Miami Herald: I’m done trying to understand Trump supporters. Why don’t they try to understand me?

[Larry]

2 hours ago, youngestson said:

I know. It's odd that Neo-Cons and Trumpites allegedly hate wasteful government spending, especially on public (government) schools, but have NO problem shelling out millions and millions for coaches at state universities. 

I enjoy college sports as much as the next guy, but something has to give.

 

End of personal rant. 

 

This whole thing is OT, but I'll point out that the coaches getting millions and millions aren't getting a dime from the university, or the taxpayers. (At least not directly). 

[youngestson]

4 hours ago, Larry said:

 

This whole thing is OT, but I'll point out that the coaches getting millions and millions aren't getting a dime from the university, or the taxpayers. (At least not directly). 

Yeah, it was the wrong place for me to bring it up.

[LD0506]

[LD0506]

 

 

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

On 12/26/2018 at 10:07 AM, Zguy28 said:

This optimist seems to take a different view than the OP.

 

https://aeon.co/ideas/reach-out-listen-be-patient-good-arguments-can-stop-extremism

The truth is somewhere in between and it’s not optimistic. The views of Trump supporters can in fact be altered but not with patience and good arguments. You have to remember that these are people who, quite obviously, are easily manipulated. I’m really not interested in tricking idiots into thinking they believe something though.

[LD0506]

[Burgold]

I made the mistake in engaging in a twitter dialogue with some real MAGA types a little while ago. It is phenomenal what they believe and how brainwashed they sound. Sigh.

[MisterPinstripe]

11 hours ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

The truth is somewhere in between and it’s not optimistic. The views of Trump supporters can in fact be altered but not with patience and good arguments. You have to remember that these are people who, quite obviously, are easily manipulated. I’m really not interested in tricking idiots into thinking they believe something though.

I think Megan Phelps Roper is the proof that that is wrong. But we get all caught up in telling people how stupid and horrible they are are because its easier and doesnt take as long as having an actual conversation over a long period of time.

 

If the guy who started talking with her took this view then she would probably still be stuck there. Her TED talk is worth the listen.

 

Kindness is harder as sometimes its not as satisfying initially as lashing out and because it takes longer and a whole lot more effort and commitment. But the affect is way more powerful.

Edited January 2, 2019 by MisterPinstripe

[mcsluggo]

the truth of the matter is that Trumps specific strategy is to sow chaos... and to break down reliance on expertise, and faith in cornerstone institutions of society.    and the asshat wins by breaking apart reasonable discussion. 

 

Chaos feeds chaos, and he can only (relatively) thrive in chaos. 

 

but... somebody needs to keep being the adult in the room.   

[NoCalMike]

1 hour ago, mcsluggo said:

the truth of the matter is that Trumps specific strategy is to sow chaos... and to break down reliance on expertise, and faith in cornerstone institutions of society.    and the asshat wins by breaking apart reasonable discussion. 

 

Chaos feeds chaos, and he can only (relatively) thrive in chaos. 

 

but... somebody needs to keep being the adult in the room.   

 

Exactly.  Trump, and actually right-wing media on the whole (generally speaking) has had a strategy for 30 years. Most assume it started with Rush, but I am sure it pre-dates him as well.  The strategy is to convince people to stop listening to the experts and people who have the actual knowledge and instead listen to Joe Six Pack with a radio show as the "real hard-hitting journalist"

 

We see this every time a GOPer tries to argue Climate Change.  "Well, I'm not a scientist...."   Ok well 99% of scientists say...... "Yeah but what about that one guy...."

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

1 hour ago, MisterPinstripe said:

I think Megan Phelps Roper is the proof that that is wrong.

The other 60 million people are proof that I'm right. I appreciate your optimism though.

[MisterPinstripe]

1 hour ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

The other 60 million people are proof that I'm right. I appreciate your optimism though.

Of course its not going to work for everyone, agreed there. But how many of that 60 million people can you change the mind of by taking the time to be kind and talk with them? If you scream or yell at 60 million people saying how stupid and awful they all are how many minds are you going to change? If treat those same 60 million people with kindness and have actual discussion do you think you will change more minds? Less? The same? The question I guess becomes do we view that as worth it? And it shouldnt even be about getting everyone to think like you, but just behaving that way can open peoples eyes. That may just be softening on stances, seeing the other point of view and coming up with good compromises, etc.

 

Just seems to me in this world of the other side is evil its just going to get worse and worse and civility will be lost when we just look at those other people as our enemy. And then in the political rhealm that mindset will mean that every time the election swaps to the other party we just dismantle what the previous people did as they are evil. Wash, rinse, repeat. And then where are we? Thats no way to run a government, a country, and just in general no way to treat people in civilized society.

 

The loss of civility, the loss of being able to disagree but still be friendly, the loss of discussions, etc will keep digging a deeper hole. Politics are a symptom of society in my mind, so for this to really change I think its on the people to really think about how we relate to each other.

 

I know Im rambling so Ill stop, but unless this changes on a personal level we wont see changes higher up. I would bet that if Democrats and Republicans in general didnt hate each other and see each other as the enemy that Trump wouldnt be the President.

 

Perhaps I am naive, but I think the evidence shows that hate breeds more hate and kindness, love, and respect breed the same. The exceptions to this do not make the rule.

[Llevron]

34 minutes ago, MisterPinstripe said:

Perhaps I am naive, but I think the evidence shows that hate breeds more hate and kindness, love, and respect breed the same. The exceptions to this do not make the rule.

 

I dont think you are overly naive, but you have to address the exceptions. You cant just leave them alone. 

 

Thats what we did with the people on the right that thought that other races should be excluded from this country just because they are other races. Look how mainstream that idea is now. And it doesnt even have to be because "racist" but how many misinformed people does it take for the exception to become a rule, even if they dont understand it themselves? 

 

You have to address it. And sometimes love and respect isnt going to work. I think this is one of those times. Evil exists. You have to be able to identify it and then take action in order to stop it. 

[MisterPinstripe]

19 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

I dont think you are overly naive, but you have to address the exceptions. You cant just leave them alone. 

 

Thats what we did with the people on the right that thought that other races should be excluded from this country just because they are other races. Look how mainstream that idea is now. And it doesnt even have to be because "racist" but how many misinformed people does it take for the exception to become a rule, even if they dont understand it themselves? 

 

You have to address it. And sometimes love and respect isnt going to work. I think this is one of those times. Evil exists. You have to be able to identify it and then take action in order to stop it. 

Sure, I think it should and has to be addressed, you cant ignore people doing awful things. Being kind and showing love and respect does not mean at all you dont call stuff out and condemn evil, which I do think lots of times that's how people connect the two. And there are plenty of people that will still be awful, but I think a lot more people would respond well. Just think about in your personal lives, if you are yelling and telling someone how awful they are and cussing at them do they stop and think, hmmm good points? How many people are there like Megan Phelps Roper who we would think, man those are awful evil people: but if someone reached out to them we would discover thats not the case? She didnt open her mind because people yelled at her, she opened her mind because she noticed how differently this guy was interacting her from what she was expecting and had been told and wanted to find out more.

 

People do not respond when treated that way, they just get defensive. However if you approach them differently then you can start getting through to them, getting them to think about it, build a relationship and thus trust with them so they can hear you.

 

There are awful people out there, but we can weed those out by changing how we deal with people and thus those people from the hate. EVEN if its a minority of that 60 million I think its worth it.

 

I am all on board with condemning awful things, etc. I just dont think doing that to yell and scream and hate people will change much or be effective. Look around on the web for stories of ex KKK members and why they ended up leaving, you will find lots of stories of someone showing them kindness and love and that started the change.

 

So what is the action that we should take that you think would stop it or help stop it?

Edited January 2, 2019 by MisterPinstripe

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

11 hours ago, MisterPinstripe said:

But how many of that 60 million people can you change the mind of by taking the time to be kind and talk with them? If you scream or yell at 60 million people saying how stupid and awful they all are how many minds are you going to change?

Zero. I totally agree. I just don't think that those people's beliefs are shaped by kindness and logic. If that were the case, they wouldn't be Trump supporters in the first place.

 

You can change their minds, you just have to manipulate them. These are people who don't think for themselves. Not being a dick... it's just the reality of the situation.

[Burgold]

Here’s the thing, you shouldn’t have to explain it to Trump followers, they should be able to see it themselves. 

 

Charlottesville was bad. Neonazis marching and murdering people with their cars is bad. 

 

Ignoring Puerto Rico and contributing to mass suffering and death is bad. 

 

Forcibly separating parents from children, putting children in interment camps under inhumane conditions is bad. Not knowing how to reunite the families is bad. 

 

I could go on, but this isn’t about the hurt feelings of fragile little MAGA snowflakes. It’s about people who knowingly embrace, support, or choose to ignore acts of evil. 

 

They can can see it for themselves. It’s being done out in the open. And they are not only okay with it, but gung ho about it. 

 

[Bang]

Those 60 million people are much much much more interested in feeding their hate than they are in listening to anything else. They love hate and what it does to you and their perceived enemies far more than they love everything else they claim to love. They have slid their "morals" around to accommodate it like it's second nature to them, because it is.

 

A junkie is always a junkie. Forever.

 

We got a one-day-at-a-time program for people addicted to hate?

 

~Bang

 

 

Edited January 3, 2019 by Bang

[MisterPinstripe]

5 hours ago, Burgold said:

Here’s the thing, you shouldn’t have to explain it to Trump followers, they should be able to see it themselves. 

 

Charlottesville was bad. Neonazis marching and murdering people with their cars is bad. 

 

Ignoring Puerto Rico and contributing to mass suffering and death is bad. 

 

Forcibly separating parents from children, putting children in interment camps under inhumane conditions is bad. Not knowing how to reunite the families is bad. 

 

I could go on, but this isn’t about the hurt feelings of fragile little MAGA snowflakes. It’s about people who knowingly embrace, support, or choose to ignore acts of evil. 

 

They can can see it for themselves. It’s being done out in the open. And they are not only okay with it, but gung ho about it. 

 

So do we really think that all of the people who voted for Trump think that stuff is okay? I know people who voted for Trump who dont think that and a number over time have come around on him, but not because people were calling them racist idiots. And I know some people that continue to support him because of the letter next to his name. And there are definitely a large number that are racists as evidenced by the stuff in Charlottesville.

 

Generalizing people tends to be a bad thing that causes more issues. Its easier to hate people and to lash out at them. I seem to keep re-hashing this so Ill stop saying it over and over again, I just think if we want to change people we need to change their hearts and that wont happen by generalizing whole groups of people as evil.

[LD0506]

There will always be a hard core of trogs that will support the * no matter what. In April '45,with Berlin being pounded to dust, the Allies across the Rhine, the Russian steamroller at the gates, there were STILL ardent Nazis lining up to get a Mauser w/ 2 bullets and marching three city blocks to the front singing "Deutschland, Deutschland über alles".

 

All the soft-n-cuddlies in der welt ain't gonna change them.

[Burgold]

31 minutes ago, MisterPinstripe said:

So do we really think that all of the people who voted for Trump think that stuff is okay? I know people who voted for Trump who dont think that and a number over time have come around on him, but not because people were calling them racist idiots. And I know some people that continue to support him because of the letter next to his name. And there are definitely a large number that are racists as evidenced by the stuff in Charlottesville.

 

Generalizing people tends to be a bad thing that causes more issues. Its easier to hate people and to lash out at them. I seem to keep re-hashing this so Ill stop saying it over and over again, I just think if we want to change people we need to change their hearts and that wont happen by generalizing whole groups of people as evil.

Oh, poor baby. Do you realize that conservatives get about 5% of the grief that they hand out? For more than forty years, liberals have been called the enemy of America and a thousand times worse by conservatives, conservative media, etc. Generally speaking, they use Democrat, democratic, and liberal as swear words. I really have no sympathy for the anti-PC party crying about how the other side is using mean words about them when their party is actively performing acts of evil.

 

You asked- "Do we really think that all of the people who voted for Trump think that stuff is okay?" My answer is yes for all those who still support him. If not, they need to speak up, act up, and make their disgruntlement heard. Passive neglect is an endorsement. Voting for more of the same is an endorsement.

 

If you voted for Trump, if you nominated a Nazi to represent you in Illinois, if you have failed to act. Yes, this is your face in the mirror. Own it or change it. Don't whine that others are exposing your party's faults.

[Zguy28]

1 hour ago, Burgold said:

Oh, poor baby. Do you realize that conservatives get about 5% of the grief that they hand out? For more than forty years, liberals have been called the enemy of America and a thousand times worse by conservatives, conservative media, etc. Generally speaking, they use Democrat, democratic, and liberal as swear words. I really have no sympathy for the anti-PC party crying about how the other side is using mean words about them when their party is actively performing acts of evil.

 

You asked- "Do we really think that all of the people who voted for Trump think that stuff is okay?" My answer is yes for all those who still support him. If not, they need to speak up, act up, and make their disgruntlement heard. Passive neglect is an endorsement. Voting for more of the same is an endorsement.

 

If you voted for Trump, if you nominated a Nazi to represent you in Illinois, if you have failed to act. Yes, this is your face in the mirror. Own it or change it. Don't whine that others are exposing your party's faults.

Who are you exposing them too Burgold? People who already see it like you. At this point that's all you do. And it plays into your enemy's hands.

[PleaseBlitz]

1 hour ago, LD0506 said:

There will always be a hard core of trogs that will support the * no matter what. In April '45,with Berlin being pounded to dust, the Allies across the Rhine, the Russian steamroller at the gates, there were STILL ardent Nazis lining up to get a Mauser w/ 2 bullets and marching three city blocks to the front singing "Deutschland, Deutschland über alles".

 

All the soft-n-cuddlies in der welt ain't gonna change them.

 

Agree.  

 

The solution is not changing those people, however.  They are too far gone.  The solution is for the good, decent, rational people to collectively reject those other people (esp. the roughly 40% of eligible people that did not vote in 2016 and most other elections).  

Edited January 3, 2019 by PleaseBlitz

[MisterPinstripe]

2 hours ago, Burgold said:

Oh, poor baby. Do you realize that conservatives get about 5% of the grief that they hand out? For more than forty years, liberals have been called the enemy of America and a thousand times worse by conservatives, conservative media, etc. Generally speaking, they use Democrat, democratic, and liberal as swear words. I really have no sympathy for the anti-PC party crying about how the other side is using mean words about them when their party is actively performing acts of evil.

 

You asked- "Do we really think that all of the people who voted for Trump think that stuff is okay?" My answer is yes for all those who still support him. If not, they need to speak up, act up, and make their disgruntlement heard. Passive neglect is an endorsement. Voting for more of the same is an endorsement.

 

If you voted for Trump, if you nominated a Nazi to represent you in Illinois, if you have failed to act. Yes, this is your face in the mirror. Own it or change it. Don't whine that others are exposing your party's faults.

Are you really resorting to calling me names because I think responding with kindness gets more results then being hateful? When did that become controversial?

[Dan T.]

2 hours ago, LD0506 said:

There will always be a hard core of trogs that will support the * no matter what. In April '45,with Berlin being pounded to dust, the Allies across the Rhine, the Russian steamroller at the gates, there were STILL ardent Nazis lining up to get a Mauser w/ 2 bullets and marching three city blocks to the front singing "Deutschland, Deutschland über alles".

 

All the soft-n-cuddlies in der welt ain't gonna change them.

 

29 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

Agree.  

 

The solution is not changing those people, however.  They are too far gone.  The solution is for the good, decent, rational people to collectively reject those other people (esp. the roughly 40% of eligible people that did not vote in 2016 and most other elections).  

 

 

Just don't call it the final solution.  

[Burgold]

1 hour ago, Zguy28 said:

Who are you exposing them too Burgold? People who already see it like you. At this point that's all you do. And it plays into your enemy's hands.

I don't need to be expose anything. It's all in the open. They see it all.  They chose to embrace these acts of evil, of depravity. 

 

You're a man of God, Zguy. You can't tell me you see what your government is doing to children in Interment Camps and think it's okay? You can't tell me you think that what they did in Puerto Rico is okay? You can't think that condoning murder by Nazis  in Charlottesville is okay?

 

Locking children in kennels after forcibly separating them from their parents, keeping them in inhumane conditions, and allowing them to starve, and in some cases die and not even bothering to keep records so you may be able to reunite them one day... is that something you look at and say. I support this. I embrace this.

 

If you need me to tell you that's wrong and you can't see it for yourself... I don't know what to tell you. If you tell me that I'm at fault for you not explaining to you nicely enough how this is wrong... I don't know what to tell you. And frankly, knowing you to the degree I do, I don't believe you condone and embrace this.

 

40 minutes ago, MisterPinstripe said:

Are you really resorting to calling me names because I think responding with kindness gets more results then being hateful? When did that become controversial?

Frankly, the followers of President Trump chiding people for not being kind is laughable. Are they ever polite? Do they ever not insult? 

Talk about people can dish it, but not take it. The thing that angers the supporters of the GOP and Donald Trump is that they are guilty of everything they ever pretended the Democrats were in their worst tin foil conspiracy-laden ravings.

 

Besides, calling them exactly what they are is not insulting them. It's what they praised Donald Trump for doing. It's giving them what they say they want.