mcsluggo

is Trumpism helping or harming the position of Christianity in America?

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7 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

My view is from pretty much every Christian I have known.  And I'm not basing this on "oh well they told a little lie so they aren't Christians."  Hell, I can start with views on immigration and that knocks most of them off the board right away.

 

Two things.

- Don't let anecdotal evidence alone shape your world view.

- Maybe you need a better circle of acquaintances.

 

;)

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@Epochalypse I'm coming at this as someone who believes Jesus Christ is my savior but have a very deep disgust for those who I consider to be warping the teachings of Christ for their own nefarious purposes.  I don't really care to analyze what percent of Christians are like that (or perhaps not quite to that level, but still full on hypocrisy), other than way more than enough from my experience to know that I'm neither surprised nor offended by those who hold a dim view of all or almost all Christians.  At the same time I understand your frustrations, because it pains me too.

 

But looking at other groups that I disdain, such as Bernie Bros or Trumpers, one of my biggest frustration is the unwillingness of the normal, sane supporters of Sanders or Trump to call out the stupid, idiotic, and bigoted members who supposedly stand on their side.  Just as I think normal supporters of Sanders and Trump should be the most offended and vociferous in condemnation of the idiots among their leaders and ranks, shouldn't normal Christians (whether they be 1%, 5%, or 99%) be the most outraged and vocal in condemning the idiot Christians?  

 

You may be extremely frustrated as someone who sees the problem as Christianity getting a bad rap due to a few bad apples and converse and tell people why that's not true or representative.  But perhaps the only way for good Christians to prove their case is by actually showing others that you follow as best you can what's being preached and condemning the blatant hypocrisy of others who ply on faith to gain power and influence.  

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59 minutes ago, Dan T. said:

Dang Llevron, you are way off base my man. 

 

I appreciate that. 

 

@Epochalypse I really wasn't trying to be a jerk in the beginning but im not all flawless so my apologies for going there. This stuff really really upsets me and something about your tone set me off. Thats a me thing not a you thing. 

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2 minutes ago, bearrock said:

@Epochalypse I'm coming at this as someone who believes Jesus Christ is my savior but have a very deep disgust for those who I consider to be warping the teachings of Christ for their own nefarious purposes.  I don't really care to analyze what percent of Christians are like that (or perhaps not quite to that level, but still full on hypocrisy), other than way more than enough from my experience to know that I'm neither surprised nor offended by those who hold a dim view of all or almost all Christians.  At the same time I understand your frustrations, because it pains me too.

 

But looking at other groups that I disdain, such as Bernie Bros or Trumpers, one of my biggest frustration is the unwillingness of the normal, sane supporters of Sanders or Trump to call out the stupid, idiotic, and bigoted members who supposedly stand on their side.  Just as I think normal supporters of Sanders and Trump should be the most offended and vociferous in condemnation of the idiots among their leaders and ranks, shouldn't normal Christians (whether they be 1%, 5%, or 99%) be the most outraged and vocal in condemning the idiot Christians?  

 

You may be extremely frustrated as someone who sees the problem as Christianity getting a bad rap due to a few bad apples and converse and tell people why that's not true or representative.  But perhaps the only way for good Christians to prove their case is by actually showing others that you follow as best you can what's being preached and condemning the blatant hypocrisy of others who ply on faith to gain power and influence.  

I agree with you in large part but there are Christians like myself that are calling it out, but they are not getting credit, are getting drowned out, or not getting the coverage they need because it's not a trendy narrative, or frankly because there are always bigger news stories with this current administration.  The other issue is that the current political clime doesn't allow for rational discourse.  Everything is all one side or the other.  If you are a democrat, you want to take everyone's guns.  If you are a republican you are a racist.  If you are a Christian you are a hypocrite.  This binning, or categorization of people is what allows racism and sexism and hate of all types to exist because it places a significant line in the sand that people can use to immediately decide who you are and what you believe.

 

As long as I and like-minded Christians are binned with the "Christians", the ranks of Christians that feel compelled to side with Trump will be larger than they deserve to be, because rational Christians are stuck between the distaste they have for Trump or the abuse and hatred they get from the other side for their most important beliefs.  I am literally on here expressing my disgust with Trump and getting attacked anyway.  A better tact would be welcoming every Christian that finally sees the light and recognizes that Trump does not equal Christians, by not attacking their religion and faith but rather pointing out the real problem, Trump and his cohorts.  As long as Christians are getting attacked, it fuels the accusations corrupt church leaders use to make the argument.  Take the ISIS way.  ISIS seems to think if they just hate you enough you'll eventually come around to their way of thinking.  How many of you are jumping on the ISIS bandwagon?  Probably not a lot, because believing that hating and abusing someone enough that at some point they agree with you is a flawed plan.

 

But if you respect their beliefs and focus on where the disconnects are between Trump and Jesus' teachings, your chances of taking that support from the Republican side is significantly damaged.

2 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

I appreciate that. 

 

@Epochalypse I really wasn't trying to be a jerk in the beginning but im not all flawless so my apologies for going there. This stuff really really upsets me and something about your tone set me off. Thats a me thing not a you thing. 

Thank you.  I apologize as well and for my part, I will also be more selective in my wording to avoid further negative interactions.

 

I hope you realize my goal here is to improve our chances of making Trump a one-term president.

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1 hour ago, Dan T. said:

 

- Maybe you need a better circle of acquaintances.

 

;)

 

Maybe Christ needs a better circle of followers. 

 

 

I think the comparison to the Trumsters is pretty good.  Sure there are probably still a handful of good, reasonable people.  But when you have interacted with enough, it is reasonable to conclude the vast majority are just loony.

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Anyone want to consider that God is sending a plague to America in order to save its democracy from a wannabe tyrant...

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It's not "Trump and Christians" its "GOP and Christians".  As long as the GOP can use abortion to gaining "Christian support", they will. 

 

I go to a church that seems to be backed by the right-wing "Christians should be involved in politics" funding... we have had Charlie Kirk come and speak.  I agree with many of his ideas from the pulpit... because he is very careful about saying he is a Christian running a 503c (or whatever it is) and steering clear of "everyone vote for Trump".  He even spoke about the need for better public policy re:adoption and even a nationwide program to make adoption easier (omg is that socialism). But when I read his tweets and see his podcast (never listen to them), it just appears to be a GOP outreach arm for the youth.  Why?  Because he has GOP Senators on his podcast.  

 

I believe the founders believed in a creator... I don't believe that they named that creator "Jesus Christ" the way someone like George W Bush would or have the same "theological basis" someone in the year 2000 would.  

 

 

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3 hours ago, Riggo-toni said:

Anyone want to consider that God is sending a plague to America in order to save its democracy from a wannabe tyrant...

That'd require there to be a God.

 

So no.

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My two cents:

 

"Christianity" doesn't have a problem...the human race has a problem. 

 

TL;DR  this is LITERALLY what the gospel of Christ is all about.

 

Bonus: the intertwining of politics and spiritual beliefs in this country is cringeworthy at best.

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I keep thinking if Jesus was alive to die and heard Republicans talking about sacrificing lives to save the economy he'd go down to the market and start flipping some tables.

 

The religious right is really preaching economy over grandmas, grandpas, and the rest of us. :shakinghead:

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15 hours ago, Burgold said:

I keep thinking if Jesus was alive to die and heard Republicans talking about sacrificing lives to save the economy he'd go down to the market and start flipping some tables.

 

The religious right is really preaching economy over grandmas, grandpas, and the rest of us. :shakinghead:

They just say he's the Fake Jesus.  The real Jesus is Donald "Jesus" Trump.

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On 3/13/2020 at 10:13 AM, Riggo-toni said:

Anyone want to consider that God is sending a plague to America in order to save its democracy from a wannabe tyrant...

It will only work if that tyrant dies from the plague.

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16 hours ago, Burgold said:

I keep thinking if Jesus was alive to die and heard Republicans talking about sacrificing lives to save the economy he'd go down to the market and start flipping some tables.

 

The religious right is really preaching economy over grandmas, grandpas, and the rest of us. :shakinghead:

Shouldn't be a surprise.  Wasn't too long ago they were upset that an arms deal with Saudi Arabia would be soured by their crown prince having an American* Journalist murdered via dismemberment.

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4 hours ago, Rdskns2000 said:

It will only work if that tyrant dies from the plague.

The Pharoh survived the seven plagues. Not all his children did.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Rdskns2000 said:

It will only work if that tyrant dies from the plague.

I was being facetious, but... Sennacherib didn't die from the plague sent through his camp, but it did end the siege of Jerusalem (at least according to biblical narrative; the Assyrian records provide an extensive list of tribute extorted from Hezekiah).

Edited by Riggo-toni
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7 hours ago, Rdskns2000 said:

They just say he's the Fake Jesus.  The real Jesus is Donald "Jesus" Trump.

 

This would 100% happen.

 

If Jesus came down from heaven, and everyone saw it, and knew it was for real, but he then said "oh, and MAGA is bull****. Seriously, did you guys not read a single ****ing word I said?" they'd call him Fake and start screaming for his head. And they would see absolutely no irony whatsoever in it. 

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Posted (edited)

 

On 3/10/2020 at 2:51 PM, Epochalypse said:

I agree with you in large part but there are Christians like myself that are calling it out, but they are not getting credit, are getting drowned out, or not getting the coverage they need because it's not a trendy narrative, or frankly because there are always bigger news stories with this current administration.  The other issue is that the current political clime doesn't allow for rational discourse.  Everything is all one side or the other.  If you are a democrat, you want to take everyone's guns.  If you are a republican you are a racist.  If you are a Christian you are a hypocrite.  This binning, or categorization of people is what allows racism and sexism and hate of all types to exist because it places a significant line in the sand that people can use to immediately decide who you are and what you believe.

 

As long as I and like-minded Christians are binned with the "Christians", the ranks of Christians that feel compelled to side with Trump will be larger than they deserve to be, because rational Christians are stuck between the distaste they have for Trump or the abuse and hatred they get from the other side for their most important beliefs.  I am literally on here expressing my disgust with Trump and getting attacked anyway.  A better tact would be welcoming every Christian that finally sees the light and recognizes that Trump does not equal Christians, by not attacking their religion and faith but rather pointing out the real problem, Trump and his cohorts.  As long as Christians are getting attacked, it fuels the accusations corrupt church leaders use to make the argument.  Take the ISIS way.  ISIS seems to think if they just hate you enough you'll eventually come around to their way of thinking.  How many of you are jumping on the ISIS bandwagon?  Probably not a lot, because believing that hating and abusing someone enough that at some point they agree with you is a flawed plan.

 

But if you respect their beliefs and focus on where the disconnects are between Trump and Jesus' teachings, your chances of taking that support from the Republican side is significantly damaged.

Thank you.  I apologize as well and for my part, I will also be more selective in my wording to avoid further negative interactions.

 

I hope you realize my goal here is to improve our chances of making Trump a one-term president.

My, how the tables have turned. It wasn’t too long ago that Muslims were the ones in your position. Moreover, it was/is primarily evangelical Xtians leading the chorus and ignoring the moderate Muslim groups speaking out against terrorism.

 

That said, I think there’s a problem endemic to religion in general. Most, of not all of them set up an in/out group dynamic backed by an all powerful, omniscient being that gives the old wink, wink to doing horrible stuff while providing cover for it in certain passages and dogma. The idea is to essentially gaslight the out groups while doing whatever the in group needs to do to gain/keep dominance. So in cases where the in group isn’t threatened, the edict to love everyone mostly applies. But let the outgroup start to get a little power and all of a sudden things change.

 

Sorry, but I’m not falling for the tree falling in the woods gaslight routine. If almost every adherent of a religion acts in a certain way, contrary to the teachings, either something was left unconsidered by the omniscient creator in crafting the message to his creation, or religions are in the vast majority of cases incapable of overcoming our baser instincts.

 

23 hours ago, Burgold said:

I keep thinking if Jesus was alive to die and heard Republicans talking about sacrificing lives to save the economy he'd go down to the market and start flipping some tables.

 

The religious right is really preaching economy over grandmas, grandpas, and the rest of us. :shakinghead:

It’s what they’ve always done. As Napoleon said, “Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.”

Edited by The Sisko
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4 hours ago, Burgold said:

The Pharoh survived the seven plagues. Not all his children did.

Pharoh Trump wouldn't care. He already has wife #4 lined up; if the plague took Melania.

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On 3/26/2020 at 10:39 AM, Burgold said:

I keep thinking if Jesus was alive to die and heard Republicans talking about sacrificing lives to save the economy he'd go down to the market and start flipping some tables.

 

The religious right is really preaching economy over grandmas, grandpas, and the rest of us. :shakinghead:

 

I think he'd start with the church's challenging people's faith to get them come in person still and religious folk selling fake cures for this virus. If I'm not mistaken, Jesus was flipping tables in the Temple of Jerusalem itself because some of them were treating it like just another place to do business.

 

This will be second week in a row our church does Sunday service via Skype, it pained some of them that don't believe in evolution.

 

But the pastor does Cybersecurity for the VA so I'm watching him try to balance his faith with CDC guidance in real-time, he has my respect.

 

 

https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2020/03/26/virginia-pastor-who-said-covid-19-was-anti-trump-mass-hysteria-dies-of-virus/

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1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

This would 100% happen.

 

If Jesus came down from heaven, and everyone saw it, and knew it was for real, but he then said "oh, and MAGA is bull****. Seriously, did you guys not read a single ****ing word I said?" they'd call him Fake and start screaming for his head. And they would see absolutely no irony whatsoever in it. 

He'd be crucified. 

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1 minute ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

He'd be crucified. 

Well, Jesus has some experience with that.

I wonder what they do, if Jesus had lightening strike Don.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/10/2020 at 10:33 AM, TheGreatBuzz said:

Sorry.  I thought it was clear that was an educated guess.  But it is a GUESS I feel very confident about.  Funny that as I am writing this in the smoke pit listening to a girl say "I know this isn't the most Christian thing but....." then went on about how it was okay that she cheated because her husband did it first.

 

And to be clear, I am GUESSING 95% of Christians should be described as false Christians. 

 

At some point, you are what your followers are.  Whether you want to be or not.

 

 

you (and this post could be aimed at about 50 people in this thread)  view christians different than EVERY SINGLE other group, and are completely blind to the fact that you do so.

 

 

there are pro-poor people that still drink $50 bottles of wine... but NOBODY thinks that this means that it is disgusting for people to be pro poor.

there are "fiscal conservatives" that vote republican (the OPPOSITE of fiscal conservatism)--- but this doesn't automatically mean that a stricter budget is bad

the fact that there are cheating spouses doesn't mean that nobody should ever get married....

there are environmentalists that refuse to carpool...

there are a BAZILLION examples.   you can make the example for every single ideal that anybody anywhere has ever espoused.... 

 

 

Christianity (in its teachings) puts forth an impossibly high standard (the only person that has ever truly been Christlike... is Christ himself),  and then Christianity explicitly TELLS us that it is an impossible ideal, and that NOBODY will EVERY live up to it.... but it is still an ideal that they say is good to strive for.

 

but you also have 65%-plus of the country ostensibly as christians ... this in and of itself has a BUNCH of implications:

  • ----- many really really are "christian" just as a happenstanse of birth...they have always been told that is their team...so they "root for that team", without any thought whatsoever about what it means.       take 65% of 350 million people divided by ANY characteristic/affiliation you choose, and you are going to find a pretty big group of flaming piece -of-**** dickheads.     (including fiscal conservatives, environmentalists, married people...etc...)   it just IS. 
  • ---- take a group, and carve out a 65% majority team, again, by ANY basis, and see what sort of flies that sort of grouping of power attracts?   there are alot of chritians,  there will be a lot of people that exploit that dominant position no matter WHAT Christians believe or don't believe.    there are a ****load of assholes out there (like Jim Bakker) that are zooming in to take advantage of the masses of resources that have sprouted up because of fighting the corona virus.... does that mean that fighting corona is therefore evil?  no...that would be an idiotic position to take.

 

personally... i can't convince myself to buy what Christianity is selling, just because i know human nature.... the whole story of a god that loves us and will reunite us forever in happiness with our loved ones after we die is just TOO GOOD... and i know that if it didn't actually exist, somebody would've made it up by now to take advantage of how much people WANT it to exist.   But i like the story, and I wold like for it to exist, and i envy those that can TRULY believe it.... and it REALLY doesn't make someone an asshole for believing it.    Christians are no more or less hypocritical than the rest of us.... they basically are just the same amount hypocritcal as every one else   

 

but you (and many others) are  MUCH MORE willing to smear the entire idea of Christianity than you are willing to smear any other group, because for some reason you hold it up to a higher standard than you are willing to hold yourself up to (or hold anybody else up to) .... and it leads you to call christians  hypocritical  .....

 

.....................can you not see the hypocrisy in that?     Really???!!

 

 

  • do you know what you are if you look at something a black person does and say "black people suck"  ??  ...you are a racisit.
  • do you know what you are if you look at something a woman does and say "women are skanks"?  .... you are a misogynistic asshole.
  • do you know what you are if you look at something an immigrant does and say "immigrants are rapists and criiminals"  ??  ......   you are a nativist p o s.

 

 

 

and perhaps the WORST part of it is that this intellectual y feeble,  hypocritical type reasoning that seems to be gettign more and more and MORE prevalent.... is just enough of a kernal of truth to feed the oooohhhhh soooo annoying  christian persecution complex.      the war against christmas?    it exists as a thing because the Jim Bakkers of the world can point at people like YOU.   

 

The bigots on each side feed each other, and can't live without each other.    There could be no Netanyahu, if he didn't have and Assad to point to.... and vice versa.   it is a self perpetuating poison.    

 

 

Edited by mcsluggo
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@mcsluggo  Just making sure I understand you, you are saying that we judge christians unfairly because it is too large of a group to judge fairly, many are taught they are christians without really knowing what that means, by my standard Christ is the only christian because everyone else is flawed, etc?

 

Yea, I don't buy that.  One, THEY are the ones setting that standard.  THEY are the ones setting the rules for their group and then not following them.

 

21 minutes ago, mcsluggo said:

there are pro-poor people that still drink $50 bottles of wine... but NOBODY thinks that this means that it is disgusting for people to be pro poor.

there are "fiscal conservatives" that vote republican (the OPPOSITE of fiscal conservatism)--- but this doesn't automatically mean that a stricter budget is bad

the fact that there are cheating spouses doesn't mean that nobody should ever get married....

there are environmentalists that refuse to carpool...

I'm not sure wtf you are trying to say here.

 

22 minutes ago, mcsluggo said:

Christianity (it its teachings) puts forth an impossibly high standard (the only person that has ever truly been Christlike... is Christ himself),  and then Christianity explicitly TELLS us that it is an impossible ideal, and that NOBODY will EVERY live up to it.... but it is still an ideal that they say is good to strive for.

I don't think any of us were trying to say that unless you live a perfect life, than you aren't a real christian.  But can we admit this is a wide gap between, say, being perfect and molesting little boys?  Or being perfect and commiting fraud?  Or being perfect and HATING another group of people soley because the color of their skin?  Hell the last one takes out a large chunk of christens by itself.

 

25 minutes ago, mcsluggo said:

but you also have 65%-plus of the country ostensibly as christians ... this in and of itself has a BUNCH of implications:

  • ----- many really really are "christian" just as a happenstanse of birth...they have always been told that is their team...so they "root for that team", without any thought whatsoever about what it means.       take 65% of 350 million people divided by ANY characteristic/affiliation you choose, and you are going to find a pretty big group of flaming piece -of-**** dickheads.     (including fiscal conservatives, environmentalists, married people...etc...)   it just IS. 

I think you are just confirming what we are saying.  Here you admit that a large part o christians aren't really living a good christian life but instead just going along with "their team".

 

27 minutes ago, mcsluggo said:

---- take a group, and carve out a 65% majority team, again, by ANY basis, and see what sort of flies that sort of grouping of power attracts?   there are alot of chritians,  there will be a lot of people that exploit that dominant position no matter WHAT Christians believe or don't believe.    there are a ****load of assholes out there (like Jim Bakker) that are zooming in to take advantage of the masses of resources that have sprouted up because of fighting the corona virus

Okay, I think you're kind of agreeing with us here.

 

27 minutes ago, mcsluggo said:

does that mean that fighting corona is therefore evil?  no...that would be an idiotic position to take.

aaaaaannnddddd.........you went of the rails.  How is anyone saying this?

 

28 minutes ago, mcsluggo said:

Christians are no more or less hypocritical than the rest of us.... they basically are just the same amount hypocritcal as every one else   

I'd argue more hypocritical but even if I just agree with your number, we are not the ones setting as high a standard for our "group".  Problem is a large portion of christians (note I'm not saying all or even the majority) like to look down their nose at non-chrisitians.  Or even other christians.  Seen any correlation between the number evangelicals and the amount of hate for immigrants from very pro-christian countries?

 

31 minutes ago, mcsluggo said:

but you (and many others) are  MUCH MORE willing to smear the entire idea of Christianity than you are any other group, because for some reason you hold it up to a higher standard than you are willing to hold yourself (or anybody else) up to .... and it leads you to call christians  hypocritical  .....

THEY set the standard, not me.  That is a large part of the point that you seem to be missing.

 

33 minutes ago, mcsluggo said:
  • do you know what you are if you look at something a black person does and say "black people suck"  ??  ...you are a racisit.
  • do you know what you are if you look at something a woman does and say "women are skanks"?  .... you are a misogynistic asshole.
  • do you know what you are if you look at something an immigrant does and say "immigrants are rapists and criiminals"  ??  ......   you are a nativist p o s.

Can you show a book or set of books dedicated to these specific groups that sets out rules for them to follow?

 

 

Gotta stop here.  Something just popped up at work.

 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Problem is a large portion of christians (note I'm not saying all or even the majority) like to look down their nose at non-chrisitians.  Or even other christians.

So the solution is to look down your nose at all Christians.

 

Makes sense.

 

Not hypocritical in any way.

 

Edit: this is sarcasm.

Edited by Epochalypse

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