ability to really bend the edge.  On the flip side, when he was rushing wide and the qb stepped up in the pocket, I liked his ability to switch to an inside rush/disengage better than the other top prospects I’ve watched.  

 

 

Let me start with, I pumped up Winovich months ago.  So i like the dude.  I watched some Michigan last year but haven't rewatched and just looked at a highlight reel yesterday -- guess I did it too early in the morning because just rewatched it slowly 😀 and yeah a lot of tackles from him came unblocked but on closer look that was on running backs on quick hand offs-RO.  He did sack Thorson unblocked.  But yeah apparently he was targeted a bunch as the unblocked dude in RO plays so I guess in a way its even flattering that they did that too him.  He doesn't look like the most agile dude with a lot of bend but he does seem really quick off the ball, slippery -- so at least on this tape he looks faster than Kerrigan.  I wouldn't mind him in the 2nd heck according to some mocks he might slip into the third.  

 

For a team that has a lot of boring personalities, this dude I think might instantly be the Guice for the defense as for fan focus -- selling jerseys.    Good player IMO, too.  Well rounded.  My only issue with him is he's not a speed rusher.  And its not that a speed rusher is the be all and end all but on this team they'd bring a different element.   He still might be faster though than Kerrigan and Ryan Anderson. 

 

 

 

 

 

on another note, I was just looking at Daniel Jeremiah's first mock.  It's funky compared to others.  He pushes some of my man crushes in this draft relatively high except Polite isn't even in the first round, haven't seen that anywhere.  Murray and Murphy late in the first round.

 

Hockenson is top 10 -- has him going #8

Redskins take Marquise Brown at 15. 

Cody Ford #11

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001011490/article/daniel-jeremiah-mock-draft-10-kyler-murray-lands-with-patriots

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Let me start with, I pumped up Winovich months ago.  So i like the dude.  I watched some Michigan last year but haven't rewatched and just looked at a highlight reel yesterday -- guess I did it too early in the morning because just rewatched it slowly 😀 and yeah a lot of tackles from him came unblocked but on closer look that was on running backs on quick hand offs-RO.  He did sack Thorson unblocked.  But yeah apparently he was targeted a bunch as the unblocked dude in RO plays so I guess in a way its even flattering that they did that too him.  He doesn't look like the most agile dude with a lot of bend but he does seem really quick off the ball, slippery -- so at least on this tape he looks faster than Kerrigan.  I wouldn't mind him in the 2nd heck according to some mocks he might slip into the third.  

 

For a team that has a lot of boring personalities, this dude I think might instantly be the Guice for the defense as for fan focus -- selling jerseys.    Good player IMO, too.  Well rounded.  My only issue with him is he's not a speed rusher.  And its not that a speed rusher is the be all and end all but on this team they'd bring a different element.   He still might be faster though than Kerrigan and Ryan Anderson. 

 

on another note, I was just looking at Daniel Jeremiah's first mock.  It's funky compared to others.  He pushes some of my man crushes in this draft relatively high except Polite isn't even in the first round, haven't seen that anywhere.  Murray and Murphy late in the first round.

 

Hockenson is top 10 -- has him going #8

Redskins take Marquise Brown at 15. 

Cody Ford #11

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001011490/article/daniel-jeremiah-mock-draft-10-kyler-murray-lands-with-patriots

Not sure about Winovich. I'd really like to be shooting for someone that can start. We have so many places on the team that need upgrading, and I think that at in the first 3 rounds, we shouldn't be aiming for high energy backups. We've also done a poor job with those picks over the years. I'm so tired of Ryan Anderson and Trent Murphy. Transparently low upside picks. 

 

That Daniel Ford mock draft is a little interesting. I'd note that both he and Kiper have Byron Murphy falling pretty far, and neither have Will Grier in the first. Ford has Greedy Williams falling to 16. 

 

I was looking at our pass defense and trying to figure out where things fell apart. In 2017, we were the 10th rated pass defense with an opposing passer rating of 81. In 2018, we were 20th with an opposing passer rating of 95. We had one less INT in 2018 and 4 more sacks. Looking at the teams ranked above us, there doesn't seem to be any correlation in passer rating and sacks/INTs. Was it just poor corner play for us this year? Safety play? Nicholson was pretty solid last year. Was it just that opposing teams knew they could gut us with the run last year? That might explain volume/passing yards, but wouldn't seem to explain passer rating. The explanation has to be bigger than just trading Fuller, doesn't it? If that's all it is, I would think we should look very hard at investing in CB early.

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/passing/sort/quarterbackRating/position/defense/seasontype/2

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/passing/sort/quarterbackRating/position/defense/year/2017/seasontype/2

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All this talk about getting Haskins, Murray, or someone like that and for what? To draft the farm for a Heisman Trophy winner and get a guy that has talent but flops in the NFL.  RGIII is the most recent Redskins QB that fits that. Don Bebe was another, although the Redskins didn't bet the farm like they did with RGIII, but he was a talented  Heisman trophy winner out of UCLA that was draft number 1 by the Redskins and flopped. Everyone wants the dynamic, flashy QB that can create plays with his feet but that type of player has not been the formula that equals to Super Bowl wins. If it was then Fran Tarkenton, Randall Cunningham, Michael Vick, and many others would have won multiple Super Bowls. If you want a Super Bowl winning, Franchise QB then you need to have one that fits and can run the coaches offense. The QB is only part of the puzzle. If you don't have a very good offensive line and good players at the playmaking positions then a talented QB does you no good. The Redskins, IMHO, need to draft or address the OL at OG and OT in the first 2 rounds or in FA. I am talking Top talent and not someones retread or has injury issues coming out of college. Third round we need to look at a WR from a college that runs a Pro style offense or a safety. Then they should address the best players available at that point. But no matter what they do or who they draft they will not be successful if they don't have the right guys coaching them or the buy-in from the players. 

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4 minutes ago, paloosa said:

All this talk about getting Haskins, Murray, or someone like that and for what? Everyone wants the dynamic, flashy QB that can create plays with his feet but that type of player has not been the formula that equals to Super Bowl wins. If it was then Fran Tarkenton, Randall Cunningham, Michael Vick, and many others would have won multiple Super Bowls. If you want a Super Bowl winning, Franchise QB then you need to have one that fits and can run the coaches offense. 


You're not describing Haskins here at all. He isn't a flashy mobile QB. He's a pro-style pocket QB that has ideal size, is proficient in quickly reading a defense and distributing the ball, and has a great arm. 

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@Skinsinparadise  I meant to mention in my previous post that I can understand 1) your desire for a speed rusher (I pushed for returning Galette throughout the season and have talked about wanting an OLB, preferably one with a lot of speed) and 2) your thought that Winovich doesn’t fit the bill as well as some others.  So I totally get it.  I was mostly pushing back against the notion that his production was not as much a product of his talent.  15 is a bit rich for Winovich if we don’t know how well he can bend the edge, and particularly given he’s mocked in the 2nd or 3rd.  On the flip side, if he is fairly comparable to Matthews, people might be selling him short.  Totally agree about his character/attitude - seems like an infectious type that could really pump the D up (which we could use).  I can see the ‘Kerrigan, but faster’ angle and I agree.  

 

@AnselmheiferI get your point, but I’d bet Winovich is far from a glorified backup caliber like Anderson.  He’s a monster that I believe would be an immediate upgrade from the Anderson/Smith/Murphy types we’ve trotted out.  He strikes me as faster, more relentless, meaner and a better technician than those guys.  Maybe better to say he’s got all of the positive qualities of those guys with added quickness and fieriness.  

 

As to your point about the pass defense/secondary, yeah, I don’t think it was about our front, except maybe Manusky didn’t want to blitz as much given our coverage issues.   Our corners were lackluster and our ILBs had coverage deficiencies.  As I said, I think Manusky tried to put as many bodies in coverage as he could, and this (in part) affected our run D.  Losing Fuller hurt badly - he played the receiver screens and slants like a champ.  To also lose Breeland clearly made the secondary worse.  Breeland wasn’t a great player for us, but he allowed Dunbar to play as a sub, and he was clearly ahead of where Moreau was at this year.  Corner in the first would be a big help.  Here’s hoping the young guys take a big step forward. 

 

@paloosa - regarding the qbs, I think you’re selling Haskins short there.  Not saying I want to trade up for him (especially if we have to move into the top 5, and even more so if we get caught in a bidding war for him), but he’s a very smart qb, a quick study, and a good passer (or better).  He can use his legs, but doesn’t rely on them (beyond how most franchise types use their legs).  

Edited by skinny21

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