Vanguard

Is this the most talented yet misused defensive front we've had in years?

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Well so much for my prediction of the defense getting 50 sacks.  The pass rush was totally impotent today, and losing Allen was a devastating blow.  Payne is not as good out at 5 technique and Settle is not as good a nose.  And without the attention that Payne and Allen generate on their side, Ioannidis is much less effective.

 

The Eagles have a dominant offensive line, but we've got to get some things figured out schematically, and we've got to figure out a way to cope with Allen's loss or else this defense is not going to be anywhere as good as expected.  This game was a wake up call.

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3 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Well so much for my prediction of the defense getting 50 sacks.  The pass rush was totally impotent today, and losing Allen was a devastating blow.  Payne is not as good out at 5 technique and Settle is not as good a nose.  And without the attention that Payne and Allen generate on their side, Ioannidis is much less effective.

 

The Eagles have a dominant offensive line, but we've got to get some things figured out schematically, and we've got to figure out a way to cope with Allen's loss or else this defense is not going to be anywhere as good as expected.  This game was a wake up call.

 

And Ryan Kerrigan was a complete non-factor.

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3 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

 

And Ryan Kerrigan was a complete non-factor.

 

He started slow last year though.  One thing we've learned over the years is that the sacks will come with him.  He is the most reliable player in the organization.

 

I think Sweat had a bit of a rough day too, and maybe I set my expectations for him a little too high this season.  I hope not, because we really need his edge speed to be a factor if we're going to have a dominant rush.

 

And losing Allen was probably the worst blow we could have suffered.  He's arguably the best player on the defense.  We lose ~10 sacks and elite run D plus leadership and tone setting when he goes down.  He's the play finisher too.  DaRon is a table setter, Allen is the one with the special instincts for finishing.

 

At least Holcomb was good.  He looks like a keeper.

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I don't pretend to know anything.  All I see is what I see on TV.  To me though, it seems like our defensive front is overrated.  It looks like one on one matchups to me and we are constantly beat on those.  A good d-line would dominate their opponent and I'm not seeing that.  So, that makes me think we need better coaching.  We need someone that can mask our players shortcomings and generate pressures.  I don't think we have that.  More disappointed that our guys can't seem to win one on one matchups though.

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2 minutes ago, owa said:

I don't pretend to know anything.  All I see is what I see on TV.  To me though, it seems like our defensive front is overrated. 

Bingo..we have a winner...its been so long we no longer know what a good unit really looks like. A good unit wouldnt allow 9 minute drives on the first 2 series of the 2nd half with a 10 point lead.

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10 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

He started slow last year though.  One thing we've learned over the years is that the sacks will come with him.  He is the most reliable player in the organization.

 

I think Sweat had a bit of a rough day too, and maybe I set my expectations for him a little too high this season.  I hope not, because we really need his edge speed to be a factor if we're going to have a dominant rush.

 

And losing Allen was probably the worst blow we could have suffered.  He's arguably the best player on the defense.  We lose ~10 sacks and elite run D plus leadership and tone setting when he goes down.  He's the play finisher too.  DaRon is a table setter, Allen is the one with the special instincts for finishing.

 

At least Holcomb was good.  He looks like a keeper.

 

Kerrigan has like 4-5 really great games a year but is otherwise a non factor in the rest. He isn't worth his salary. That is the harsh truth. Restructure his salary or move on for him. He's too streaky in his "impact". Ioannidis was a relative no show today, maybe a tackle or two for him. Payne had a couple good plays but was largely ineffective too, but I'm less likely to get mad at 2nd year players. I don't think the defensive play calling did anyone any favors today, guys looked tired and in the wrong places in a lot important plays. 

 

Holcomb looked average, wouldn't want him to tackle in space or cover too much but he did have a few decent plays in an afternoon largely devoid of praise.  

 

Allen's trickle down effect on the line is a lot more powerful than I thought. That or Kerrigan and company really aren't worth their paycheck/not ready yet. 

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Losing Allen is a death knell for this D. Same thing happened in 2017 too. Payne is talented but more limited as a player and the OLBs aren't good enough to consistently win matchups without the DL up front making life hell. If he's out for any significant period of time we're boned.

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Kerrigan has always been consistently good.  GOOD, not great.  He has had a few seasons where he was right on the borderline of being great, but he's mostly been good.  Good is fine, good is not bad, good is not fair. Good is good, but this defense desperately needs a pass rusher that is GREAT.  Kerrigan pulls this act most seasons where by end of the final game he has about 10 sacks and you are left thinking, ok fine....but then you look back and break it down and what that really meant was he had 1-2 games where he had 3 sacks, and the rest were randomly scattered over the season.  

 

I like Kerrigan, I want Kerrigan on this team for the rest of his career (as long as he doesn't end up asking for crazy money) but he has a ceiling on his play and we really need someone on the other side that is a TERROR for offenses.  

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What a sham so far. Need to see some games against less good OL, but you can't have the whole thing fall apart with one injury. Every positional group on the roster is built like that, so it shouldn't be a surprise. But it will be mightily disappointing if the front 7 isn't better than it showed tonight. Wentz had way too much time and they were running all over us as well. 

 

I think Manuski thought he had them right where he wanted them after the half, and that the D could get after the QB and force mistakes. But the Eagles actually did the opposite, didn't panic, and used the running game to slow things down and get back into the game, slowly wearing down the D (not that slowly--their conditioning when they start failing to cause 3-and-outs seems to be for ****). And then it was all over.

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2 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

Losing Allen is a death knell for this D. Same thing happened in 2017 too. Payne is talented but more limited as a player and the OLBs aren't good enough to consistently win matchups without the DL up front making life hell. If he's out for any significant period of time we're boned.

 

Yep. Payne is primarily there to consume space and be a big strong body in the middle.  When opportunities for more present themselves then he will take them (such as knocking down the 4th down pass today), but he was really drafted to give Jonathan Allen the ability to shed blockers and collapse the pocket. 

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So Jonathan Allen has a "sprained knee" and is day to day.  I think that is what Gruden meant when he accidentally said week to week.

 

Sounds like Allen was wanting to go back in the game but the coaches were trying to play it safe just in case, so they held him out the rest of the game.

 

Let's hope his knee is fine and he will be able to play against Dallas. 

 

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Could be anywhere from 2-4 weeks. Good to rest it now and avoid compromising the rest of the knee. It's a long season, and Settle can use the playing time to get better faster. 

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Most fans just think our d line is good because of what we have invested in it....dont mind the people who are making the picks tho

Edited by CjSuAvE22

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Yesterday was a demonstration of the necessity for depth in a rotation position like DL.  Brantley was hurt.  Allen got hurt.  Hester was inactive, so we had only three down linemen dressed and playable and they had to play an entire game where the Eagles possessed the ball for almost the entire second half.

 

Of course they struggled and looked ineffective late.  You guys are crazy, our DLs are ****ing studs.  It's not unreasonable to accept that Allen's injury screwed us because of course losing your best player after your depth had already been compromised is going to **** you.  Especially against a dominant OL like Philly's.  Nobody would look good under those circumstances.

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I haven't focused on the D line in that game or preseason so not sure about Settle yesterday.  I have noticed though that even though some beat guys thought he looked good in camp -- Casserly said that he heard that the FO doesn't think he is taking the next step in his development as they expected.  I also noticed PFF (albeit they are far from perfect) panned his preseason performances.

 

Years back many were convinced A. Lanier was the next best thing.  Is Settle the new overrated D lineman in a similar way?  I am not personally up or down on Settle.  He seemed like a nice dude in camp, interacted with fans, etc.  So I got no dog in assessing Settle but its hard for me to miss that not everyone is on his bandwagon. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise

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14 hours ago, Gibbs828791 said:

Bingo..we have a winner...its been so long we no longer know what a good unit really looks like. A good unit wouldnt allow 9 minute drives on the first 2 series of the 2nd half with a 10 point lead.

I've learned over the years not to believe any defensive hype.  This team has consistently failed with talent evaluation; say what you will about jerry Jones, but he and his staff pick the Lawrences, Vander Esch's, and Jones while we pick rotational players.  if it's not inability to find diamonds, then it's coaching.  My feeling is that you put a subpar d-coordinator with OK (at best) talent, and this is what you get.  

 

Was listening to Chris Russell after the game and he was yapping about "it's the execution, not just the coaching".  Here's the thing.  If the execution is problematic year after year after year, then it's one of two things.  One, your drafting/player evaluation stinks.  Or two, the coaching staff is not properly preparing guys to execute.  Why do Patriots players always execute, even guys who are marginal talents?  Because they are probably seeing everything in practice and doing the appropriate reps over and over.  D-Jax being left alone over and over showed me the team was not prepared, they were seeing formations they didn't expect, etc.  That falls on coaching,  

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Allen hurt, what a surprise... can't count on anybody in this franchise. What's the over/under on injured players this year? Will we top the list for the third year in a row?

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Sucks about Allen. Could be gone for up to a month, but looks like he is missing at least two weeks.  So if yesterday's game is any indication the Cowboys are going to run Zeke right through the middle of the line without much resistance. Ugh.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Capsman said:

Was listening to Chris Russell after the game and he was yapping about "it's the execution, not just the coaching".  Here's the thing.  If the execution is problematic year after year after year, then it's one of two things.  One, your drafting/player evaluation stinks.  Or two, the coaching staff is not properly preparing guys to execute.  Why do Patriots players always execute, even guys who are marginal talents?  Because they are probably seeing everything in practice and doing the appropriate reps over and over.  D-Jax being left alone over and over showed me the team was not prepared, they were seeing formations they didn't expect, etc.  That falls on coaching,  

 

He's still upset his buddy Haslett, who I believe is currently unemployed, was fired. He'll keep harping that Coaches are meaningless until the D is top-five. The bottom line is Coaches do factor in execution. Otherwise, the team has been drafting and signing the absolute worst players of all time.

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Ok but if the issue is the execution and it continues to be.....then you have to make the players accountable.  It sounds like the players are flat out not playing disciplined, maybe not following assignments or whatever.  You have Morgan Moses getting 2-3 penalties every single game.   Just the same things happening season after season.  

 

Will putting in backups make them win? Perhaps not, but they aren't winning with the starters either. 

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1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Yesterday was a demonstration of the necessity for depth in a rotation position like DL.  Brantley was hurt.  Allen got hurt.  Hester was inactive, so we had only three down linemen dressed and playable and they had to play an entire game where the Eagles possessed the ball for almost the entire second half.

 

Of course they struggled and looked ineffective late.  You guys are crazy, our DLs are ****ing studs.  It's not unreasonable to accept that Allen's injury screwed us because of course losing your best player after your depth had already been compromised is going to **** you.  Especially against a dominant OL like Philly's.  Nobody would look good under those circumstances.

 

if Brantly was hurt there was no excuse to dress him over Hester even if Hester knew only a small part of the playbook

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4 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

Ok but if the issue is the execution and it continues to be.....then you have to make the players accountable.  It sounds like the players are flat out not playing disciplined, maybe not following assignments or whatever.  You have Morgan Moses getting 2-3 penalties every single game.   Just the same things happening season after season.  

 

Will putting in backups make them win? Perhaps not, but they aren't winning with the starters either. 

I don't think holding is an issue of discipline, but the false starts perhaps.  But false starts can also be about getting an advantage on a d-lineman if you're getting beaten like a drum.  

 

I think there is an element of ill-preparedness on this team, no question.  It's one reason why our defense struggles so much beyond first quarters; Manusky is very limited in preparing the team for various formations.  Maybe he makes in-game adjustments, I don't know, but the team sure doesn't look comfortable with the adjustments.  Like not a lot of reps or film room on them. 

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