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Is this the most talented yet misused defensive front we've had in years?


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Funny enough I recall the one time I met Scot one of my first questions to him is do you even bother to scout a guy like Jonathan Allen since he's going ahead of their pick.  His answer was yes.

 

On the draft thread on draft day in 2017 where it was being discussed that he might drop out of the top 10 -- I recall saying I'd trade up for the dude.  I think Allen if healthy might be the top player on defense.  I am not nearly as in love with Payne but think he's certainly an upgrade at nose.  Tomsula has practically screamed this offseason that Ziggy isn't a true nose but he's more a DE -- so I'll take him at his word.

 

So I'd guess playing 4-3 it will be.  Allen, Ioannidis, Kerrigan, P. Smith.  At 3-4.  McGee, Payne, Allen, Kerrigan, P. Smith. 

 

Hood and Settle subbing in.    Looks like McGee according to Finlay might not be ready to start the season or if he does might start slowly.  If so wonder who subs for him?  

 

As for this being an elite D line.  I don't know.  To me Allen is the big X factor.  If he's healthy than maybe.  We got gashed not just with inside runs but also via the outside zone.  So the nose tackle won't be the be all and and all -- our DE's and OLBs need to do their part, too.  

 

Lets say Payne is this beast that some on the board say he is -- and hope they are right -- teams might just stick to outside runs.  What made me think of that some was re-watching the Redskins-Giants game recently on coaches tape.   Redskins ran outside zone like crazy in that game -- I gather they decided not to mess much with Damon Harrison on the inside. 

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26 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

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So I'd guess playing 4-3 it will be.  Allen, Ioannidis, Kerrigan, P. Smith.  At 3-4.  McGee, Payne, Allen, Kerrigan, P. Smith. 

 

Hood and Settle subbing in.    Looks like McGee according to Finlay might not be ready to start the season or if he does might start slowly.  If so wonder who subs for him?  

 

As for this being an elite D line.  I don't know.  To me Allen is the big X factor.  If he's healthy than maybe.  We got gashed not just with inside runs but also via the outside zone.  So the nose tackle won't be the be all and and all -- our DE's and OLBs need to do their part, too.  

 

Lets say Payne is this beast that some on the board say he is -- and hope they are right -- teams might just stick to outside runs.  What made me think of that some was re-watching the Redskins-Giants game recently on coaches tape.   Redskins ran outside zone like crazy in that game -- I gather they decided not to mess much with Damon Harrison on the inside. 

 

I agree with your 4-3, But not the 3-4. Not sure how you take Ioannidis off the field for McGee on key downs. Maybe as a sub. 

 

As for teams going outside if the middle is stuffed - there is a difference between being able to run outside because the inside is open and trying to go outside because you are getting shut down inside. I do not remember the team being too successful running outside on the Giants.  It was just better than the middle. 

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1 hour ago, goskins10 said:

 

I agree with your 4-3, But not the 3-4. Not sure how you take Ioannidis off the field for McGee on key downs. Maybe as a sub. 

 

 

Yea I see the 3-4 as Ioannidis, Payne, Allen up front.  I'm really looking forward to watching Payne and Ioannidis this year.  I really want to believe that Payne is a stud.  I have no idea why there are so many doubts about him.  I think a lot of Redskins fans wanted Vita Vea.

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On 6/12/2018 at 10:24 PM, Vanguard said:

 

I am an Ioannidis enthusiast.   He's my third or fourth favorite player.  You put it perfectly when you emphasize his "motor."  If he can duplicate last season, I'll be satisfied.  If he improves on last season, I'm starting an Ioannidis pro bowl campaign.

 

Question though, do you think Ioannidis will start in the 3-4.  Or will it be Allen, Payne, McGee.  Or is it too soon to say?

Not sure if he'll start but i definitely think he could beat McGee out. I also think we'll copy what the Eagles are doing and rotate the guys up front in from play to play so he'll be in the mix regardless if he starts.

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4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Lets say Payne is this beast that some on the board say he is -- and hope they are right -- teams might just stick to outside runs.  What made me think of that some was re-watching the Redskins-Giants game recently on coaches tape.   Redskins ran outside zone like crazy in that game -- I gather they decided not to mess much with Damon Harrison on the inside. 

If teams decide to give up going for inside power/zone running, and would rather race to the outside that is where Zach Brown is elite. He has problems in coverage, but when it comes to sideline to sideline speed and tackling he is as good as there is in the NFL. 

 

I was also surprised they stuck it out with payne in the draft when other defenders slipped, but he is very young and has extremely good measurables. If he had been in veas college schedule, and was 3 years older than he is, he most likely would have been a dominant disruptor. 

 

The more I read and watched of him, most importantly what I read really think he will be a jack of all trades Dlineman who is scary strong and is very young. A guy who can plug the middle and jump off the line extremely fast. 

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11 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

I agree with your 4-3, But not the 3-4. Not sure how you take Ioannidis off the field for McGee on key downs. Maybe as a sub. 

 

As for teams going outside if the middle is stuffed - there is a difference between being able to run outside because the inside is open and trying to go outside because you are getting shut down inside. I do not remember the team being too successful running outside on the Giants.  It was just better than the middle. 

 

I didn't chart every game but I recall when everyone was healthy McGee seem to be playing more in 3-4 on the left side at least in the games I watched as opposed to Ionnaidis.  I recall one game when both Allen and Ioannidis sat most of the 3-4 sets.  McGee played a lot in the 3-4 sets at LDE -- same position that Ionnaidis played. 

 

I've mentioned this earlier in a thread but when you watch snap after snap and just focus on the D line -- we are a 4-2-5 team primarily playing in the nickel.  So Ionnandis and Allen are mostly on the field in that set.   Tomsula likes to rotate.  The rotation is often in the form of 4-2-5 lineup versus 3-4 lineup.    In 3-4, you often saw Hood, McGee, McClain.

 

So I'd be really surprised that he rides Ionnaidis so hard that he's the prime guy in for both 3-4 and 4-2-5 sets -- considering that he was almost always in 4-2-5 sets.  So if I was a betting man I'd guess Ionnaidis isn't the prime starter at 3-4. Will see.   I put in Allen in both sets just because I assume he will be so dominant they can't take him out -- but even Allen when healthy was subbed out at times last season and from what I observed that the times he was given a breather was often when they went into 3-4 sets.

 

After watching snap after snap at that position, I've stopped really thinking about the 3-4 that much.  Cooley liked to talk about it in his film review -- but you see what he means real quick where in certain games they play so many snaps without going 3-4 that when they finally run a snap or two that way it gets your attention. 

 

So the 3-4 lineup to me is like the backup lineup -- in theory we are a 3-4 team so we look at the lineup that way.  But in practice to me the 3-4 is more of the change of piece novelty lineup versus the lead.   And that's just because of how 11 personnel is now so dominant in offenses.

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4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I didn't chart every game but I recall when everyone was healthy McGee seem to be playing more in 3-4 on the left side at least in the games I watched as opposed to Ionnaidis.  I recall one game when both Allen and Ioannidis sat most of the 3-4 sets.  McGee played a lot in the 3-4 sets at LDE -- same position that Ionnaidis played. 

 

I've mentioned this earlier in a thread but when you watch snap after snap and just focus on the D line -- we are a 4-2-5 team primarily playing in the nickel.  So Ionnandis and Allen are mostly on the field in that set.   Tomsula likes to rotate.  The rotation is often in the form of 4-2-5 lineup versus 3-4 lineup.    In 3-4, you often saw Hood, McGee, McClain.

 

So I'd be really surprised that he rides Ionnaidis so hard that he's the prime guy in for both 3-4 and 4-2-5 sets -- considering that he was almost always in 4-2-5 sets.  So if I was a betting man I'd guess Ionnaidis isn't the prime starter at 3-4. Will see.   I put in Allen in both sets just because I assume he will be so dominant they can't take him out -- but even Allen when healthy was subbed out at times last season and from what I observed that the times he was given a breather was often when they went into 3-4 sets.

 

After watching snap after snap at that position, I've stopped really thinking about the 3-4 that much.  Cooley liked to talk about it in his film review -- but you see what he means real quick where in certain games they play so many snaps without going 3-4 that when they finally run a snap or two that way it gets your attention. 

 

So the 3-4 lineup to me is like the backup lineup -- in theory we are a 3-4 team so we look at the lineup that way.  But in practice to me the 3-4 is more of the change of piece novelty lineup versus the lead.   And that's just because of how 11 personnel is now so dominant in offenses.

 

I get all that. Still, I am not sure what they did last year will be the same this year. If they use that approach - i would prefer to see Hood at DE instead of McGee. But that's just me. Also, on key downs I will would think that our best 3 DL will likely be Ioannidis, Payne, and Allen. But that's just me. 

 

In general I am pretty excited about the potential. It is just potential at this point. But it's hard to argue with how the Dline has been built - finally....  :-)  

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47 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

I get all that. Still, I am not sure what they did last year will be the same this year. If they use that approach - i would prefer to see Hood at DE instead of McGee. But that's just me. 

 

Sure, not stating a personal preference on my end.  I just recall McGee being a stalwart at L-DE in the 3-4 last year.  Does Hood replace him?  Maybe?

 

47 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

Also, on key downs I will would think that our best 3 DL will likely be Ioannidis, Payne, and Allen. But that's just me. 

 

Last year they seem to have a different lineup (often but not always) when they went 3-4 versus 4-2-5 and I think some of that had to do with rotating guys. I saw Ionnadis in particular sitting out a lot of 3-4 snaps before the injuries.  Will see if that changes.  Maybe it does.  They play a lot more 4-2-5 so  Allen-Ionnaidis-P. Smith-Kerrigan is the real lineup we will see the most. 

 

When they shift to 3-4.  Payne seems a given at nose.  And I'd guess Allen-Ionnaidis-McGee-Hood-Settle rotate.  My point is I didn't see a heck of a lot of rotation in 4-2-5.  But saw the rotation in 3-4, ditto at end -- that's when Tomsula brought in the big guys at NT-DE.  So if he wants to keep guys fresh my guess is we don't see a lot of Ionnaidis in the 3-4 since he plays almost every snap in the 4-2-5.  But who knows?  will see.  My opinion is purely based on what I noticed in the games I watched last year.   

 

Or said differently, the 3-4 is often the run stopping defense.  The 4-2-5 is often the pass rushing defense.  If you want to sub in guys to keep them free -- are we subbing in Hood and McGee in the 4-2-5 or the 3-4?  It would be the 3-4 primarily.  And that's pretty much what I noticed last year.

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31 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Sure, not stating a personal preference on my end.  I just recall McGee being a stalwart at L-DE in the 3-4 last year.  Does Hood replace him?  Maybe?

 

 

Last year they seem to have a different lineup (often but not always) when they went 3-4 versus 4-2-5 and I think some of that had to do with rotating guys. I saw Ionnadis in particular sitting out a lot of 3-4 snaps before the injuries.  Will see if that changes.  Maybe it does.  They play a lot more 4-2-5 so  Allen-Ionnaidis-P. Smith-Kerrigan is the real lineup we will see the most. 

 

When they shift to 3-4.  Payne seems a given at nose.  And I'd guess Allen-Ionnaidis-McGee-Hood-Settle rotate.  My point is I didn't see a heck of a lot of rotation in 4-2-5.  But saw the rotation in 3-4, ditto at end -- that's when Tomsula brought in the big guys at NT-DE.  So if he wants to keep guys fresh my guess is we don't see a lot of Ionnaidis in the 3-4 since he plays almost every snap in the 4-2-5.  But who knows?  will see.  My opinion is purely based on what I noticed in the games I watched last year.   

 

Or said differently, the 3-4 is often the run stopping defense.  The 4-2-5 is often the pass rushing defense.  If you want to sub in guys to keep them free -- are we subbing in Hood and McGee in the 4-2-5 or the 3-4?  It would be the 3-4 primarily.  And that's pretty much what I noticed last year.

 

I guess where I am getting hung up is why you draft a NT in the 1st rd if you only plan to use him for a a few downs. A concern that many of us had when the Payne pick was made. I would expect Payne to force them to get him on the field more. Who loses snaps? I am not sure. Preston Smith? I keep getting this feeling they are preparing to move on from him. I could see both Hood and Payne getting snaps (at different times) there actually. Maybe keeping Preston at OLB? It will be interesting. 

 

In the end it probably will not matter who is the named starter or base starters so it's probably a moot discussion. There should be enough depth to keep guys coming in and out so they are fresh at the end of games. 

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10 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

I guess where I am getting hung up is why you draft a NT in the 1st rd if you only plan to use him for a a few downs. A concern that many of us had when the Payne pick was made. 

 

That's Cooley's line about the pick ironically.  I'd presume the hope is when they are in their base -- the nose stops the run -- often on first down -- so a nose could help set the tone on that front.   Ditto Goal lines.  Ditto 3rd and short.  I'd presume their best hope is Payne shows some pass rush ability and subs for Allen and Ionnaidis at times at DE.

 

10 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

I would expect Payne to force them to get him on the field more. Who loses snaps? I am not sure. Preston Smith? I keep getting this feeling they are preparing to move on from him.

 

Judging by what I saw last year they almost always keep their OLBs in whether its 4-2-5 or 3-4.  So if Preston for example is out, it meant that Ryan Anderson or Gallette was in.  So I doubt Payne subs for Preston.  Yeah I wonder too about whether Preston is here after this season -- seems like the perfect storm to lose him as I mentioned in the FA thread -- but I hope am wrong.  

 

10 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

In the end it probably will not matter who is the named starter or base starters so it's probably a moot discussion. There should be enough depth to keep guys coming in and out so they are fresh at the end of games. 

 

Yeah I agree, that's supposedly part of the Eagles success with their D line -- rotate, keep guys fresh. 

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10 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I bet not.  I bet Ionnaidis gets the nod over him.  Payne is the nose.   Will see.

 

Cant say I'm fussed either way, Ionnaidis is highly regarded. Just seems like Payne was drafted to pair with Allen. Nose on a three man front, tackle on a four man front. His motor will keep him in, I would suggest Allen gets more of a breather.

 

Again, non fussed either way, three damn good players.

 

Hood and McGee suck. We need one more to set the group up imo.

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I actually think you could see Payne, Settle and Allen on the line at one time. Talk about a true run stopping force! Supposedly Payne was hyped as being able to play anywhere on the line due to his agility and quickness, while Settle is a more prototypical nose especially on run downs. 

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20 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

 

Cant say I'm fussed either way, Ionnaidis is highly regarded. Just seems like Payne was drafted to pair with Allen. Nose on a three man front, tackle on a four man front. His motor will keep him in, I would suggest Allen gets more of a breather.

 

Again, non fussed either way, three damn good players.

 

Hood and McGee suck. We need one more to set the group up imo.

 

I like Ioannaidis a lot -- I think he's becoming a force.  I'd be surprised if Payne though overtakes him when they play 4 lineman which will be most of the time.  If Payne overtakes Ioannaidis then he'd likely be a monster pass rusher and if so then awesome.  For now, I'd be happy with just a monster run stopper. 

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12 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

I get all that. Still, I am not sure what they did last year will be the same this year. If they use that approach - i would prefer to see Hood at DE instead of McGee. But that's just me. Also, on key downs I will would think that our best 3 DL will likely be Ioannidis, Payne, and Allen. But that's just me. 

 

In general I am pretty excited about the potential. It is just potential at this point. But it's hard to argue with how the Dline has been built - finally....  :-)  

 

I'm sorry, but I can't wrap my head around why you're high on Hood.  The guy has had one sack in two years with the Redskins.  He's not a particularly good run stopper either.

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6 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

 

I'm sorry, but I can't wrap my head around why you're high on Hood.  The guy has had one sack in two years with the Redskins.  He's not a particularly good run stopper either.

 

Not sure how wanting him over Stacy McGee is being "high" on him. I do like him as depth better than McGee. Tomsula likes him a lot. He has been being played out of position, especially last year due to injuries. So of course his numbers have suffered. He is not a starter but is a solid depth player at this point. He is also very well respected by the other players, especially the young guys and is good mentor since he has been with the team several years now. You need guys like that on the team.

 

 

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Payne and Settle have played zero NFL games. Allen has played 5. McGee, Lanier and Hood are "just guys."  Ioannaidis is solid and getting better. Let's see how these guy play together for a few games and then judge them. 

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As of now, I’d rank the dlinemen something like this...

 

Vs pass:

1.  Ioannidas 

2. Allen

3. Lanier

4. Taylor

5. Settle

6. Payne 

7. Hood/McGee

 

Vs run:

1. Allen

2. Taylor/Payne 

3. McGee

4. Settle

5. Hood/Ioannidas

6. Lanier

 

This list is fluid obviously, as Payne, Settle, Ioannidas and Lanier have room to improve (so does Allen, but he’s already at/near the top).  Hood could also see a touch of improvement playing in a role more suited to him, assuming he makes the team.  

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18 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

Not sure how wanting him over Stacy McGee is being "high" on him. I do like him as depth better than McGee. Tomsula likes him a lot. He has been being played out of position, especially last year due to injuries. So of course his numbers have suffered. He is not a starter but is a solid depth player at this point. He is also very well respected by the other players, especially the young guys and is good mentor since he has been with the team several years now. You need guys like that on the team.

 

 

 

The best player should play.  I think you have enough leaders.  They traded away a good locker room leader on the line in Chris Baker.  How important is it then?  If he's better than McGee, start him.  If he's not, I'm not sure why he's there.

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