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Is this the most talented yet misused defensive front we've had in years?

Vanguard

By Vanguard
in The Stadium

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Going Commando

Going Commando

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Posted
12 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I think the MLBs are what separates them.

 

Definitely, although edge pressure is different too.  Then again, having Randy Gregory almost bit them in the ass with all of the mistakes he made.  He's a dummy.

 

Cowboys can spill everything against the run and play soft coverage on the outside to limit vertical passing and trust their stack linebackers to get to the sidelines and make one on one stops.  Their MLBs are special.  Arguably the most talented tandem in the NFL now.

 

That Saints passing offense is really predicated on establishing the run and establishing the short passing game.  The Cowboys just shut it down with a combination of second level speed and good tackling and interior pressure.

 

We've got the guys to generate that kind of interior pressure no doubt.  But as you note, our linebacker play is the difference. 

 

This is one reason why I'm not complaining about Reuben Foster.  I'm hoping he gets cleared of his charge and gets to play here.  The most impressive part of his game aside from his kick coverage is the way he can shut down throws the flats.  He's in the same class as Vander Esch and Jalen Smith.  Not as big as them, but faster and meaner.

 

The other thing I love about Foster's game is the way he just hurts climbing guards.  It's something to see a guy whose playing at 225-230 KO a 300+ pounder.  It'd be nice to be able to spill runs and not be scared of giving up 7 and 8 yards a pop.  Atlanta ****ing destroyed us on the edges.

1 hour ago, SemperFi Skins said:

 

Zach Brown is one of the fastest LB's in the NFL.... i think it actually comes down to instincts over speed. 

 

Agreed.  He's a burner with legit 4.4 speed, but he's always been slow to diagnose.  It's why he went in the second, and why he's changed teams a couple of times.  He plays hard but he's not the sharpest guy.

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skinny21

skinny21

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12 minutes ago, XxSpearheadxX said:

I know that age isn't everything but I just realized that Daron Payne will have just turned 23 years old when he enters the third year of his contract, 2 seasons from now! 

It’s pretty darn awesome we have such talent and youth on the dline.  

 

It’s a shame that my followup reaction has to do with the feeling their talents will be wasted on this team. ☹️

 

With that said (shooting for a ray of sunshine here, lol), I think we’re a talented ILB and corner from having a very good D.  Of course, than we need oline help and a qb... and maybe a speedy receiver and speed rusher...

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Anselmheifer

Anselmheifer

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Watch the play at 2:53. I have mixed feelings about Foster. Most of me hates it. I also think he's had too many infractions to pull his head out of his ***. But, if he did get his head together, is there any team with more talent up the middle than Payne, Ioannidis, Allen, Swearinger, Clinton Dix, and Foster? They could be a pass rusher and CB away from a once in a decade defense. And a Defensive coordinator. 

 

Also, am I the only one that thinks this could have been a great defensive unit this year under a great defensive coordinator? We HAVE to make a change at that spot next year. 

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Wildbunny

Wildbunny

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12 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

But, if he did get his head together, is there any team with more talent up the middle than Payne, Ioannidis, Allen, Swearinger, Clinton Dix, and Foster?

I could have agreed, but right now, I have trouble to get Clinton-Dix on this list...

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NoCalMike

NoCalMike

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So can someone explain why the D-line is now bad?  And I don't mean just saying guys suck.  Anyone watch the tape to see what has changed?  Are they just getting outplayed?  Daron Payne was a beast to start the season. Jonathan Allen picked up where he left off as a rookie (pre-injury).  Ionnadis was solid too.

 

What changed?  I know some of it has to do with offenses scheming stuff around the edges.  Taking advantage of the slowness and inability to seal the edges, but now we are even seeing the middle of the line gutted.    

 

I am just baffled. Defense starts up front, and that was a strength for the first month and a half of the season, but now it is a weakness.   

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Burgold

Burgold

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Just now, NoCalMike said:

So can someone explain why the D-line is now bad?  And I don't mean just saying guys suck.  Anyone watch the tape to see what has changed?  Are they just getting outplayed?  Daron Payne was a beast to start the season. Jonathan Allen picked up where he left off as a rookie (pre-injury).  Ionnadis was solid too.

 

What changed?  I know some of it has to do with offenses scheming stuff around the edges.  Taking advantage of the slowness and inability to seal the edges, but now we are even seeing the middle of the line gutted.    

 

I am just baffled. Defense starts up front, and that was a strength for the first month and a half of the season, but now it is a weakness.   

I think a lot of it is the stretch plays. O coordinators figured out that Foster isn't fast enough to set the edge and the corners aren't good at it either. Now the D line is starting to second guess itself and that hesitation and playing read/react vs attack. The whole defense since 6-3 has just played so passively. They no longer can tackle, they no longer can finish a play when they're there and every running back and receiver seems to fall forward past the sticks.

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Warhead36

Warhead36

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The DL is big and strong at the point of attack, but they don't move well laterally and aren't particularly explosive off the ball. Still, at the very least its an above average DL with lots of potential.

 

The bigger issue is scheme. We are soooo vanilla on D. When was the last time you saw us run a DL stunt? Or someone do a swim move? Spin move? Its just bull rush after bull rush. You can't just have talent in the NFL, you need coaches who can create mismatches and figure stuff out too.

 

And of course: the ILB are well below average. Foster might be the slowest player in the league. Brown has good straight ahead speed but awful play recognition and no lateral quickness.

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JSSkinz

JSSkinz

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How did we end up here on defense, they've been pretty healthy all year, the most disappointing part is that it's the basics that are killing us and I think its just a lack of effort or caring.

 

On the last JP Finlay podcast this week the guys were talking about infighting between the defense, something about the D lineman having a rift with the LB's and secondary. 

 

Something is going on because there's no reason we should be playing this bad.

 

 

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Vanguard

Vanguard

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I don't think Ioannidis even played, he had to be injured but I heard nothing about it.  You'd think they would at least mention it, he leads the team in sacks.  I'm disappointed in the defense today.  I couldn't watch the game.  Only the last half of the fourth quarter.  

3 hours ago, dckey said:

Please no more threads like these until they do something for a complete season and not just a few games, Def line is not what we thought they were

 

I actually made it before they played any games.

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skinny21

skinny21

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16 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

How did we end up here on defense, they've been pretty healthy all year, the most disappointing part is that it's the basics that are killing us and I think its just a lack of effort or caring.

 

On the last JP Finlay podcast this week the guys were talking about infighting between the defense, something about the D lineman having a rift with the LB's and secondary. 

 

Something is going on because there's no reason we should be playing this bad.

 

 

If I had to guess, our corners are relatively poor, Foster is slow, and Brown isn’t instinctual, which means our dline is pretty consistently made to look bad - few chances at coverage sacks, and we get gashed on the ground.  

 

Too often offenses send a man in motion and the qb immediately knows where he’s going with the ball.  

 

Foster needs to be benched.  No hate for the guy, but it’s way too easy to pick on him when he’s doing anything but attacking the LOS (and it’s a run play up the gut).  JHC likely can’t attack the same way, but he’s faster, longer, and can play man coverage.  Don’t think he’s the answer either though.  Here’s hoping SDH gets in the game (I’d actually consider benching Brown and Foster for those two).  

 

I feel for Manusky a bit - it’s a pretty poor back 7 he’s got.  Play press man, and the other team gets chunk yards (and corners have their backs to run plays)... play off man/zone and they dink and dunk down the field.  

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SkinsGuy

SkinsGuy

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8 hours ago, Vanguard said:

I don't think Ioannidis even played, he had to be injured but I heard nothing about it.  You'd think they would at least mention it, he leads the team in sacks.  I'm disappointed in the defense today.  I couldn't watch the game.  Only the last half of the fourth quarter.  

 

Yes, Ioannidis was inactive last night (along with Dunbar) due to injury

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OVCChairman

OVCChairman

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The sad thing is that I feel like THIS defense has the talent to be a serious building block for years to come.  We have talent.  We're not the MOST talented in the league, but the D-line has the ceiling to be one of the best fronts in the NFL.  The last few weeks have been a struggle, but I'm not willing to look at them and say they're not good.  The answer to the original question in this thread is YES... this is the best defensive front we've had in years.  That's not saying it's dominant... YET.  That's not saying it's a championship defense right now either.  It is the best front we've had in a REALLY long time... I don't think you can argue that fact.  

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OVCChairman

OVCChairman

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1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Unfortunately most everything behind it isn’t very good at all. 

 

 

Yeah i have to agree.  This team is a lot like it's coach.  When the script is working... everything is great, but the minute things get a little cloudy, we fall apart.  I actually look at some of our pieces and am intrigued.  I think Stroman has far outplayed his draft position, and he can be an interesting piece as things go on.  He's not playing like a 7th round rookie.... 

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