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Official 2018 Redskins Training Camp/Preseason Thread


thesubmittedone

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Just now, MassSkinsFan said:

 

In watching film of our OL last season he stood out as particularly bad. He stunk to high heaven.

 

Agree. I'm pretty sure I could bull rush TJ Clemmings, and I'm 5'7" and 165.

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4 minutes ago, MassSkinsFan said:

 

In watching film of our OL last season he stood out as particularly bad. He stunk to high heaven.

 

yet they must have seen something in him cause they brought him back

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8 minutes ago, carex said:

 

yet they must have seen something in him cause they brought him back

 

Or they are still not finding anyone better.

 

I encourage you to find the games he played and watch his performance. I'm not Coach Callahan, but you don't need to be an NFL coach to see the major drop-off in performance between guys like Nsekhe, Cujo, and even Lauvao, and TJ Clemmings. 

 

I wish he were a lot better.

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Rookie report: Running back Derrius Guice took the bulk of the first team reps, but with two starters on the offensive line still sidelined (Trent Williams and Morgan Moses), the holes weren't always there. He did show some strong cuts and, even though they weren't in pads, you could see him wanting to seek out contact at the end of runs. One other rookie played a part in slowing him at times -- first-round nose tackle Daron Payne. He's a big fella and hard to move inside. He stuffed one hole moving laterally.

John Keim, ESPN Staff Writer2h ago

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Quarterback Alex Smith showed some of why he's been an effective quarterback in recent years. In his first camp practice with the Redskins, he used his legs often on bootlegs and also moving out of the pocket. But he showed his accuracy and decision-making, too. On one 10-yard back-shoulder throw to receiver Josh Doctson, corner Josh Norman had it well-defended. But the ball arrived as soon as Doctson turned around. Norman had no chance.

John Keim, ESPN Staff Writer2h ago

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Must read from Brewer:

 

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29 minutes ago, thesubmittedone said:

Must read from Brewer

 

Good article by Brewer. He makes some good points--especially about the Eagles rebuild--but makes some assumptions that he passes off as facts: namely Derwin James being an elite talent. I would have been fine with either him or Payne, but just jumping to the conclusion that James is a more explosive talent molds the facts to fit his story. Fact is they're both rookies and have the potential to be stars...and busts. The Redskins desperately needed to shore up their lines. Picks like Allen, Payne, and Scherff do just that.

 

He also completely overlooks the most exciting rookie in a long time for the Skins: Derrius Guice, who he doesn't mention, at all. He is an "explosive talent" that is missing. They've peddled UDFAs and mid-to-late round picks at RB, none of which have the talent Guice has. if produces like Alvin Kamara, Kareem Hunt, or Leonard Fournette did, I think the Skins will do well.

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1 hour ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

Good article by Brewer. He makes some good points--especially about the Eagles rebuild--but makes some assumptions that he passes off as facts: namely Derwin James being an elite talent. I would have been fine with either him or Payne, but just jumping to the conclusion that James is a more explosive talent molds the facts to fit his story. Fact is they're both rookies and have the potential to be stars...and busts. The Redskins desperately needed to shore up their lines. Picks like Allen, Payne, and Scherff do just that.

 

He also completely overlooks the most exciting rookie in a long time for the Skins: Derrius Guice, who he doesn't mention, at all. He is an "explosive talent" that is missing. They've peddled UDFAs and mid-to-late round picks at RB, none of which have the talent Guice has. if produces like Alvin Kamara, Kareem Hunt, or Leonard Fournette did, I think the Skins will do well.

 

Yeah, I don’t focus on that as much as I focus on the general point. It harkens back to the debate of BPA versus need in the draft, as well as the Bruce Allen approach to FA where you’re getting more bargain-bin players for a price (safer, can move on if it doesn’t work out) versus one stud for that same price (hurts cap-wise if you miss, but more potential for a game changer). 

 

It’s a difficult balance to strike, but to Brewer’s point, that’s the difference between organizations that have leadership that excel at team-building versus those that don’t. 

 

Pertaining to Derwin James, there was talk that they actually had both him and Tremaine Edmunds higher than Payne on their board when they selected. Jay himself wanted Edmunds according to some. 

 

For me, the issue with that is not that Payne is a lesser player, we don’t know that until the bullets fly. But it’s ALWAYS the wrong way to go about team-building.

 

Basically, it’s not Payne versus James/Edmunds. It’s: 

 

Payne (and reaching for him over other players your scouts ranked higher because you have to fill a need)

 

VS.

 

FA signing/trade acquistion at Dline (either in 2017 offseason or this one, to where you don’t feel like you have to fill a need) + James/Edmunds. 

 

There is more nuance here to be discussed, especially when it comes to team-building. It’s not simple. 

 

One can also introduce just how much of a factor the atrocious resource management at QB the last three years has had an effect on how aggressive they were able to be in FA. All of it is intricately linked and it’s hard to delve into in just one post. :) 

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If we drafted Derwin James, we'd cut Swearinger.  The supposed upgrade from Swearinger to Derwin compared with Hood to Payne has to factor in.  Positional depth etc.  At what point in their rookie contract is the prospect going to "get it" and start producing?  With Edmunds, that likely wouldn't happen his rookie season.  Would it happen in his 2nd year?  Edmunds is more talented than Derwin or Payne, but far more unpolished.

 

So it's not just Person A's talent vs Person B's talent.  It's also time expected to produce.  We have a salary cap, so how much money is invested in a position matters.  That's part of the biggest criticism with the Giants taking Saquon Barkley at 2nd overall.

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32 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

Good article by Brewer. He makes some good points--especially about the Eagles rebuild--but makes some assumptions that he passes off as facts: namely Derwin James being an elite talent. I would have been fine with either him or Payne, but just jumping to the conclusion that James is a more explosive talent molds the facts to fit his story. Fact is they're both rookies and have the potential to be stars...and busts. The Redskins desperately needed to shore up their lines. Picks like Allen, Payne, and Scherff do just that.

 

Thing is, he is really just highlighting the fact that planning is easy, it is the execution that makes a difference.  Hell, it would appear that Bobby Beathard built the 1980s Redskins the wrong way. 

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36 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

If we drafted Derwin James, we'd cut Swearinger.  The supposed upgrade from Swearinger to Derwin compared with Hood to Payne has to factor in.  Positional depth etc.  At what point in their rookie contract is the prospect going to "get it" and start producing?  With Edmunds, that likely wouldn't happen his rookie season.  Would it happen in his 2nd year?  Edmunds is more talented than Derwin or Payne, but far more unpolished.

 

So it's not just Person A's talent vs Person B's talent.  It's also time expected to produce.  We have a salary cap, so how much money is invested in a position matters.  That's part of the biggest criticism with the Giants taking Saquon Barkley at 2nd overall.

 

I’m not going to touch on Swearinger vs. James and all that since it’s total speculation on your end. 

 

But your entire post is about advocating drafting for need. The topic of BPA vs. Need has been killed, so I’m not going to get into it. But I’ll just say there’s an easy refutation to every point made here and that I heavily disagree with weighing need when drafting as much as you have here. There’s so much evidence out there showing just how harmful it is. 

 

As for Edmunds, if your scouts have him ranked higher, that means you believe he’s going to be more productive over the course of his career. You shouldn’t be drafting with short-sightedness, drafting is about the future as much, if not more, as it is about the present. Whether or not he takes longer to produce shouldn’t be anywhere near as big a factor as whether or not he’ll be the better player. 

 

If, say, Payne is an immediate contributor at a position of need, plays well and impacts the team solidly throughout his career, but Edmunds takes a year to hit his stride and ends up having an HOF-level career, do you look back and say, “thank God we drafted Payne instead, his production in 2018 was vital!” 

 

Heck no! Maybe if we win a Super Bowl that year and he played a major role. But otherwise you look at that and say our scouts had Edmunds higher for a reason, shouldn’t have weighed in need as much there. 

 

All of this, however, is not about these players. They’re just recent examples, nothing more. It’s about the right philosophy and approach to team building. Payne could end up being the best player out of all of them. But it wouldn’t change the danger involved in how they approached drafting him, it’d be that they lucked out versus being smart. And, as they say, better to be lucky than good at times, right? Just don’t want that to be what they rely on organizationally. 

 

 Anyway, I’m happy we’ve spent two first rounders on Dline the last two years. I’m crazy about Dline. Maybe if I was making the board myself, I’d have Payne higher just by virtue of his position, having nothing to do with need. And I’m ecstatic that the talk thus far has been that Payne looks great. You’re not going to find anyone who’s advocated for investing on the Dline more than me on this board. 

 

This is about general team-building principles and resource management. The routes taken to arrive to the roster as is have plenty of questionable areas, it’s okay to discuss them. Were there ways for getting to the level the roster is at right now much faster and possibly even at a higher level? Absolutely. 

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Derrius Guice spent 45 minutes after practice signing autographs for fans. 

 

The first time I met Guice, a few days after he was drafted, he signed for tons of fans before security told him to move on. The guy just has such a good heart. He's on CBS locally right now talking about how much the fans mean to him. That's why he spends so much time signing autographs. Really hope the hype on him plays out. 

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Was this posted?...didn't see it on the last page but I'm on my phone and the connection blows here...anyway, some guy named Kennedy Paynter tweeted:

 

"Norman a step late on the pick with players later saying ‘It ain’t Kirk throwin the ball no more JNo! He gone!’ Kirk bashing a theme here on the players’ sideline at #Redskins training camp."

 

i don't know how I should process that lol...

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39 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

Was this posted?...didn't see it on the last page but I'm on my phone and the connection blows here...anyway, some guy named Kennedy Paynter tweeted:

 

"Norman a step late on the pick with players later saying ‘It ain’t Kirk throwin the ball no more JNo! He gone!’ Kirk bashing a theme here on the players’ sideline at #Redskins training camp."

 

i don't know how I should process that lol...

It's a pretty clear indication that many players felt like Kirk was mailing it in last year just waiting for his big payday from another team.  He wasn't a leader, and I think that is the quality that Alex Smith will bring like no one we've had in quite a while.

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The fact that a resident insider suggested that Jay wanted Edmunds to me was the kicker for me liking but not loving the Payne pick. Doug himself flat out said that the Payne pick wasn't one that the full room agreed on. 

 

For me none of it has anything to do with my feelings about Payne or the DT position.  For the record I love Alabama players and think the DT position is the be all and end all as I've been touting for years in both the FA thread and draft thread.   So i am ok with the hype of hey its D line and hey its Alabama.  But I am a big BPA guy and I think one of the teams weaknesses is not having enough marquee players. 

 

To me if Edmonds or James end up being beasts and Payne ends up not on par then I think its a missed opportunity.  The year we took Carols Rodgers because we need a CB and passed on guys like Ware in the process wasn't that great of a move -- and that's not because Carlos was a bad player.  He was a good player.  But they could have done better.

 

As for Payne, just via my amateur eye I wasn't blown away by the dude in the games I watched but I did like him.  I don't feel about him the way I do on the flier FAs we've had at DT -- he's an upgrade on that so I dig the pick from that perspective.   I think he's an upgrade on the crap we've had at NT.

 

But love it if the dude ends up a beast.  He has certainly the ingredients to be that -- will see.  I take all the training camp stuff with a grain of salt.  There is a given degree of positive buzz that comes in the summer -- not all of it pans out.  Remember how RG3 was supposedly according to some killing it in the 2014 camp.  And Pryor was uncoverable in camp.  Also you always have some token young players who supposedly are burning it up some of which ultimately don't even make the squad. 

 

 

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I agree, all the training camp vids are worthless, as Redskins fans we should know that by now.  I'm looking at preseason game 1 and praying that Jay doesn't follow the standard preseason coaching protocol, I hope he lets these guys play a bit more in those first 2 games.

 

 

 

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This BPA vs. need Payne discussion is a very good read, but probably belongs in a different thread from the Training Camp thread, right? As the offseason wraps up it will be good to know that when this thread is a-rockin', you can come a-knockin'...for chatter related to training camp. Just my opinion, I get that it is tangentially related to discussion about our rookies/roster this time of year

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6 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

This BPA vs. need Payne discussion is a very good read, but probably belongs in a different thread from the Training Camp thread, right?

 

Agreed. It's pretty much a rehash of the Draft Thread, so no sense is chasing tails.

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I just want to take a second and acknowledge Rob Kelley, with the coming (if not already transpired) ascension of Guice as our stud RB starter he will quickly be forgotten. 

 

We never really talk about this, but the fact that this random guy just had an 800/7 rushing season in the NFL is insane...on a historically unlikely level. And that speaks to his work ethic, especially considering he had competition from a 4th round RB pick last year in Perine who should have run away with the job. 

 

I'm not joking when I use the phrase "historically unlikely". 

 

Rob Kelley is a 2nd percentile athlete in the NFL. Yes, that number is correct. 

Rob Kelley had like, 200-300 yards rushing his senior year at Tulane, with a sub-4.0 YPC. 

He was not drafted. 

It is crazy he even got a chance in the NFL. 

 

This guy was more unlikely to ever start an NFL game than any other underdog RB we've had in recent memory, I'd argue. He had no 5-star pedigree like over-hyped flameouts Lache Seastruck and Keith Marshall. He had no college production like Alfred Morris or Evan Royster. Its almost unbelievable he even received a damn camp invite in the first place.

 

Here's to you, Rob Kelley. You are literally what training camp fan favorite underdog success stories are made of, and possibly one of the best examples ever. He and guys like him in the NFL are the reason why training camp is such a fun follow for football fans--a starter can be born any moment, with enough hard work, or the right combination of injuries and scheme, or any other number of factors. Anyone invited to an NFL camp has a shot to start an NFL game some day. 

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1 minute ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

I am rooting for Rob to beat out Perine, actually.

I also expect him to be faster, now that he's slimmed down so much. And that's just referring to his haircut.

 

Oh I don't expect Rob to be off the roster, I expect him to be the primary backup to Guice I think. I just wanted to recognize his unlikely status as an NFL starter last year as we're getting caught up in the Guice hype. His story is seriously crazy. 

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