Is this the most talented yet misused defensive front we've had in years?

[HTTRDynasty]

How speed to apply pressure affects overall pass-rushing

 

Quick pressure percentage, as the name suggests, is the percentage of passing plays where a defense registers quick pressure. Quick pressure is defined by pressure that comes in 2.5 seconds or less on any passing play. After finishing tied for second in average time to pressure, the Eagles lead the way here, and were the only team in the NFL to hit the 30 percent mark for quick pressures.

 

One interesting note to end on. Of the top 10 teams in quick pressure percentage, the Washington Redskins were the only team that didn’t have a player who graded among either the top-10 edge defenders or interior defensive linemen in 2017. Even then Ryan Kerrigan wasn’t too far away, with his 85.6 grade ranking 18th among edge defenders. As simplistic as it seems, having dominant players in your defensive front makes getting pressure quickly a lot easier.

 

[joeken24]

On 6/4/2018 at 11:02 PM, Vanguard said:

 

You're right.  I'd also like for them to cut Ziggy Hood.  To me, he's the only lineman that contributes nothing.  He may be a locker room leader, and a high character guy.  But he is a liability on the field.

So Tomsula mentioned Ziggy 28 seconds into his latest interview. He said Ziggy was playing out of position at the NT last year.

 

[volsmet]

Ion was a very disruptive pass rusher in college & his combine numbers are similar to Paynes, I loved the pick & obviously still do. I wish we still had Murphy, Im a big fan of him as well, but we should be excellent without him as we were to start 2017. I think we will have a top 5-7 defense in the league, I believe Payne will be the most popular defensive player in DC by years end. Allen & Ion were top 5 pass rushing interior DLs per pff at times in 2017, we coach guys to get up the field, Payne is going to be a pff darling. 

 

[LaRonDontLikeUgly]

Ziggs at NT is a joke- but he's not a horrible player by any means.  In my eyes, dude has GREAT instinct and perhaps the best play-recognition of any our DL-- just doesn't have the size/speed/athleticism to make the plays he wants to.  (Get pushed around almost every play.)

 

I have no idea about his salary/cap-hit, but I feel like his value lies in depth/leadership.  He will be on the 53 this year and make our young guys better.

[TSO]

8 minutes ago, LaRonDontLikeUgly said:

Ziggs at NT is a joke- but he's not a horrible player by any means.  In my eyes, dude has GREAT instinct and perhaps the best play-recognition of any our DL-- just doesn't have the size/speed/athleticism to make the plays he wants to.  (Get pushed around almost every play.)

 

I have no idea about his salary/cap-hit, but I feel like his value lies in depth/leadership.  He will be on the 53 this year and make our young guys better.

 

Agreed.

 

I’m interested in seeing, however, if there’s any change to his play this preseason at his natural position of DE when compared to last preseason (when he was mostly playing there as well and still got pushed around quite a bit).

 

Would be awesome if it turns out there were other reasons for it last year that have been negated this year (like learning Tomsula’s wants then vs. just reacting more instinctively now), and we see a guy who not only has those intangibles and smarts, but can physically outplay his opponents. Probably a long shot, but would be a major boost. 

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

18 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

I’m interested in seeing, however, if there’s any change to his play this preseason at his natural position of DE

Agreed.  Let's hope it works out like it did when we kicked TMurphy to DE...well, minus the PEDs/injury/left for another team stuff. 

 

I'm high on our defensive front potential, but I'm much more in wait and see mode than a lot of others.  It's just hard for me to get overly excited when two of the guys we're counting on being studs, JAllen/Ioannidis, were both out with injuries last year.  I think I'm a little more optimistic about Ioannidis, because a hand injury seems like more of a one off, but JAllen fell in the draft because of injury concerns (I know that was shoulder and this is toe, but still).  There was also a tidbit where Tomsula seemed concerned that Allen might not be able to stay healthy.

 

Add in two rookies in Payne/Settle, and I think our results could be all over the map.  I know there's always a "if we stay healthy" caveat when discussing these things.  I guess I'm just not as optimistic about staying healthy as others seem to be.  

 

I'm looking for RAnderson to make a sophomore leap, but we still lack a speed rusher.  Hopefully Kerrigan/Smith can be improved with better push up the middle.  

[HTTRDynasty]

 

“Man, he’s been everything you could ask for,” Thompson said.

 

Thompson has had a close-up view of Payne and has had the chance to really watch the tackle’s approach since he is still rehabbing from a leg injury he sustained last year.

 

“Watching him and Brandon [Scherff] go at it is a beautiful thing to behold and we’re talking about Daron going up against one of the best guards in the league,” Thompson said.

 

Other veterans have mentioned the strength that Payne possesses is off the charts. The rookie has also shown great technique in his hand placement and movement.

 

Another veteran player mentioned that Payne even looks to be a few weeks ahead of where last years first-round selection, Jonathan Allen, was heading into training camp. Allen went on to have a strong rookie outing before his season was cut short due to a Lisfranc (foot) injury.

 

 

[Koolblue13]

If he's really as good as they're saying he is, that really transforms our defense. 

[volsmet]

18 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

“Man, he’s been everything you could ask for,” Thompson said.

 

Thompson has had a close-up view of Payne and has had the chance to really watch the tackle’s approach since he is still rehabbing from a leg injury he sustained last year.

 

“Watching him and Brandon [Scherff] go at it is a beautiful thing to behold and we’re talking about Daron going up against one of the best guards in the league,” Thompson said.

 

Other veterans have mentioned the strength that Payne possesses is off the charts. The rookie has also shown great technique in his hand placement and movement.

 

Another veteran player mentioned that Payne even looks to be a few weeks ahead of where last years first-round selection, Jonathan Allen, was heading into training camp. Allen went on to have a strong rookie outing before his season was cut short due to a Lisfranc (foot) injury.

 

 

 

Payne will be the best interior DL for Washington in 2018 imo. He will prove he should have been taken in the top 5, at minimum. After watching each snap of his, I cant believe anyone thinks hes just a run stuffing NT, thats not even what hes going to be best at, much less will it be all be can do. On a front of freak athletes, he was almost always the first player off the ball & he can get through the line when he pleases. Imo, hes better than our very good DLs, Ion & Allen, today. He wont line up at NT as frequently as most anticipate, he can do too much to behind the los. We should go add Hankins & take things to a level not seen in DC in decades. 

 

Payne is going to put Travis Frederick on his ass, more than once. Mark it down. No more Zeke spoon feeding himself in Washington. 

[goskins10]

On 6/17/2018 at 1:24 AM, LaRonDontLikeUgly said:

Ziggs at NT is a joke- but he's not a horrible player by any means.  In my eyes, dude has GREAT instinct and perhaps the best play-recognition of any our DL-- just doesn't have the size/speed/athleticism to make the plays he wants to.  (Get pushed around almost every play.)

 

I have no idea about his salary/cap-hit, but I feel like his value lies in depth/leadership.  He will be on the 53 this year and make our young guys better.

 

Below is Ziggy's CAP hit per Overthecap. I tend to agree Hood will be on the 53 and he deserves it if we are to believe Tomsula. He made  not one, but several references to Hood playing out of position last year, taking one for the team. Before being forced to play NT, he was a pretty solid DE. 

 

To your point about leadership, he is very well respected by his teammates. I also expect him to make the final 53. 

 

 

[TSO]

That Payne fluff is mighty delicious right now. I’m excited, lol. If he can contribute right away at a top level, and Allen and Ioannidis stay healthy... ahhh, one can dream.  

[Vanguard]

Just now, thesubmittedone said:

That Payne fluff is mighty delicious right now. I’m excited, lol. If he can contribute right away at a top level, and Allen and Ioannidis stay healthy... ahhh, one can dream.  

 

I'm optimistic too.  Here's what PFF had to say when they scouted him.  The one game where he really got to pin his ears back, he looked "like a completely different player."  Not just a run stuffer.  Had 7 QB pressures in that one game.  

 

 

[TSO]

^^ That’s the hope, isn’t it?

 

If we get the Payne that played in the college championship games with any consistency...  

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Please don't forget us...

[volsmet]

On 6/18/2018 at 6:03 PM, Vanguard said:

 

I'm optimistic too.  Here's what PFF had to say when they scouted him.  The one game where he really got to pin his ears back, he looked "like a completely different player."  Not just a run stuffer.  Had 7 QB pressures in that one game.  

 

 

 

Which numbers are more impressive? I disagree that Allen is in another class & that Payne didnt show top 10 draft potential before the playoff. He was absolutely dominant v FSU. I enjoy pff, but I disagree with their thoughts on Payne. As always, we shall see. I was irate when we took Payne over Derwin, but it forced me to watch every snap of his & after doing so I dont see what scouts dont love about the guy. Hes one of the most uncomfortable assignments I have seen in a long time. Hes going to annihilate people on his way to becoming a pro bowler very early in his career. Its hard to overstate how much I hated this pick, but I was basing most of my thoughts about Payne on the utter lack of enthusiasm about him from places like pff. I saw him struggle, namely v LSU, but he just turned 21 & has rare explosion for a 311lb kid. Hes a freak of nature, but hes not spoken about as if he is. Giving these guys (Payne/Allen/Ion) to Tumsula is the worst thing to happen to Dallas since Sean Taylor was terrorizing TO. 

 

Httr

 

 

• 6ft 3 - 286
• 40 YARD DASH: 5.00 SEC
• BENCH PRESS: 21 REPS
• VERTICAL JUMP: 30.0 INCH
• BROAD JUMP: 108.0 INCH
• 3 CONE DRILL: 7.49 SEC
• 20 YARD SHUTTLE: 4.50 SEC

 

***

6ft 3 - 311lbs

• 40 YARD DASH: 4.95 SEC
• BENCH PRESS: 27 REPS
• VERTICAL JUMP: 28.5 INCH
• BROAD JUMP: 107.0 INCH
• 3 CONE DRILL: 7.58 SEC
• 20 YARD SHUTTLE: 4.71 SEC

 

AwgiNALYS

[Bonez3]

I'll highlight to 'highlights' that really don't speak to him as a football player but more of the athlete.

 

His reception in the NCG demonstrates Saban's trust at a skill position. This was not a fluke, Saban must have recognized this kids natural agility. His toe tap was nothing tho be overlooked.

 

Couple that play with his fumble recovery highlight. Has a quick inside step and looks like Todd Gurley in the open field. 

 

Why does this matter to me. Kid is athletic. Probably played skill positions in elementary level and still has inert agility. I am very excited to watch him demonstrate serious athleticism from the inside this year. Some posters keep going on about strength and conditioning concerns. Not me... the reports already about how strong he is encouraging and I have no doubts about his motor/athleticism. 

[Rogue Jedi]

I love all the replies/reactions from my Lang/Wilkinson/Stubblefield post.

 

Should've made the sarcasm more obvious. I was not being serious.

[HTTRDynasty]

Redskins had a player place top 5 in 3 of the 4 LB signature stats by PFF

 

In congruence with PFF’s Teaching Month, we’ll be taking a look at some of the top performances from all positions in the NFL from the 2017 season in our PFF Signature Statistics. Today’s feature focuses on the success among inside linebackers from last season in our major four signature stats categories for the position: run-stop percentage, pass-rush productivity, the coverage metric of passer rating when targeted and tackling efficiency.

 

 

RUN-STOP PERCENTAGE

1. Martrell Spaight, Washington Redskins – 14.6

Spaight logged 178 snaps against the run in 2017, registering 33 solo tackles and eight assists. His 26 run stops ranked as 21st-most in the league, however doing so on just 178 snaps against the run puts him atop this list. The former Arkansas standout missed just five tackles to go along with his 26 stops.

 

Pass-Rush Productivity

1. Mason Foster, Washington Redskins – 28.5

Foster finished sixth in sacks at the position and fifth in hurries. His PRP of 28.5 topped all inside linebackers who rushed the passer at least 15 times a season ago.

 

PASSER RATING WHEN TARGETED

3. Zach Vigil, Washington Redskins – 77.5

Vigil allowed just 149 yards as the primary coverage defender, finishing second among all inside linebackers in 2017. He did this despite being one of the more heavily targeted players at the position, seeing a targeted pass come his way every 6.1 snaps he spent in coverage (ninth in the league).

 

[HardcoreZorn]

I legitimately think our Front 7 might be one of the best in football this year. I thought that we were up there pre injury last year, but adding Payne and getting those guys back has me really excited to see what they can all do. 

 

I too was pissed when we passed on Derwin. But flashy hybrid guys like him come along fairly often. Freaks of nature that can hold the POA are harder to come by. Still think Derwin will be a star, but if Payne becomes a probowl interior DL I think we made the right pick.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, HardcoreZorn said:

I legitimately think our Front 7 might be one of the best in football this year. I thought that we were up there pre injury last year, but adding Payne and getting those guys back has me really excited to see what they can all do. 

 

I too was pissed when we passed on Derwin. But flashy hybrid guys like him come along fairly often. Freaks of nature that can hold the POA are harder to come by. Still think Derwin will be a star, but if Payne becomes a probowl interior DL I think we made the right pick.

 

James to me is a hybrid on steroids.  One of the reasons why I loved him and Fitzpatrick is because they can do it all -- both are even pass rushing threats, too.  Great character-leader.   

 

Supposedly, Jay might have wanted Edmonds.   I recall Keim saying he heard they were 50-50 between Edmonds and Payne when he picked Edmonds over Payne in the ESPN mock draft where he picked for the Redskins.  Edmonds is a freak.  And the way Manusky likes to do his double A gap blitzes with the MLBs -- if Edmonds is the pass rushing wrecking ball that some expect him to be -- that would have been an interesting and fun pick.  When they asked personnel people around the league to judge other teams drafts, as for the Redskins the personnel guy from another team said he'd have taken Edmonds over Payne. 

 

In theory, I'd rather have a stud DT over a safety or a MLB.  On the FA thread I am a DT fanatic so if anything I am over the top about that position.  I am just not sure that Payne is a stud.  But I am not a scout so hopefully I am wrong in the thought that he's a good player not a great one.   So far I've heard good things about him in camp.  So happy about that. 

 

Jay's comment of Payne is everything he thought he would be while Guice is everything he thought he would be and more -- does that mean he's been more impressed with Guice?  I am a much bigger Guice than Payne guy so that comment made me pause.  Maybe that was his way to go out of his way to be extra nice to Guice. Who knows?

 

If Payne is everything volsmet says he is -- then that would be incredible.   I hope so. Because yeah for me its D line, D line, D line. 

[Renegade7]

On 6/18/2018 at 3:06 PM, Koolblue13 said:

If he's really as good as they're saying he is, that really transforms fixes our defense. 

 

That's what comes to mind as well.  For a great 3-4, you need a great NT.  I wish we would get Hankins and ball out with him and Allen as the D-Line.

[HTTRDynasty]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

When they asked personnel people around the league to judge other teams drafts, as for the Redskins the personnel guy from another team said he'd have taken Edmonds over Payne. 

 

I've seen you reference this a couple times elsewhere, but I don't think I've ever seen it, only the article grading other teams' offseasons as a whole.  Can you link this?  I'd be interested in reading it.  

[Vanguard]

On ‎6‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 8:55 PM, Skinsinparadise said:

 

James to me is a hybrid on steroids.  One of the reasons why I loved him and Fitzpatrick is because they can do it all -- both are even pass rushing threats, too.  Great character-leader.   

 

Supposedly, Jay might have wanted Edmonds.   I recall Keim saying he heard they were 50-50 between Edmonds and Payne when he picked Edmonds over Payne in the ESPN mock draft where he picked for the Redskins.  Edmonds is a freak.  And the way Manusky likes to do his double A gap blitzes with the MLBs -- if Edmonds is the pass rushing wrecking ball that some expect him to be -- that would have been an interesting and fun pick.  When they asked personnel people around the league to judge other teams drafts, as for the Redskins the personnel guy from another team said he'd have taken Edmonds over Payne.  

 

 

I'm not saying you're wrong.  But the nfl executives on nfl.com seem to think Payne plays extremely hard, and is the best run stuffer in the draft.  And that he has the potential to be a good pass rusher.  Here's the quote:

 

 

"I think A'Shawn Robinson was more talented than Da'Ron (Payne) and I know Robinson had better (tackle-for-loss) and sack production than him, but Payne plays harder and I think he'll be the better NFL player. He's thick and strong, but he's also a really good athlete and I see his best football in front of him." - NFC executive

 

 

[Koolblue13]

9 hours ago, Vanguard said:

 

 

I'm not saying you're wrong.  But the nfl executives on nfl.com seem to think Payne plays extremely hard, and is the best run stuffer in the draft.  And that he has the potential to be a good pass rusher.  Here's the quote:

 

 

"I think A'Shawn Robinson was more talented than Da'Ron (Payne) and I know Robinson had better (tackle-for-loss) and sack production than him, but Payne plays harder and I think he'll be the better NFL player. He's thick and strong, but he's also a really good athlete and I see his best football in front of him." - NFC executive

 

 

All of those guys coming from the middle of the Bama front have been homerun draft picks. If Payne is just as good as Robinson, we nailed it. 

[dcdiscokid]

Found this article on Football Outsiders to be an interesting read.  Not realy redskins related but more league wide data about formations and percentages. Wasn't sure where to put it so since this is an active defense thread figured I'd throw it here.

 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/2017-defensive-personnel-analysis