What to do with LG

[MassSkinsFan]

1 hour ago, NickyJ said:

Exactly the point I'm getting at. Our offense sucked during 2013 and 2014, including the QBs. More sacks or less, the offense was trash and our record reflected it. In 2015, we get 2 new starters on the O-Line and we make the playoffs, all under the same QB who got benched after playing so badly in 2014. It is not a coincidence. The skill difference between Chester-Polumbus and Scherff-Moses is massive.

 

I feel the same way when comparing Roullier to Spencer Long, Bergstrom or Rhaney.

 

Frankly, barring a repeat of the massive wave of injuries, I am really excited - no, PUMPED - about our OL, despite not seeming to have the answer (yet) at LG. Some prognosticators are saying it will be Nsekhe. I think that might actually work. 

 

PUMPED I tell ya!!!!!!!!!!!!

[goskins10]

11 hours ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

Edit

 

 

 

I hope this works but we were sold Jones and Perine as the solution to our running woes also and I'm not jumping up on the bandwagon this time.

 

You did not answer the question. What OG are you taking at 44? I will add another one, are you sure Christian cannot play G? Many of the other "Gs" taken were OT in college. And several - including the ones we could have taken at 44 or beyond are all 6' 6", the magic reason that TY and Christian cannot play G. 

 

I presented the options above but will be more specific. And you be the GM: 

 

You could have gone G at #13 - Nelson was off the board. My next highest G was Hernandez even though Corbett went just before him. Both went in the top of the 2nd rd. So, assuming no trades as it takes two to tango - are you taking someone like Hernandez at 13? With talent like James, Tremaine Edmunds, Jaire Alexander - to reach for G?

 

Let's move to #44. We could try to trade up. But without a 3rd already, what do we have to offer? Along with switching places in the 2nd, to move to say 35 or 36 (although I think those Gs taken after Hernandez were taken too high, but that's just me) you lose at least the 4th (#109) and your 5th (#163). Draft chart shows #35 worth 550, #44 worth 460, #109 worth 76, #163 worth 25.8 - so 550 vs 561.8 - not likely as the person trading down is going to want more value. But it's make believe so let's assume it can be done. 

 

Or you can pick at #44. The next G after the ones taken before 44 was Alex Cappa from Humbolt State. Nice potential but never played good quality opponents, plays a bit clumsy and typically won with strength. BTW: He is 6' 6". the big complaint about Ty or Christain not playing G. Not saying he can't be coached but clearly a project. You want that at 44? He was taken at 94 BTW. Anyone else is a converted T and there were not that many talented Ts I would have wanted to use the pick on anyway. And if you do that you don't get Guice or the 3rd pick we picked up. 

 

Or you trade down at #44. Let's say we get the same trade. So are you taking Cappa at 59 instead of Guice?  That's still 35 spots early for a project over a RB that has the potential of being transformational. Do you take Cappa at 74 instead of Christian? Christian is clearly the better athlete and has much more potential. Also, you have all 3 of your tackles were injured last year. I would rather limp at G than T any day.  

 

You be the GM. What would you do and when and why? I mean that as an honest question. It's the off-season and time to pontificate. Have some fun. What would you have done differently? 

 

 

Last but not least. Perine and Guice are not in the same stratosphere by any stretch of the imagination. Perine was a 4th rd back that we all hoped would be our Kamara. Guice is crazy more talented than Perine. It's really night and day. 

[Darrell Green Fan]

4 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

I asked this question last year when people complained about not drafting specific positions. The next G drafted after Guice at 59, was Alex Cappa at 94. We took Christian (OT) at 74. So, if we take G at 59, then it's at least 35 to 40 spots early. Not exactly good value for that pick position. It's still 20 spots too early at 74 when we picked Christian. Cappa IMO was still a stretch at 94. He has seen no NFL level competition. He won mostly with power. And BTW he is 6' 6" the reason being used by many that neither Ty or Christian cannot possibly be Gs. 

 

The only other options based on who was selected was either go G at 13 - or possibly trade down - but you need a partner. Or stay at 44 and take Conner Williams who is also listed as a T and is 6' 6". But then you don't have Guice or a 3rd rd pick. Two for one. 

 

So when people say - we should have taken G at ??? When you actually look at who was available at that time, it's just not that easy. So to take a G you either do not take Payne or Guice. What i would have liked is if they were more aggressive in free agency for a G. 

 

Having said that, I have to believe they think they have their starting LG in house. I know people keep saying why they think it can;t happen, but I still believe that it's either Ty or even TW with Ty at LT. 

 

Thanks for putting in the work, this is an excellent post and makes me feel better about their decision making.  

[Tarpon75]

On 16/05/2018 at 7:09 AM, carex said:

 

because they thought he was better than any of the guards available

So from when they picked in the 3rd round back through the 7th there was not one guard or center with more potential than the tackle whom,from reports needs to work on strength in both upper and lower body? There was not one free agent that might have panned out? I really like the off-season that the team has had, just believe that they have let that position languish for too long.

[skinny21]

7 hours ago, Tarpon75 said:

So from when they picked in the 3rd round back through the 7th there was not one guard or center with more potential than the tackle whom,from reports needs to work on strength in both upper and lower body? There was not one free agent that might have panned out? I really like the off-season that the team has had, just believe that they have let that position languish for too long.

I find myself waffling between this position/opinion, and the idea that it just didn’t work out for them.  Like, I can buy that there wasn’t a guard that was close to the grade they had on the guys they picked.  I can also buy that they liked the value they had (and growth they’d seen) in Kouandijo as well as the potential in Kalis and Catalina.  

 

On the other hand, they couldn’t trade back a bit?  They couldn’t trade for someone else’s guard?  They couldn’t move up a bit with a pick to find one they liked?

 

I’m gonna give them the benefit of the doubt for now though.  Doesn’t mean they’re fine with what they’ve got (or what they had with Kouandijo and Welsh in the mix), but as I said, perhaps it just didn’t work out.  

 

My hope is that Kalis or Catalina earn the job and, while they might be/will be the weak link, perhaps they can grow into a decent starter with more time/experience.  

[redskinss]

The Vinny cerrato redskins would have signed jahri Evans two months ago to a 3 year 21 million dollar contract or traded two high draft picks for a player that was obviously not wanted by the team willing to trade him away.

We finally seem to be doing what the good teams do and despite it be worrisome I'm excited about it. 

We are building through the draft and relying on young unproven talent to step up and fill the holes. 

All teams have holes even the best in the leauge but the thing that seperates the best from the worst is the really good teams know where to focus their resources and  where its ok to be a little weak. 

 

I have confidence that if we stay healthy the offensive line will work out just fine. 

[Tarpon75]

5 hours ago, skinny21 said:

I find myself waffling between this position/opinion, and the idea that it just didn’t work out for them.  Like, I can buy that there wasn’t a guard that was close to the grade they had on the guys they picked.  I can also buy that they liked the value they had (and growth they’d seen) in Kouandijo as well as the potential in Kalis and Catalina.  

 

On the other hand, they couldn’t trade back a bit?  They couldn’t trade for someone else’s guard?  They couldn’t move up a bit with a pick to find one they liked?

 

I’m gonna give them the benefit of the doubt for now though.  Doesn’t mean they’re fine with what they’ve got (or what they had with Kouandijo and Welsh in the mix), but as I said, perhaps it just didn’t work out.  

 

My hope is that Kalis or Catalina earn the job and, while they might be/will be the weak link, perhaps they can grow into a decent starter with more time/experience.  

Hope you are right,just can’t see it as of now. Guess there is still a possibility or maybe someone becomes available from another team either through cuts or a trade.

[OlufemiBiz]

On 4/30/2018 at 9:08 AM, Wyvern said:

There are some possibilities:  Arie K., Kalis, and the UDFA Sean Welsh (Iowa) are a few the Skins have in-house.

 

Open market:  I suspect the Skins could re-sign Lauvao to a very cheap contract, and sadly he's one of the better free agents still available.

 

its possible the Skins are looking for guards who might get released soon, or as a last resort, late pre-season waiver-wires.

 

I don't see the Skins trading for a decent guard.  I suspect the Skins FO are relying on Callahan to coach one up from the grab-bag they've given him to work with.

 

*If LG ARIE KOUANDJO #60 is able to play like THIS -- CONSISTENTLY, We SHOULD be 'AH-ITE'.

 

 

*I went back and perused some of T.J. CLEMMING's film and gleaned this:

 

-- He was a RT, in college (Pittsburgh)... 

-- RT's aren't ideally suited for LT (a vastly different dynamic)...

-- I think he may fibd a home, at LG!?!

 

 

 

[joeken24]

On 4/30/2018 at 9:11 AM, SemperFi Skins said:

Ty can't be a good idea.... he's 6'9. He's the perfect tackle, not inside Guard

We all remember when Trent was ask to move inside and Ty played tackle. They absolutely road graded the defense. I think Ty creates a bit of an issue with providing throwing lanes in the pass game. But in the run game, I think Darrius is going to lose his mind! At least I hope so.

 

[skins_warrior]

On 5/8/2018 at 1:08 PM, KillBill26 said:

 

Agreed 100%.  To upgrade every weakness in one offseason for a team below .500 is not realistic.  I do not think much of Lauvoa as a starting LG for 2018 (and wouldn't be surprised if he was cut by the opener), but overall, i love what the Redskins did this offseason as a whole.  Not only did they upgrade several key areas, they did it responsibly with value contracts and draft picks.  They also did it with an eye towards the future: they are in position to afford an extension for both Preston and Crowder if they wish.  Which means they could potentially be entering next offseason with only several key areas to focus on: definitely LG/C, then sprinkle in depth at TE, WR, ILB, secondary.  Maybe even draft QB of the future if there is good value.  

 

The LG conversation reminds me of the NT conversation from just a month ago: people panic because that hole is not filled today.  Great teams who are in the playoffs year in and year out are built the right way over time. If we enter the 2018 season with a Lauvao vs Arie vs Kalis vs Welsh competition, that is not the end of the world.  I agree with the move to not attempt to outbid for Norwell's services, too much $$$ on o-line which would affect Redskins ability to keep good young players in next year or two. 

 

This offseason has to be considered a success when you consider the upgrades vs. the cost, along with maintaining cap flexibility for the future.  An "all-in" approach to plug every hole (i.e. signing Norwell) in an attempt to make a run at a title in 2018 would not have gotten the Skins a title this year, and would have negatively impacted the future.  Some options I've seen discussed on here are Alex Boone, but he was cut by Minn for being out of shape, do we want an aging vet with issues staying in shape?  No thanks, I'd rather see the young guys battle it out (and as I said, Lauvao may get cut too, and his dead cap, if any, will not be significant).  As for Jahri Evans, sounds like he would like to return to G Bay, and was quoted as saying he wants to win a Super Bowl.  I'm not sure players around the league view the Redskins as being a contender for 2018.

 

https://www.twincities.com/2017/09/08/former-vikings-lb-chad-greenway-says-alex-boone-cut-due-to-being-out-of-shape/

 

https://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2018/04/04/jahri-evans-willing-play-waiting-game-packers/486106002/

 

I know I am in the minority here, and I don't care who has what title in the front office and who voted for what pick, but overall, I love the Redskins approach to building this team.  If we see the same team that was playing so well last September, but only better with the upgrades we've made, the Redskins will have the potential to beat anybody in 2018.

 

 

Nice analysis. I’d add that in anticipation to next year CB will become a need as we may look to move on from Norman $. However I do like Norman.

On 5/8/2018 at 1:48 PM, skinny21 said:

One angle to keep in mind regarding the LG position, but any position of need generally...

 

Relatively recently:

 

We needed a slot corner and wound up with Fuller, and now Holsey/Stroman.  

 

We needed olinemen and now have Scherff, Moses and Roullier.  

 

We needed dline (and NT specifically), we now have two guys - Payne/Settle - that can play nose, and drafted Allen and Ioannidas before that.  

 

We needed a qb and drafted two, then we traded for another.  

 

We needed to strengthen the middle of the D, and subsequently signed Brown and Swearinger, and drafted Nicholson and now Apke (along with the interior dline draftees). 

 

My overall point is not to praise the FO, but to point out that they have tended to recognize and address the needs, and they sometimes do it fairly aggressively.  Doesn’t always work out obviously.  

 

Long story short, it’s hard for me to ding them too much in this situation as they had numerous needs (didn’t address outside corner and speed rusher either, but addressed quite a few needs), limited resources, and limited options - in terms of cap space/draft picks and available guards in the draft/FA.  

 

Here’s hoping someone surprises in the LG battle and we can put this specific issue behind us.  If not, hopefully we can work around the weakness and upgrade next season.  

 

Great points. Well said.

 

In regards to LG, at this point it’s just a difference of opinion on how much a priority LG was this offseason vs. options available to them vs. level of chronic situation our rushing offense has been under Gruden error. We are dead last in league in rushing offense under Gruden.

 

However, the future of the league is passing game and we have steadily been an impressive top 5.

[skins_warrior]

On 5/8/2018 at 12:06 PM, OVCChairman said:

Clearly the team understands what we have isn't good enough, or they wouldn't have let Lauvoa walk and then brought him back.  I'd imagine this is an emphasis to upgrade in the near future... the problem is that it doesn't appear a real upgrade is available at this point.   I'd assume that nothing is going to happen before training camp breaks because there aren't any moves to be had.... once training camp breaks and teams start seeing what they've got in real time, there may be a cap casualty or roster trimming which may open up some other options.   These aren't ideal because of the fact that they're cast offs, but as a stop gap measure, or a kick the tires situation, what could it hurt?  I'm assuming LG is our primary focus in next years draft.  

 

Well said. 

[skins_warrior]

On 5/8/2018 at 2:11 PM, KillBill26 said:

 

 

What I meant was that I don't feel many players around the league will be as optimistic as I am as far as the team the Redskins will have in 2018.  So Jahri Evans may pass on signing with the Redskins for the 2018 season due to his low expectatione...

 

...And I hear you on the frustration with the LG position; I loved the idea of getting a Will Hernandez or Billy Price for the interior of the line.  But it didn't work out and we took the best player on the board at the time.  I know Payne pick is debatable, and trading with the Saints to move back and get a guard at end of first round would have been another route I would have supported, but they chose another path.  And that path took a porous run defense and upgraded it significantly.

 

As far as upgrading LG specifically, in recent years:

 

2013 - entered offseason as #1 rushing team, therefore upgrading o-line not a priority

2014 - signed Lauvao to a fairly generous contract (a big swing and miss, but an attempt to upgrade)

2015 - 5th overall pick on a guard, so interior o-line definitely was made a priority

 

Not much has been done regarding LG position last three offseasons, I can see your frustration, but it makes me think of a "rob Peter to pay Paul" situation.  I think they have a lot of good young talent, and if they used Richardson's money to upgrade at LG, we would be talking about how frustrating it is they ignored the WR position.  My point being: I love the methodical approach to improving this team across the board, and naturally some areas will be addressed sooner than others if you are disciplined enough to not give out bad contracts and not reach for need over BPA in the draft.  When I look at the big picture, I believe we are heading in the right direction. 

 

As I mentioned in my post above, we can afford to bring everybody back in 2019 if we choose.  Just for s&g, looking at our current roster along with 2019 mock draft on draftsite, let's say we have 20th pick and take  Ross Pierschbacher, guard from Alabama (because we have to take a Bama guy in the 1st right??) in the 1st round and options such as C - Alec Eberle, CBs such as Julian Love or Michael Jackson, etc. in the 2nd.  With the biggest hole on our roster (LG) being upgraded, wouldn't you look at the roster and say: Wow, we have a lot of young talent, depth across the board, and good balance across positional groups across the roster.  Is there a glaring hole at that point in time as big as our current one at LG?  I don't believe so, and would be thrilled about the roster overall.

 

https://www.draftsite.com/nfl/mock-draft/2019/

 

Good points. The overall thought process makes sense to me.

[bird_1972]

We need to sign some depth to shore up LG. 

 

 

[skins_warrior]

On 5/11/2018 at 1:06 PM, Master Blaster said:

I’ve always thought the best line would be:

 

LT Williams

LG Moses

C Roullier

RG Scherff

RT Nseke

 

Won’t happen but I remember when Moses first got here he said he felt most comfortable on the left side. 

 

Solid suggestion. Moses is paid too much for what he does at RT. Why not being the offensive line more value by bringing him to LG. Play Nseke or Christian at RT.

[skins_warrior]

On 5/12/2018 at 10:40 AM, RWJ said:

Yes, someone told me that Boone would be a mistake so IF we need to trade one of our 2019 picks for a sure fire OG with a team that has a bountiful amount than let's do so.  We need to fill this position with someone we know can play the position rather than messing around with who's on our roster now.  

 

Bingo. Trade for Lang from DET. 

[bird_1972]

8 hours ago, skins_warrior said:

 

Bingo. Trade for Lang from DET. 

 

What do you think it would take to pry him loose off that roster?

[OVCChairman]

9 hours ago, skins_warrior said:

 

Bingo. Trade for Lang from DET. 

 

 

I don't think we can afford him... he's a cap hit this year of almost $11 mil and almost $12 mil next year.   If we can make it work, rock and roll.  Injury past and a high cap number might be dicey.  

[skinny21]

10 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

I don't think we can afford him... he's a cap hit this year of almost $11 mil and almost $12 mil next year.   If we can make it work, rock and roll.  Injury past and a high cap number might be dicey.  

Actually, we wouldn’t have to cover the bonuses, so it would be 8 and 8.5 the next two years.  Still pretty steep though considering our cap situation.  

[OVCChairman]

2 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Actually, we wouldn’t have to cover the bonuses, so it would be 8 and 8.5 the next two years.  Still pretty steep though considering our cap situation.  

 

 

Yeah, still a big pill to swallow.  I would imagine we'd have to offer an extension and maybe re-work the deal if we were going to give up any real assets.  

[bowhunter]

12 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

Yeah, still a big pill to swallow.  I would imagine we'd have to offer an extension and maybe re-work the deal if we were going to give up any real assets.  

Sadly, we don't enough enough depth at any other position to be trading away assets. We'd be robbing Peter to pay Paul

[OVCChairman]

6 minutes ago, bowhunter said:

Sadly, we don't enough enough depth at any other position to be trading away assets. We'd be robbing Peter to pay Paul

 

 

Yeah the only one I would really be ok with would be Jordan Reed... and it could work.  Financially they're almost identical, so the cap could work.  Reed when healthy is a 1st round talent grade, but he's never really healthy.  They have the depth to be able to take a chance at a dynamic guy like Reed and he wouldn't be asked to run block hardly at all.  Who knows, it could work?

[bowhunter]

19 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

Yeah the only one I would really be ok with would be Jordan Reed... and it could work.  Financially they're almost identical, so the cap could work.  Reed when healthy is a 1st round talent grade, but he's never really healthy.  They have the depth to be able to take a chance at a dynamic guy like Reed and he wouldn't be asked to run block hardly at all.  Who knows, it could work?

That would leave us with an aging VD and Sprinkle. I would think that Smith would prefer to have a Reed/Kalis combo over Sprinkle/Lang. When healthy, Reed is an elite talent that would be hard to fill. We didn't make any upgrades at either TE or LG this year, and both will already need to be addressed next offseason.

[OVCChairman]

13 minutes ago, bowhunter said:

That would leave us with an aging VD and Sprinkle. I would think that Smith would prefer to have a Reed/Kalis combo over Sprinkle/Lang. When healthy, Reed is an elite talent that would be hard to fill. We didn't make any upgrades at either TE or LG this year, and both will already need to be addressed next offseason.

 

 

Oh absolutely... just trying to look at what MIGHT be needed to make it work. I prefer a healthy Reed over anyone in the league honestly (except maybe Gronk).  I just wonder how much Reed is going to be healthy, and how much longer he has value.  The guy is a concussion away from possible retirement.  Personal side of things, I root for him, I love having him, and I really want to keep him.  Business side of things... I don't know if the juice is worth the squeeze, and a top tier starting LG (yes, i understand has injury past as well) is worth more to me than J Reed for half a season.  That said,  I understand Lang for a full season is no guarantee so it would just be which one you have more confidence in being available.  

[Why am I Mr. Pink?]

HELL NO .... I would be strongly against adding another HUGE contract to the guard position. If we added Lang, we'd have 2 of the top 16 contracts for guards in 2018. For 2019, wed have 2 of the 6 highest paid guards. 

 

Guard is NOT where you spend your cap space imo. We're already cap heavy at TE, 2nd highest cap % to position. 

 

We need a Chris Chester or Randy Thomas type addition. Solid vet making middle of the road type money. 

 

You dont over pay for guards. We already have a top 3 guard in Scherff. We have to show Scherff the money anyway before his option year 12.5 cap hits. Do we want to give Scherff's money to Lang? Ill be damned if we sign both. 

[bird_1972]

1 hour ago, Why am I Mr. Pink? said:

HELL NO .... I would be strongly against adding another HUGE contract to the guard position. If we added Lang, we'd have 2 of the top 16 contracts for guards in 2018. For 2019, wed have 2 of the 6 highest paid guards. 

 

Guard is NOT where you spend your cap space imo. We're already cap heavy at TE, 2nd highest cap % to position. 

 

We need a Chris Chester or Randy Thomas type addition. Solid vet making middle of the road type money. 

 

You dont over pay for guards. We already have a top 3 guard in Scherff. We have to show Scherff the money anyway before his option year 12.5 cap hits. Do we want to give Scherff's money to Lang? Ill be damned if we sign both. 

 

Fair enough. 

 

We should still draft one next year, though.