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Is this the most talented yet misused defensive front we've had in years?


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1 hour ago, Morneblade said:

 

 Like playing Hood to NT? Versatile does not equate good. I get what you are saying, but if you're doing something that vast majority of the time, it's smart to get the guys that do that WELL, not just be able to do it..........kinda.

 

Considering it's now who, Sam Bradford out there, and has non-moble he is, that might make a big difference if we get push up the middle.

 

 

Lol that was because we didnt have a choice, not because he had a matchup advantage.

 

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8 hours ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

I dont think we are that far off... 

 

I don't think we've truly gone after 3-4 type players....  Guys like Trent Murphy at DE, is not a recipe for a functional 3-4.  Converted OLBs, at least in my personal opinion, do not make good 3-4 DEs.  They make really good 4-3 DEs... but not so much in the 3-4.... and we've been doing it all the way up til last year with Trent Murphy.  I actually absolutely agree with your final statement about the 'REAL' 4-3 being our 'base.'  My point is why do people still want to criticize the team for running a 'base' 3-4, when we really dont.  We don't have the personnel for it, and we don't run it very often.  For all intents and purposes, we have a 4-3 defense, based on the formations we run, and the players we have... it's just not listed on the team website.  

 

Yes the focus is swinging back to the running game, but not like it was before.  This past year we had 9 RBs get over 1000 yards rushing.... 

 

1 Kareem Hunt, RB KC 272 1,327 4.9 69 12 8 82.9 1 60
2 Todd Gurley II, RB LAR 279 1,305 4.7 57 8 13 87.0 5 66
3 Le'Veon Bell, RB PIT 321 1,291 4.0 27 3 9 86.1 2 74
4 LeSean McCoy, RB BUF 287 1,138 4.0 48 12 6 71.1 3 55
5 Mark Ingram II, RB NO 230 1,124 4.9 72 11 12 70.3 2 50
6 Jordan Howard, RB CHI 276 1,122 4.1 53 5 9 70.1 1 61
7 Melvin Gordon, RB LAC 284 1,105 3.9 87 5 8 69.1 1 58
8 Leonard Fournette, RB JAX 268 1,040 3.9 90 4 9 80.0 2 46
9 C.J. Anderson, RB DEN 245 1,007 4.1 40 7 3 62.9 1 47

 

 

7/9 of those guys are 2 dimensional backs.  Ingram wasn't leaned on in the passing game as much because he had Kimara, and Howard only had 125 receiving yards.  More and more of the 'bellcow' guys have to be multidimensional.  The days of the ground and pound are gone, so the ability account for the RB so much in the passing game is imperative.  Yes the teams running the ball are doing WELL, that's a fact of life.  Run the ball, stop the run, more often than not you're going to be in a position to compete.  Fail in either of those two places and usually you're on your heels.  

 

The old school mentality of a 3-4 may have lent itself to more speed, but with the versatility now along the D-line, and the fact that you can have a lineup like 


Kerrigan / Allen / Ioannidis / Smith...

 

thats a REALLY fast D-line... match that with the MLB like Brown, you can really cover sideline to sideline in a hurry...  

kudos for saying "for all intents and purposes" correctly so many people incorrectly say intense

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2 hours ago, skinsfan35yrs. said:

kudos for saying "for all intents and purposes" correctly so many people incorrectly say intense

I hole-hardedly agree, but allow me to play doubles advocate here for a moment. For all intensive purposes I think you are wrong. In an age where false morals are a diamond dozen, true virtues are a blessing in the skies. We often put our false morality on a petal stool like a bunch of pre-Madonnas, but you all seem to be taking something very valuable for granite. So I ask of you to mustard up all the strength you can because it is a doggy dog world out there. Although there is some merit to what you are saying it seems like you have a huge ship on your shoulder. In your argument you seem to throw everything in but the kids Nsync, and even though you are having a feel day with this I am here to bring you back into reality. I have a sick sense when it comes to these types of things. It is almost spooky, because I cannot turn a blonde eye to these glaring flaws in your rhetoric. I have zero taller ants when it comes to people spouting out hate in the name of moral righteousness. You just need to remember what comes around is all around, and when supply and command fails you will be the first to go. Make my words, when you get down to brass stacks it doesn't take rocket appliances to get two birds stoned at once. It's clear who makes the pants in this relationship, and sometimes you just have to swallow your prize and accept the facts. You might have to come to this conclusion through denial and error but I swear on my mother's mating name that when you put the petal to the medal you will pass with flying carpets like it's a peach of cake.

:redskins-3908:

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Just saw this fact (in bold):

 

No team put pressure on opposing quarterbacks at a higher rate last year than … drumroll, please … the Redskins! The Redskins? Yep—per Football Outsiders’ premium charting data, Washington got pressure on a league-high 36.7 percent of opponent pass plays—the highest quarterback pressure rate, in fact, of any team in the league over the past three seasons (which is as far back as their tracking goes). Not all of these pressures produced sacks, of course—Washington finished fourth in the league with an 8.1 percent adjusted sack ratewhile racking up 42 quarterback takedowns on the year (seventh)—but a league-best 90 percent of those sacks were of the high-quality variety; just four came on non-pressure plays like coverage sacks or situations where the quarterback ran himself into trouble.

 

In other words, the Redskins defensive front was as underrated as it was disruptive. That unit got consistent pressure on opposing passers, whether it came from its top edge rushers (like Ryan Kerrigan and Preston Smith, who combined for 21.0 sacks) or via blitz (47.6 percent of which generated pressure, sixth best). That performance is even more intriguing when you consider that top pick Jonathan Allen missed all but five games; add him back into the mix, along with the team’s top selection this year, Daron Payne, and we may not be sleeping on Washington’s defensive front for much longer.

 

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2018/6/21/17486716/weird-nfl-stats-2018

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On 7/30/2018 at 7:57 PM, Morneblade said:

Yeah, this time last year Phil Taylor was the surprise of the line.  He was performing in Pre-Season and making an impact.  Not much out there on him now and his progress but if he's got a fully healed quad now and in good shape, he's going to have to perform in the preseason to make it.  I'd suspect that he will put it all out on the line to make the roster.  Phil Taylor is an X factor that could over achieve and be a sleeper.  

 

On 7/30/2018 at 7:57 PM, Morneblade said:

Quoted:

"Maybe? I don't know. I'd like to see Phil healthy, just to see if he can get back and play. And then let the chips fall where they may. I was never sold on McGee though, tends to take plays off. So, it could happen I suppose.

 

Settle might need a year. He's a big kid I know, but from what I understand, he's not as strong as he needs to be, more of a penetrator, good feet. Depends on how you want to use him, I suppose. Taylor at his best, could do it all though. I don't think we'll get that guy back, but he still might have some good play in him."

 

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1 hour ago, XxSpearheadxX said:

I hole-hardedly agree, but allow me to play doubles advocate here for a moment. For all intensive purposes I think you are wrong. In an age where false morals are a diamond dozen, true virtues are a blessing in the skies. We often put our false morality on a petal stool like a bunch of pre-Madonnas, but you all seem to be taking something very valuable for granite. So I ask of you to mustard up all the strength you can because it is a doggy dog world out there. Although there is some merit to what you are saying it seems like you have a huge ship on your shoulder. In your argument you seem to throw everything in but the kids Nsync, and even though you are having a feel day with this I am here to bring you back into reality. I have a sick sense when it comes to these types of things. It is almost spooky, because I cannot turn a blonde eye to these glaring flaws in your rhetoric. I have zero taller ants when it comes to people spouting out hate in the name of moral righteousness. You just need to remember what comes around is all around, and when supply and command fails you will be the first to go. Make my words, when you get down to brass stacks it doesn't take rocket appliances to get two birds stoned at once. It's clear who makes the pants in this relationship, and sometimes you just have to swallow your prize and accept the facts. You might have to come to this conclusion through denial and error but I swear on my mother's mating name that when you put the petal to the medal you will pass with flying carpets like it's a peach of cake.

:redskins-3908:

I love you. HOF. 

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In the past I feel like we would have attached so much hope to guys like Settle and Lanier, young talented players that might be something but quite frankly nobody knows what their career trajectory will be. They’d be mixed in with a Hood and a Taylor, vet guys who were first rounders that have showed signs of being solid players but careers have been marred by injury or inconsistency. And we would go into the season convincing ourselves Taylor would rebound from three years injury and live up to his potential. We would call Ziggy Hood the leader of the group and valuable guy to have around. Lanier and Settle would be enshrined in Canton already.

 

In the past, there was no Matt I, Jon Allen, and Daron Payne. Why? Because we used to draft 3 bum receivers in a single round instead of drafting trenches. The fact that we are able to say the guys above on the DL are now our depth and not starters that are attached unrealistic expectations, is what’s different. And frankly it’s pretty much true across the entire team. But I think DL especially underscores the stark contrast between where we used to be and where we are today.

 

@HTTRDynasty that’s exciting stuff thanks for posting. Goes along with the eye test as well.

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On 8/5/2018 at 9:22 PM, Anselmheifer said:

 

I disagree with this contention. Coming out of college, Kerrigan was thought of more as a 4-3 DE, and that I think remains his natural fit. As a 4-3 OLB, he much more often is rushing the passer and seldom drops into coverage. He's almost always playing a de-facto DE in a 4-2. Kerrigan is stout enough against the run for our run defense to be solid. Ditto Preston Smith. The traditional 4-3 RDE is a speed player without great size. Only rarely have 4-3 DE's has both thespeed to rush the passer and the power to stop the run. Those players are rare, and that is part of the reason for the rise of the 3-4. It's easier to find personnel. 

 

I think we were soft against the run in our 3-4 defense for two reasons. One, our DT's have not been very good for quite some time. Our 4-3 was fine against the run when Allen was playing and before Ioannidis broke his hand. The second reason is that a 4-2 by nature is a nickel defense. There is one less LB close to the line of scrimmage to stop the run. 

good points...hence the hybrid...a la Sua Cravens...chasin' an Urlacher-esque type

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7 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

In the past I feel like we would have attached so much hope to guys like Settle and Lanier, young talented players that might be something but quite frankly nobody knows what their career trajectory will be. They’d be mixed in with a Hood and a Taylor, vet guys who were first rounders that have showed signs of being solid players but careers have been marred by injury or inconsistency. And we would go into the season convincing ourselves Taylor would rebound from three years injury and live up to his potential. We would call Ziggy Hood the leader of the group and valuable guy to have around. Lanier and Settle would be enshrined in Canton already.

 

In the past, there was no Matt I, Jon Allen, and Daron Payne. Why? Because we used to draft 3 bum receivers in a single round instead of drafting trenches. The fact that we are able to say the guys above on the DL are now our depth and not starters that are attached unrealistic expectations, is what’s different. And frankly it’s pretty much true across the entire team. But I think DL especially underscores the stark contrast between where we used to be and where we are today.

 

@HTTRDynasty that’s exciting stuff thanks for posting. Goes along with the eye test as well.

In my case that is because I still remember finds like Rich Milot at 7 (OK, he was a LB), Monte Coleman at 11 (OK, 'nother backer),  Dexter Manley at 5 and Darryl Grant at 8. Going way back, Chis Hanburger was an 18, Harold McLinton was a 6 and Manny Sistrunk (not awesome but a solid part of some of our great defenses of the 70s)  was a 5. Most teams get good or stay good because they find a handful of top players and some solid depth with mid and late round picks (not to mention UDFAs and street FAs). I'd love to be able to say I was on the Settle bus in 2018 like I can't say honestly that I was riding the Grant bus in 1981.

 

Even though it would not be a trench spread, in 2008 I think a good spread would have been sort of the same:  Jordy Nelson, DeSean Jackson and Martellus Bennet.

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9 minutes ago, Darth Tater said:

In my case that is because I still remember finds like Rich Milot at 7 (OK, he was a LB)

Hes my uncle a few times removed. Lived in the same **** hole PA coal town as my grandparents. Drafting him helped cement my being a fan. How unfortunate. 

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Did anyone else see the quote by Gruden about Pete Robinson? Apparently Robinson is athletic enough to have played RB last year on the practice squad. Crazy.

 

“You know, last year we had him on the practice squad a little bit, and he was active late but he was doing some running back stuff for us, cause we had a lot of injuries at running back. He's a great athlete. He can rush the passer.”

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So below is the 2017 production for our DL from a pass rushing perspective.  Not sure if thre's an easy way to put a table into this forum, so here goes:

............|Snap %|Sacks|QB Hits|Pass Def|
Ioannidis...|53.5% | 4.5 |  17  |  0    |
Lanier.......|31.1% | 5   |  9    |  5     |
Allen.........|14.5% | 1   |  6    |  0     |
McGee.....|39.2% | 0   |  4    |  1     |
McClain....|29.8% | 2   |  3    |  0     |
Hood........|49.0% | 0   |  1    |  0     |

If we normalize this for everyone, and pretend it was possible to play 100% of the snaps (it isn't), then here's what each player's production would be for the season:

............|Sacks|QB Hits|Pass Def|
Ioannidis...| 8.4 |  31.8 |  0      |
Lanier.......| 16.1|  28.9 |  16.1  |
Allen.........| 6.9 |  41.4 |  0      |
McGee......| 0    |  10.2 |  2.6   |
McClain.....| 6.7 |  10.1 |  0      |
Hood.........| 0    |  2    |  0       |

 

I think this shows in 2017 we had 3 pretty good to great pass rushers from the inside.  If this stays true for 2018 it's an embarrassment of riches.  If DaRon Payne can rush the passer better than Hood and McClain could from the 0 or 1 technique, it would be ridiculous.  Knock on wood, but our DL could expose some teams who think all you need to pass protect are a pair of tackles and can cut costs on the interior.

 

For comparison, Super Bowl winner Fletcher Cox produced similar stats to Ioannidis in a similar amount of snaps.  Now obviously Cox was a lot better against the run as well, but that's a fantastic comparison.

Cox....|59.0% | 5.5 sacks | 17 QB Hits | 2 Passes Deflected

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7 hours ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

So below is the 2017 production for our DL from a pass rushing perspective.  Not sure if thre's an easy way to put a table into this forum, so here goes:

............|Snap %|Sacks|QB Hits|Pass Def|
Ioannidis...|53.5% | 4.5 |  17  |  0    |
Lanier.......|31.1% | 5   |  9    |  5     |
Allen.........|14.5% | 1   |  6    |  0     |
McGee.....|39.2% | 0   |  4    |  1     |
McClain....|29.8% | 2   |  3    |  0     |
Hood........|49.0% | 0   |  1    |  0     |

If we normalize this for everyone, and pretend it was possible to play 100% of the snaps (it isn't), then here's what each player's production would be for the season:

............|Sacks|QB Hits|Pass Def|
Ioannidis...| 8.4 |  31.8 |  0      |
Lanier.......| 16.1|  28.9 |  16.1  |
Allen.........| 6.9 |  41.4 |  0      |
McGee......| 0    |  10.2 |  2.6   |
McClain.....| 6.7 |  10.1 |  0      |
Hood.........| 0    |  2    |  0       |

 

I think this shows in 2017 we had 3 pretty good to great pass rushers from the inside.  If this stays true for 2018 it's an embarrassment of riches.  If DaRon Payne can rush the passer better than Hood and McClain could from the 0 or 1 technique, it would be ridiculous.  Knock on wood, but our DL could expose some teams who think all you need to pass protect are a pair of tackles and can cut costs on the interior.

 

For comparison, Super Bowl winner Fletcher Cox produced similar stats to Ioannidis in a similar amount of snaps.  Now obviously Cox was a lot better against the run as well, but that's a fantastic comparison.

Cox....|59.0% | 5.5 sacks | 17 QB Hits | 2 Passes Deflected

 

I was just wondering what Lanier's pressure rate was. Five sacks with so few snaps is ridiculous. 

 

Also, I wanted to find a video of Pete Robinson. I'm attaching one below. Impressive enough for a guy that we got on the cheap. 

 

 

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I'd be in agreement that I'm most interested in this defense as the camp roles on.  Get them working on something bigger than themselves because they have the ability to be dominating and surprise a lot of teams. Success could come quickly and there wouldn't be much surprise after that.  They'd change the season from the first whistle.  It would be nice to have a feared defense, taking the stress off the offense would allow the team get on a roll. 

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If the Skins stay healthy I believe they have a top 3 DL rotation. They don’t have Suh & Donald, but few do, including the Rams as of now. I still find it hard to believe we left the last 3 drafts with Allen, Ioan, Payne, & Tuttle. 

 

#AllPayne #Tuttonidis

 

 

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On Monday, August 06, 2018 at 11:09 PM, HTTRDynasty said:

Just saw this fact (in bold):

 

No team put pressure on opposing quarterbacks at a higher rate last year than … drumroll, please … the Redskins! The Redskins? Yep—per Football Outsiders’ premium charting data

 

Whats that say about the secondary? That got worse during the offseason. 

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1 hour ago, desertbeagle85 said:

 

Whats that say about the secondary? That got worse during the offseason. 

We got consistent pressure but we lack guys with close out finishing speed. How many times were we thiiiiiis close to a sack only to let the QB slip away and then hit a pass 25+ yards downfield because our secondary can't cover?

 

The entire tone of our season was set Week 1 when Kerrigan whiffed on Wentz who then hit that long TD pass on I believe the first drive of the game.

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12 hours ago, volsmet said:

If the Skins stay healthy I believe they have a top 3 DL rotation. They don’t have Suh & Donald, but few do, including the Rams as of now. I still find it hard to believe we left the last 3 drafts with Allen, Ioan, Payne, & Tuttle. 

 

#AllPayne #Tuttonidis

 

 

 

Settle? 

 

 

I do think we have a group with a very high ceiling.  I want to see it on the field in the reg season though.  Settle passed his first test against NE as he dominated the way you want a starting caliber player to dominate vs backups.  I hope we see him rotate in with the 1st team on Thursday.  The dude earned a chance IMHO to get a shot.... of course I don't see what's happening at practice.  I really want to see us line up in a heavy package with Allen / Payne / Settle / Ioannidis at some point this year too, but with Ioannidis out 2 - 3 weeks, that wont happen til the regular season.   

 

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I'd love for Payne/Allen/Ion/Settle to all grow and develop together and kind of become the new defensive version of the Hogs that our franchise can build off of for the next 5+ years.

 

I'm tired of being pushed around up front. Lets stop the run and start beating people up at the line of scrimmage.

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