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Is this the most talented yet misused defensive front we've had in years?

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7 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

When you're thinking too much you tend to play slower.

 

Yep. I call it read, react, and get run over.

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45 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Yep. I call it read, react, and get run over.

 

Yeah, in his defense this defense apparently turns all of our pass rushers into that.

 

Quote

None of the knocks concern Sweat anymore. He’s at Redskins Park every day learning “so much information, so many new processes.” His focus now is understanding the two positions the Redskins expect him to play: the strongside and weakside linebacker roles on opposite sides of the formation. It has helped him understand the unit’s objectives on each play, but he has found the complexity challenging.

 

“I’m not just rushing the passer anymore,” Sweat explained. “I got to learn coverages, know when to drop down, when to rush and, when I do drop, am I in man [coverage] or am I in zone? Just stuff like that.”

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/08/27/montez-sweat-has-big-time-talent-his-redskins-teammates-are-teaching-him-little-things/

 

I'm not saying he shouldn't have to eventually learn that.  But how about he learns how to beat the guy in front of him first?  

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23 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

That's happening because Manusky is an imbicile. We've actually got a great 34 front 7. If we can draft young, and get a semi competent DC, we will have one of the NFLs most talented front 7s. Young and 2 "good" corners and our defense is as talented as any one. And for a few years too.

 

Our base front seven generally includes three linemen who are good to very good pass rushers and run stoppers and two OLB who are good pass rushers and I'm not really sure about runs.  The only way to change that is to remove one of them.  And if you're gonna do that why not play a 4 man line

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Holy crap, I have completely forgotten about Moreland

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I don't think Anderson has been a bust as some do.  But to me right now he's just a rotational guy and not a starter unless he can on occasion get a sack.  If I recall he had one overruled by a penalty against Miami but other than that its good that he's decent against the run but IMO you need more than that out of an edge guy.

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Vanguard said:

Charlie Casserly just said Moreland might be our best corner.  Didn’t curtail the comment at all.

 

wtf. 🤨

 

Knowing that he serves the unofficial role of the team's mouthpiece in the media, it sounds to me like the FO has opened negotiations with Dunbar and gotten nowhere.  Just a guess though.  

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9 hours ago, carex said:

 

Our base front seven generally includes three linemen who are good to very good pass rushers and run stoppers and two OLB who are good pass rushers and I'm not really sure about runs.  The only way to change that is to remove one of them.  And if you're gonna do that why not play a 4 man line

We usually do have a 4 man front.

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2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

We usually do have a 4 man front.

 

and yet we're out of it enough that our OLB are caught up in coverages and it's a problem.  A 4-3 base eliminates that

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56 minutes ago, carex said:

 

and yet we're out of it enough that our OLB are caught up in coverages and it's a problem.  A 4-3 base eliminates that

The coaching and gameplan are a lot more important than a base were in about 30% of the time.

 

 

Anyway 

So, what games should I watch tomorrow. I'm in the kitchen and can watch from about 11am till 11pm on my laptop. 

 

Any suggestions? I'd love to become a college fan, since the NFL is such garbage. 

Edited by Koolblue13

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16 hours ago, megared said:

 

Yeah, in his defense this defense apparently turns all of our pass rushers into that.

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/08/27/montez-sweat-has-big-time-talent-his-redskins-teammates-are-teaching-him-little-things/

 

I'm not saying he shouldn't have to eventually learn that.  But how about he learns how to beat the guy in front of him first?  

 

Great point. Its one reason I have hated the 3-4 in our tenure using it for a decade of futility now, the few times we unleashed the D proper, aside (RG3 first year... and crickets).  I am sorry but seeing Kerrigan and other stiff ass DE's in coverage has rarely been a victory for us. I think opposition QBs love to see our best pass rushers dropping into coverage.  I bet they wished we did it all game.

 

We drafted Sweat and his quick first step to get after QBs. We have squashed his best attribute.  On purpose.

 

I see other teams have finally expanded their teams D depth chart, to include base, nickel etc.

 

We still have the 3-4 only, a front we barely use yet construct our entire roster around finding F7 players to fit it specifically.

 

https://www.redskins.com/team/depth-chart

 

Edited by RandyHolt
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I still think Sweat is being asked to read first and then attack the QB. In between being dropped into coverage.  

 

That burst we read about 100 times in camp just isn't there firing off the ball and its kind of easy to see. Of course our DL coach is an idiot and doesn't stunt nor do things to confuse OL, and pad the sack stats like teams do on us. Our D can give up historically bad numbers for a month and he'll run the same D week after week.  We predictably rush in lanes straight at the OL so expectations need to be set accordingly on his sack numbers.  Rush 4 rush 4... rush 5!!! How'd they know we'd rush 5 straight at their 5 OL??

 

We have to run THE most vanilla predictable pass rush in the league.  1970's approach. We fool no one and don't even try. All our pressures result from a guy winning a 1 on 1 battle; we never have anyone clean.  Our passive approach may help our feeble bend dont break ambitions but have stiffled countless careers since Ron Lynn first deployed it here.

 

I wish one of our beatniks would ping Preston Smith after the season and get him to elaborate on his usage here.

Edited by RandyHolt
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33 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

I still think Sweat is being asked to read first and then attack the QB. In between being dropped into coverage.  

 

That burst we read about 100 times in camp just isn't there firing off the ball and its kind of easy to see. Of course our DL coach is an idiot and doesn't stunt nor do things to confuse OL, and pad the sack stats like teams do on us. Our D can give up historically bad numbers for a month and he'll run the same D week after week.  We predictably rush in lanes straight at the OL so expectations need to be set accordingly on his sack numbers.  Rush 4 rush 4... rush 5!!! How'd they know we'd rush 5 straight at their 5 OL??

 

We have to run THE most vanilla predictable pass rush in the league.  1970's approach. We fool no one and don't even try. All our pressures result from a guy winning a 1 on 1 battle; we never have anyone clean.  Our passive approach may help our feeble bend dont break ambitions but have sniffled countless careers since Ron Lynn first deployed it here.

 

I wish one of our beatniks would ping Preston Smith after the season and get him to elaborate on his usage here.

And even when we do blitz, its just guys running from 20 yards away right into an OL. We never stack the line and rush from the shortest distance and like you said we don't stunt, cross, or do anything creative.

 

I'll say it: Manusky is the worst D-Coord we've had here in the last 30 years. Yes, worse than Joe Barry. Barry sucked sure but he also didn't have any talent to work with outside of Kerrigan and Norman. Manusky has a bunch of 1st rounders invested up front and is still trash.

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No fan of Manusky, but we’ve stunted plenty.  We’ve also blitzed linebackers in the A gap (lined up between, or just behind the dlinemen).  Holcomb has gone untouched at least a few of those times and missed the qb.  
 

I’m frustrated with the D too, and I’m not looking to defend Manusky here, but his OLBs aren’t getting pressure, his corners are giving up easy throws (not just because of large cushions), blitzing ILBs hasn’t worked well, dropping more in coverage hasn’t worked.  I think he doesn’t have the horses, doesn’t have a scheme that can adjust to his players strengths, and isn’t a chess match type of coach.    On top of all that, our offense has sucked bad.  
 

I kind of want him to just stack the line like Gregg used to at times.  (and I a different coach, 😊)
 

Edit:  ‘Plenty’ might be generous.  Just in the highlights of the Vikings game, I counted 3 stunts though.  

Edited by skinny21
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I am not a Manusky guy, I don't think he's horrible either but nothing special.  I am friendlier to Jay then most but I do agree with those who pan his defensive coordinator picks.  I panned the Barry over Phillips move in real time when it went down like many here.   I had the same issue with Shanny -- he wasn't big into big D coordinator names here or when he was in Denver.  It's not that I think a coach is a panacea.  But IMO when you have a chance to get a legend like Wade Phillips you do it.   

 

I think the last really accomplished D coordinator we've had was Gregg.  Blache wasn't bad.     The one thing I am not going to fall for anymore is the new guy saying how much more aggressive he plans to be than the predecessor. 

 

 

 

On 11/14/2019 at 11:43 PM, skinny21 said:


 

I’m frustrated with the D too, and I’m not looking to defend Manusky here, but his OLBs aren’t getting pressure,

 

The big elephant in the room I think is Kerrigan.  Is he spent?  If so, it makes the idea that teams were chasing him pretrade deadline but the Redskins weren't budging look even dumber.  I like Kerrigan but at some point as a player ages they hit a wall.  Today is a good test for him, the Jets O line isn't good. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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For those on the draft thread years back you might recall some debate about Vita Vea.  He's really emerging.   82.5 PFF score.  When I was at the Tampa game last year he was mauling our interior, it was tough to miss. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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The Vita Vea information just proves the point that Skins do not know how to draft good talent.  They are not going to get better until they clean house

in the front office and bring a new team of talent evaluators.  How has Doug Williams shown he can recognize college talent for the NFL?  He did bring in

AP and most of us could have known that AP was a real pro.  But what has he done lately for the Skins?? 

He relies on Smith and others for information but if he ignores their input or if Allen ignores the scouts input then we end up missing on a player like Vea.

Just like Snyder ignoring who the coaches wanted at pick number 15 in the first round of last year's draft.

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9 minutes ago, veteranskinsfan said:

The Vita Vea information just proves the point that Skins do not know how to draft good talent.  They are not going to get better until they clean house

in the front office and bring a new team of talent evaluators.  How has Doug Williams shown he can recognize college talent for the NFL?  He did bring in

AP and most of us could have known that AP was a real pro.  But what has he done lately for the Skins?? 

He relies on Smith and others for information but if he ignores their input or if Allen ignores the scouts input then we end up missing on a player like Vea.

Just like Snyder ignoring who the coaches wanted at pick number 15 in the first round of last year's draft.

Great rant, but Vea was picked right in front of us. Fitz before him which is who I wanted. And we drafted Payne who's arguably the best player on our team.

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Vea went before Payne.  But some said they liked Payne over Vea anyway.  I was a Vea over Payne guy though I like both and still do.  Vea PFF score 82.5, Payne 71.8.    What got my attention the most about Vea initially was being at that Tampa game a year ago and Vea was just destroying our interior at least when my eyes was on that part of the field. 

 

Derwin James who they passed on was the defensive rookie of the year last year, All Pro-first team player -- Dan's never had a first time all pro player in 20 years aside from a punter.

3 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

 but Vea was picked right in front of us. Fitz before him which is who I wanted. And we drafted Payne who's arguably the best player on our team.

 

I was a Fitzpatrick guy, too.  He's been almost MVP caliber in Pittsburgh.  Then James.  Then Vea.  Then Payne.  I brought in the Vea stuff because I recall some fun debates about Vea versus Payne on that draft thread.  

 

I think by and large this team drafts well but their pro personnel department is a different story. 😀

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Vea went before Payne.  But some said they liked Payne over Vea anyway.  I was a Vea over Payne guy though I like both and still do.  Vea PFF score 82.5, Payne 71.8.    What got my attention the most about Vea initially was being at that Tampa game a year ago and Vea was just destroying our interior at least when my eyes was on that part of the field. 

 

Derwin James who they passed on was the defensive rookie of the year last year, All Pro-first team player -- Dan's never had a first time all pro player in 20 years aside from a punter.

 

I was a Fitzpatrick guy, too.  He's been almost MVP caliber in Pittsburgh.  Then James.  Then Vea.  Then Payne.  I brought in the Vea stuff because I recall some fun debates about Vea versus Payne on that draft thread.  

 

I think by and large this team drafts well but their pro personnel department is a different story. 😀

The conversations for that draft was great. I was Fitz and Payne, you James and Vea. The best part, we were both right. 

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16 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

The conversations for that draft was great. I was Fitz and Payne, you James and Vea. The best part, we were both right. 

 

Yep I did like Vea over Payne.  

 

As for James-Fitzpatrick I was pretty torn, depended on the week, closer to the draft I believe I was more of a Fitzpatrick guy but maybe I am misrecalling, I'd have to go back and look.  😀    I do recall close to the draft I wanted either guy over the DT's.  I do value DT over S typically.  Both I thought (like many others did) both James and Fitzpatrick were swiss arm knives and special -- not ordinary safeties. 

 

I loved both James and Fitzpatrick just about equally.

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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