Is this the most talented yet misused defensive front we've had in years?

[method man]

On 12/15/2019 at 11:33 PM, Art said:

Allen is an atrocious defensive end in a 3-4.   Ok, he's average at best.   Payne is average at best as a nose tackle in a 3-4.   Now, you put both at defensive tackle in a 4-3 with Sweat and Kerrigan with their hands on the ground and I ASSURE you things look a LOT different.   Allen is a one-gap player ONLY.   Payne is your two-gap interior space eater.   You play them right and they will be ok.   You play this scheme where they are simply not good fits for the positions and you get what you see now.   Payne isn't a NT in the NFL.   Allen is NOT a DE in the NFL.   But we play both at those spots.   

You put that 4-3 line in with Foster, Cole and Bostic at backer and you are suddenly an interesting defense for having players 6 of 7 almost naturally suited for those positions along your front 7.    At present we have precisely 0 players in the front seven playing in an ideal position for their skills.   

 

You would have to prioritize Ioannidis over Allen at this point. You could also play Allen at one of the DE spots but you already have Sweat as your strongside DE. You generally need a lighter faster twitch type at the other DE spot - hopefully this is Chase Young. Even without Allen, you still have great depth with Settle as your #3 guy and Hester as the #4 guy. You could go with Orchard and Odom as your backup ends. 

 

Remember Reuben Foster sucked as a WLB when SF ran a 4-3 scheme in his second year. You'd have to see how he is as a the MLB with Cole playing WLB (given the speed) and Anderson at the SLB spot doing what he does best. SDH could back up Reuben, Bostic could back up Anderson and JHC or another backer could back up Cole.

[Art]

23 hours ago, NeverSurrender said:

Great Points, I never wanted us to move on from the 4-3.  I think we would immediately be better at stopping the run in the 4-3.  Only 2 questions, what do we do with Matt Ion?  He has been better then both Allen and Payne.  Ideally we want all 3 on the field as much as possible (match up dictation of course).  Next question would be about Ryan Anderson,  I think that guy has solidified his position on the first team, although he does play the run well, im not sure he is suited to play 4-3 End.  Just wanting your thoughts on that.  Loved your post though.  I would like to see us go back to the 4-3.  

 

So Anderson would be a pretty standard SS linebacker, right?   I used three names but mix and match as you see fit.   Anderson at SS, Foster at MLB and Hamilton at weak is fine too :).   I'm not as much in love with Holcomb as others may be, but whatever combo works, we are generally more suited for this lineup.

 

17 hours ago, Master Blaster said:

 

You just created the slowest front 7 in the NFL

 

Fiction.   First, we'd be faster as a front seven than we are TODAY with the lineup.   Second, by moving Kerrigan and Sweat to PURE DEs they go from slow (Kerringan) and fast in a straight line but SLOW on quickness (Sweat) at OLB, to VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY fast defensive ends.   Allen goes from an exceptionally slow DE to a very fast DT.   You actually increase the speed of your front seven dramatically with the 4-3.   Now, would I like MORE speed?   Sure.   Take Bostic out, put Foster there, put Anderson at SS and Hamilton at weakside and you are even faster.   In any case, this is a very fast front seven by putting players slow in their current spots into spots they'd actually be pretty quick.

 

12 hours ago, method man said:

 

You would have to prioritize Ioannidis over Allen at this point. You could also play Allen at one of the DE spots but you already have Sweat as your strongside DE. You generally need a lighter faster twitch type at the other DE spot - hopefully this is Chase Young. Even without Allen, you still have great depth with Settle as your #3 guy and Hester as the #4 guy. You could go with Orchard and Odom as your backup ends. 

 

Remember Reuben Foster sucked as a WLB when SF ran a 4-3 scheme in his second year. You'd have to see how he is as a the MLB with Cole playing WLB (given the speed) and Anderson at the SLB spot doing what he does best. SDH could back up Reuben, Bostic could back up Anderson and JHC or another backer could back up Cole.

 

I'd never let Allen play DE except in goal line.   He's terrible there now and he'd be FAR worse in a 4-3.   As for linebacker, you can mix and match, as mentioned above, how you see fit :).

[Malapropismic Depository]

On 12/17/2019 at 7:58 AM, Voice_of_Reason said:

I don't remember who were the DCs under Norv. I remember Mike Nolan, who was very vanilla.   And Ray Rhodes in 2000.  Ray was a really good DC. I never understood why Nolan ever got a HC opportunity in SF.  Dan might have been a dick putting vanilla ice cream on his desk, but damn if the sentiment wasn't right.  

 

EDIT: I looked it up.  

 

1993 - 1996: Ron Lynn (I have no real memory of him)

1997 -1999 Nolan

2000 - Rhodes

 

I can't pass any judgement on Lynn, but 3 years of Nolan for Norv seems very equivalent to Haz/Barry/Manusky under Jay.

 

How can we forget "Read and React. What we do works !"

[Alexa]

Oh man was Ron Lynn  was a pile of hot garbage!!!!!!!!! I remember when Boomer who was old and washed up threw for 530 yards and he sat there with a stupid look on his face. Totally overwhelmed.  The best DC we had after Ritchie was Gregg Williams. 

[Master Blaster]

On 12/17/2019 at 10:45 PM, skinny21 said:

Maybe I’m missing something, but didn’t he just essentially replace Ioannidas with Rueben Foster?

 

The switch from a two-gap system to a 4-3 one gap is vital in the analysis.

 

Kerrigan is slow as a 3-4 OLB or as a 4-3 DE.  Sweat has fast measurables but doesn't have a burst as an OLB.  I'd like to see him as a hand in the dirt DE.

The switch to a 4-3 IMO would necessitate getting Chase Young or another explosive DE in FA/Draft.

The front would have four of the following: Young/Sweat/Allen/Ion/Payne depending on package (Single Leo vs Double Leo if Tampa 2 scheme)

With LB's on roster now, probably Bostic/Foster/Cole as SLB/MLB/WLB but I'd have to look a little more. Anderson possibly in a hybrid SLB/DE role.

It doesn't seem like much but that DE change is drastic for the scheme. 

[skinny21]

@masterblaster I like the post, but I’m perhaps even more confused.  

Since you say you prefer Sweat at DE more, and Kerrigan is slow either way, is your issue that the interior will be slower playing 1 gap vs 2?  
Or were you just saying our front 7 would be slow compared with other 4-3 front 7s?

And just to be clear, you weren’t talking about team speed (which would be faster having an additional LB vs dlineman), but more about - I’m really not sure here - the penetration of the DTs...?  Is that right?

 

[Master Blaster]

7 hours ago, skinny21 said:

@masterblaster I like the post, but I’m perhaps even more confused.  

Since you say you prefer Sweat at DE more, and Kerrigan is slow either way, is your issue that the interior will be slower playing 1 gap vs 2?  
Or were you just saying our front 7 would be slow compared with other 4-3 front 7s?

And just to be clear, you weren’t talking about team speed (which would be faster having an additional LB vs dlineman), but more about - I’m really not sure here - the penetration of the DTs...?  Is that right?

 

 

No I’m saying the overall speed of the front 7 would be the slowest 4-3 front in the league. 
 

Virtually no fast twitch player on the D-Line. 
 

The benefit of going to a 4-3 is to get more team speed and athleticism. Kerrigan and Sweat as they DE’s does not do that. 

[Anselmheifer]

On 12/20/2019 at 12:22 AM, Master Blaster said:

 

No I’m saying the overall speed of the front 7 would be the slowest 4-3 front in the league. 
 

Virtually no fast twitch player on the D-Line. 
 

The benefit of going to a 4-3 is to get more team speed and athleticism. Kerrigan and Sweat as they DE’s does not do that. 

 

I looked for this thread to post something else, but love that this is the most recent post, given that we signed Del Rio, we are now changing to a 4-3, Sweat looked very good to close out the season, and are likely drafting Chase Young. 

Anyway, I came back to this thread to say that it's hard not to imagine what this defense would look like if we went all in. It won't, and shouldn't happen, but imagine trading Trent Williams for CJ Mosly. Grabbing Mosley, signing Byron Jones, and also signing a FS to replace Nicholson would make the defense so fun to watch. Sweat, Chase Young, Jonathan Allen, Payne, and Ionnidis, backed up by Dunlop, Byron Jones, Reuben Foster, CJ Mosley, Landon Collins and a competent FS, would be incredible to watch. 

In any case, I while I don't think we should trade for that albatross of a Mosley contract, especially at the expense of protecting Haskins, I do think we should be going close to all in on defense. This year, or next, we should be trying to add 2 more solid corners, a FS, at least one very good LB, and Chase Young. We have the cap and draft capital to do this, and if Haskins pans out, and we can sign a TE and piece together a healthy OL, we could be a special team by 2021. 

[Malapropismic Depository]

 

[method man]

14 hours ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

I don’t get why Holcomb started over him. Hopefully, the new staff realizes SDH is a starter next year

[HTTRDynasty]

20 minutes ago, method man said:

I don’t get why Holcomb started over him.

 

Run defense.

[Koolblue13]

Watching the Vikings game and they are not so different than we can be. Abusive Dline. Great FS (which has been a huge need for a decade and theirs is a FA) and a dynamic RB, with adequate QB play. We have a chance to be at least that good next season with the right FA moves.

[skinsfan212689]

30 minutes ago, method man said:

I don’t get why Holcomb started over him. Hopefully, the new staff realizes SDH is a starter next year

The same reason some genius decided to GIVE Trey Quinn the slot job over sims...

 

Inability to identify the better player and put them in position to succeed. 
 

Hail

[HTTRDynasty]

6 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Watching the Vikings game and they are not so different than we can be. Abusive Dline. Great FS (which has been a huge need for a decade and theirs is a FA) and a dynamic RB, with adequate QB play. We have a chance to be at least that good next season with the right FA moves.

 

It would be expecting a lot out of Haskins for him to perform at or near the same level as a 31 year old starting QB in year 2.  I think it's more realistic to have expectations of Haskins playing closer to what Jimmy Garrapolo has done this year, hopefully with a defense close to the 49ers with the right FA moves.

[Riggo#44]

On 12/18/2019 at 2:35 PM, Alexa said:

Oh man was Ron Lynn  was a pile of hot garbage!!!!!!!!! I remember when Boomer who was old and washed up threw for 530 yards and he sat there with a stupid look on his face. Totally overwhelmed.  The best DC we had after Ritchie was Gregg Williams. 

Marvin Lewis. The one year LaVar had a good year (and then subsequently bashed Lewis on his godawful radio show)

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

It would be expecting a lot out of Haskins for him to perform at or near the same level as a 31 year old starting QB in year 2.  I think it's more realistic to have expectations of Haskins playing closer to what Jimmy Garrapolo has done this year, hopefully with a defense close to the 49ers with the right FA moves.

That was the point. Did you see the game? KC made 2 or 3 surprisingly nice clutch throws at the end, but they leaned on the run game, d line and great safety play.

[HTTRDynasty]

Just now, Koolblue13 said:

That was the point. Did you see the game? KC made 2 or 3 surprisingly nice clutch throws at the end, but they leaned on the run game, d line and great safety play.

 

Yeah, I watched the game.  Maybe I misinterpreted, but I took your post to mean we can be what the Vikings are as a team, not necessarily what they were for just that game.  Kirk was a top 10 QB this year, so that's what I didn't agree with when it comes to expecting that out of Haskins.  

 

I agree though if you meant that's the team we could be just looking at that specific game.  Though we need much better FS, LB and TE play (maybe WR too) in that case.