Vanguard

Is this the best Defensive Front we've had in years?

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1 hour ago, Anselmheifer said:

 

I think Manusky can field a competent defense that plays just below the level of its talent. He is not an upper echelon DC that can get an average unit to perform like a good one, or a good one to perform like a great one. 

So I’m curious what makes you believe this to be the case.  Not saying I disagree though.  

52 minutes ago, Leonard Washington said:

I agree.  He doesn't seem to do any scheme modifications that attack offenses or allow for our deficiencies to be masked.

I’m torn here.  Yes, he seems to have trouble masking our weaknesses (or maybe he can do it against the poorer offenses, but not better ones).  On the other hand, I could see that personnel issues made it tougher to try to mask those weaknesses.  

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Overall the team rarely seems to have a productive backup player who can fill in and not miss much.  That is a drafting/FA acquisition problem and coaching problem; which speaks to us not getting much more production than what is already there.  

Torn on this too. Vigil filled in pretty well for Foster last year.  Dunbar for Breeland/Norman too.  Everett’s been a competent backup.  SDH for Brown, Anderson for Smith.  Too soon to tell, but Settle looks like could be a good fill in for Payne.  

 

One complaint I have with the FO regarding personnel is how much units fluctuate in terms of quality of starters and depth.  For example, we had good starting receivers, but not very good depth when Garçon and Jackson were here.  This year we had solid depth, but poor starters.  Secondary has backslid.  Dline is one spot where we’ve actually improved both our starters and our depth (IMO).  

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3 hours ago, skinny21 said:

I’m torn here.  Yes, he seems to have trouble masking our weaknesses (or maybe he can do it against the poorer offenses, but not better ones).  On the other hand, I could see that personnel issues made it tougher to try to mask those weaknesses. 

Yea it's a chicken or egg type thing. When everything was going well early this season, we were just matching up and playing.  At the time the DL was getting pressure and forcing mistakes that the backend was feasting on by watching everything unfold in front of them.  

 

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Torn on this too. Vigil filled in pretty well for Foster last year.  Dunbar for Breeland/Norman too.  Everett’s been a competent backup.  SDH for Brown, Anderson for Smith.  Too soon to tell, but Settle looks like could be a good fill in for Payne. 

 

Did Vigil get much PT this year?  I don't remember seeing him.  Nsekhe has also been a standout backup at tackle, though I fear he's starting to wear down.  Jonathan Cooper looked fantastic, at least compared to Lavuao, before he went down. I can't vouch for SDH, Anderson, or Settle as backups.  They seem like "just a guy" to use Cooley-speak.

 

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One complaint I have with the FO regarding personnel is how much units fluctuate in terms of quality of starters and depth.  For example, we had good starting receivers, but not very good depth when Garçon and Jackson were here.  This year we had solid depth, but poor starters.  Secondary has backslid.  Dline is one spot where we’ve actually improved both our starters and our depth (IMO).  

It could also be that some starters should be backups and our backups shouldn't be in the league.  j/k

 

DL play regressed as the season went on despite being relatively healthy.  Compounded by the lack of creative defensive play calling, only highlighted the deficiencies in the back end.

 

 

Edited by Leonard Washington
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Does anybody think it will make a difference if we go to the 4-3 next season?  You know, maximize our talent up front.  Allen, Payne, Ioannidis, (draft pick), and rotate Settle in?  I'd love to see it.  But then I think it would be the smart thing to do, so we probably won't.

 

😕

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The defensive line is at least something to get excited about 

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53 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

Does anybody think it will make a difference if we go to the 4-3 next season?  You know, maximize our talent up front.  Allen, Payne, Ioannidis, (draft pick), and rotate Settle in?  I'd love to see it.  But then I think it would be the smart thing to do, so we probably won't.

 

😕


We mostly run a 4 man front now. Our base defense is our nickel, which is a 4-2-5. About 1/3 of the time, we play in a 3-4. I don't think it makes a big difference. 

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1 hour ago, Anselmheifer said:


We mostly run a 4 man front now. Our base defense is our nickel, which is a 4-2-5. About 1/3 of the time, we play in a 3-4. I don't think it makes a big difference. 

 

Okay.  You know more than I do.  But I don't feel like having a LB/DE hybrid type in your 4-3 is a true 4-3.  I'm talking about having all big boys up front, and prototypical linebackers backing them up.

Edited by Vanguard
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Kerrigan was considered a prototype LDE coming out of college. Payne and Allen are obviously big enough. Preston Smith has size. He’s as big as a Bruce Smith, Dwight Freeney, or a million other great RDE’s. He just sucks. If they replace him with someone that can rush the passer and get some functional ILB’s in there, then people won’t keep wondering whether we need a major scheme change. 

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4 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

Kerrigan was considered a prototype LDE coming out of college. Payne and Allen are obviously big enough. Preston Smith has size. He’s as big as a Bruce Smith, Dwight Freeney, or a million other great RDE’s. He just sucks. If they replace him with someone that can rush the passer and get some functional ILB’s in there, then people won’t keep wondering whether we need a major scheme change. 

I don't think Smith sucks, he's just not an explosive pass rusher. He's a solid 6-8 sack guy who's good against the run. He's basically Phillip Daniels, maybe a little more athletic but not quite as strong.

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10 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I don't think Smith sucks, he's just not an explosive pass rusher. He's a solid 6-8 sack guy who's good against the run. He's basically Phillip Daniels, maybe a little more athletic but not quite as strong.

 

He had 4 sacks this year, on a loaded defensive line, in a contract year. Anyone could put up those numbers. Almost literally. 

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10 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

 

He had 4 sacks this year, on a loaded defensive line, in a contract year. Anyone could put up those numbers. Almost literally. 

 

 

I disagree bud.  I think he was asked to do a quite a bit that prevented him from putting up stats like sacks.  He had a career high in tackles (53) as well as 16 QB hits.  I feel like he was asked to play a lot more vs the run, and not used AS MUCH in pass rush. 

 

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13 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

I disagree bud.  I think he was asked to do a quite a bit that prevented him from putting up stats like sacks.  He had a career high in tackles (53) as well as 16 QB hits.  I feel like he was asked to play a lot more vs the run, and not used AS MUCH in pass rush. 

 

 

Do you think they should move on from Preston?  IMO if he wants big money, he can walk.  If it's reasonable I GUESS he could stay.

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1 minute ago, Vanguard said:

 

Do you think they should move on from Preston?  IMO if he wants big money, he can walk.  If it's reasonable I GUESS he could stay.

 

 

I say make an offer.. but i'm not interested in huge deal.   Kerrigan is getting AAV of $11.5 M... $4.75 M guaranteed per year.  

 

If you want to put him at 3 years $25 mil... $13 mil - $15 mil guaranteed, I'd be ok with it.  In this system, he's not going to be a pro bowler but NOBODY has pro-bowlers at every position.  I'd actually like to see him used differently, but that's just me. 

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@Vanguard Looking at the numbers, that number may even be a little higher than necessary.  Orakpo was on the books for $2 mil guaranteed this year.  If he can be had at $3 guaranteed per year, why not? 

Edited by OVCChairman
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1 minute ago, OVCChairman said:

@Vanguard Looking at the numbers, that number may even be a little higher than necessary.  Orakpo was on the books for $2 mil guaranteed this year.  If he can be had at $3 guaranteed per year, why not? 

 

3 mil is very reasonable.  I'm still looking in the draft also though if I'm the Skins.

Edited by Vanguard
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5 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

 

3 mil is very reasonable.  I'm still looking in the draft also though if I'm the Skins.

 

 

Absolutely, even if you want to continue with Preston as a rush defender... a good pass rushing OLB is always an option.

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5 hours ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

I disagree bud.  I think he was asked to do a quite a bit that prevented him from putting up stats like sacks.  He had a career high in tackles (53) as well as 16 QB hits.  I feel like he was asked to play a lot more vs the run, and not used AS MUCH in pass rush. 

 

I agree that he was pretty good against the run. I also think the coaching staff may see things more your way. This is a passing league though. We were 7th in the league in sacks. Imagine how we would look if we could get some sack production opposite Kerrigan?

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12 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

I agree that he was pretty good against the run. I also think the coaching staff may see things more your way. This is a passing league though. We were 7th in the league in sacks. Imagine how we would look if we could get some sack production opposite Kerrigan?

 

 

I agree... I'd like to see us use him more as a pass rusher... just don't think we did.

 

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Yeah the 4 sacks is disappointing but I feel like Smith just isn't being coached up well enough. He's got long arms and good athleticism for his size but he's constantly bull rushing. Why is nobody teaching him a swim move? Or spin move? We need to hire a pass rush coach like the Packers and Chargers among others have.

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Orakpo is an odd one to compare contracts with.  Orakpo’s contract is funky (and his contract is 5 years old).  His signing bonus was 5 mil (plus roster bonuses), and his second year salary (6.5 mil) was fully guaranteed (if he was on the roster at the beginning of the league season.    

Also, according to Spotrac, his dead cap hit was 8.5 mil this year (which was his 7.25 salary plus his 1.25 prorated signing bonus), but they sure don’t give the impression his salary was guaranteed this year (only 2016’s)... weird.  

 

Anyway, my point is I can’t see us getting Smith at anything like 2-3 mil guaranteed.  I could be wrong of course, but I’d be shocked.  And FYI, Trent Murphy’s contract had around 7.8 mil guaranteed, and his 2nd year salary of 2.5 becomes guaranteed at the beginning of the league year (and it’s literally more expensive to cut him than pay him that salary).  So I’d guess we’re looking at 10+ mil guaranteed.  It is possible his base salary is close to that talked about 3 mil mark, though I’d guess closer to double that (Murphy was coming off a big injury).   

Edited by skinny21

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30 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Anyway, my point is I can’t see us getting Smith at anything like 2-3 mil guaranteed.   I’d guess we’re looking at 10+ mil guaranteed.  It is possible his base salary is close to that talked about 3 mil mark, though I’d guess closer to double that (Murphy was coming off a big injury).   

 

It's unlikely that Smith is generate a lot of sacks in the future.  Kerrigan gets sacks from the right and left side but Smith from neither.  If he's not getting sacks with Kerrigan on the opposite side and the strong interior push from the DL it's not going to happen for him.  Skins should not pay him 10million.  That's a hope for future production rather than a plan.  A reasonable base salary for his current production plus an incentive for 8, 10, 12 sacks is the best the Skins should do IMO.  If they can't sign him to that arrangement then he should get his next contract elsewhere.  Skins need to draft a speedy OLB now and develop plans for life-after-Kerrigan.

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Is that 2 years straight for Io?  I believe he was number two in 2017 until around the time of his injury at least.  

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